Reinstating an old hot tub.

[Jskiwi]

We have inherited a house with an inground pool and hot tub, separate from each other. Two bodies of water.

The equipment for the spa caught fire five odd years ago and my father-in-law disconnected the spa and left it empty. He had a heat pump installed on the pool. Pool is on an intermatic time clock.

The spa is fiberglass and set into the concrete deck and holds water. It has one air button, I'm guessing for the blower.

The plumbing is still close to the equipment area and we want to reinstate the hot tub.

The 100 amp sub panel has a double 60amp for the heat pump, double pole 30amp for the timer and pump, 20amp for the pool lights, and 2 20 amp breakers for the boat dock lift and GFI. Full draw is around 50 amps when everything is turned on and running, including the boat lift.

I'm wondering if I'm better to change the 100 amp sub panel to a Pentair intellicenter load center with i8PS and use the existing heat pump to heat the spa or keep the pool and spa separate, add another timer and small 50-61k BTU heat pump (20-25 amp breaker required).

My concern is controlling the actuators without an easytouch, or similar, then something going wrong and the pool draining through hot tub.

I have a friend that's a licensed electrician that will do the wiring, and I'm a plumber.

Pentair load center $2600ish
Raypak 61 BTU heat pump $2500

Trying to avoid both but realize it may be the best option as I'd be able to remove the air switch and control lights, blower, heat, etc.

 

[Jimrahbe]

J,

Sounds interesting, but I am not at all sure I fully understand. Either the Spa is a separate body of water, or it is not. If not, the spa would have its own equipment and the pool would have its own equipment.

If the spa is a separate body of water, then there would be no plumbing between the spa and the pool. Is that how is it today? Do you plan to make it one body of water? Do you plan to have one set of equipment or two?

If one body of water, you have to make sure that the spa water runs into the pool by a spillover or by some plumbing system.

Tell us more about your plan and maybe we can provide some better answers..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[ajw22]

Post pics of your pool and spa and your equipment pad.

To make your pool and spa a single body of water and use one set of equipment with actuators you need for the spa to spillover into the pool.

To control two bodies of water you need the IntelliCenter i10D.

Are your pool lights on a GFCI?

 

[Jskiwi]

The pool and spa are both separate. The Spa does not spill into the pool.

One pool company was telling me I could heat both spa and pool from the one (pool) heat pump, although I'd have to control the valves manually which doesn't work for me.

 

[ajw22]

One pool company was telling me I could heat both spa and pool from the one (pool) heat pump, although I'd have to control the valves manually which doesn't work for me.

If you were thinking of going ahead with that setup I would ask for a plumbing diagram of how they propose to do the pipes and valves.

With a few valves you could bypass the heater from one body of water and connect it to the other. I think you will feel like a submarine operator.

 

[Jskiwi]

If you were thinking of going ahead with that setup I would ask for a plumbing diagram of how they propose to do the pipes and valves.

With a few valves you could bypass the heater from one body of water and connect it to the other. I think you will feel like a submarine operator.

HA HA, I did ask and they never replied

 

[Jskiwi]

Lights are not on a GFCI breaker, guessing that should be the first thing to fix

 

[ajw22]

Lights are not on a GFCI breaker, guessing that should be the first thing to fix

Pumps and lights for the pool and spa are required to be on GFCI by current NEC.

 

[ajw22]

Your Aquatherm HP manual is at...

Manuals - Aquatherm Heat Pumps

CURRENT MANUALS Whisper Heat Dial Operation Manual For New Grey/Black Units Download \\\\\ Whisper Heat Quick Start Guide For Serial Numbers Starting With 1903 or Higher Download Whisper Heat Dial Installation Manual For New Grey/Black Units Download \\\\\ Whisper Heat Installation Manual For...

www.aquathermheatpumps.com

You do not have a bypass valve on the HP to keep flow rate through it under 70 GPM.



What model pump do you have? The pump on 120V or 240V?

Be careful if you upgrade to a larger VS pump in the future.

 

[bradgray]

The pool and spa are both separate. The Spa does not spill into the pool.

One pool company was telling me I could heat both spa and pool from the one (pool) heat pump, although I'd have to control the valves manually which doesn't work for me.

As far as running two individuated bodies of water with one set of equipment, it can be done, but is not ideal as has been mentioned.
We have a fiberglass PB in our area who has built several pools this way, and we have 4 of these accounts. In one case, the spa is 80ft from the pool

You will want to invest in full automation as you've suggested. Intellicenter is probably overkill, but a great choice. You would then schedule Pool and Spa modes to alternate the back and forth throughout the day to keep both bodies filtered and heated to your liking. The KEY would be that you need to ensure you set the filter pump to OFF during valve changes. Otherwise there will be water trade between the two and that's where the water level issues begin without the spillover.

In essence, neither body of water "knows" the other exists. The automation and equipment services them both, but separately. Kind of like a backhoe; you're either at the loader or the digger, but never at the same time.

 

[Jskiwi]

Your Aquatherm HP manual is at...

Manuals - Aquatherm Heat Pumps

CURRENT MANUALS Whisper Heat Dial Operation Manual For New Grey/Black Units Download \\\\\ Whisper Heat Quick Start Guide For Serial Numbers Starting With 1903 or Higher Download Whisper Heat Dial Installation Manual For New Grey/Black Units Download \\\\\ Whisper Heat Installation Manual For...

www.aquathermheatpumps.com

You do not have a bypass valve on the HP to keep flow rate through it under 70 GPM.

View attachment 465869

What model pump do you have? The pump on 120V or 240V?

Be careful if you upgrade to a larger VS pump in the future.

Thanks Allen,

The pump model sticker is unrecognizable, it has an A O Smith motor, 240v.

The house was built in 1998

 

[Jskiwi]

As far as running two individuated bodies of water with one set of equipment, it can be done, but is not ideal as has been mentioned.
We have a fiberglass PB in our area who has built several pools this way, and we have 4 of these accounts. In one case, the spa is 80ft from the pool

You will want to invest in full automation as you've suggested. Intellicenter is probably overkill, but a great choice. You would then schedule Pool and Spa modes to alternate the back and forth throughout the day to keep both bodies filtered and heated to your liking. The KEY would be that you need to ensure you set the filter pump to OFF during valve changes. Otherwise there will be water trade between the two and that's where the water level issues begin without the spillover.

In essence, neither body of water "knows" the other exists. The automation and equipment services them both, but separately. Kind of like a backhoe; you're either at the loader or the digger, but never at the same time.

Thanks, Brad

What automation would you suggest? Easytouch? I'm familiar with and comfortable with Pentair.

Could flow switches be added to insure the pool doesn't drain out through the hot tub?

 

[bradgray]

Thanks, Brad

What automation would you suggest? Easytouch? I'm familiar with and comfortable with Pentair.

Could flow switches be added to insure the pool doesn't drain out through the hot tub?

In order of cost, Easytouch PL4, Easytouch 4 and Intellicenter would all be just fine for your situation. Though I lost track of powered features you need, so if it's more than 4, you'll need the Easytouch 8 or Intellicenter. You'll also need 2 actuators which may come with your panel depending on the kit you buy. You'll need Screenlogic for Easytouch if you want phone control; Intellicenter has this built in.

I'm not fully clear on your goal to prevent transfer of pool water to the spa with a flow switch. Could you describe that further?

As long as the pump is turning off during a valve change, you won't have imbalanced water transfer. Also, I've seen very, very few actuators fail and that would be the only other situation where you may see it draw from one and give to the other.

 

[1poolman1]

Thanks Allen,

The pump model sticker is unrecognizable, it has an A O Smith motor, 240v.

The house was built in 1998

Pump is a Hayward SuperPump. If you are going to use that pump for a heated spa, you should replace those standard-PVC male adapters that are going into and out of the pump with hi-temp pump unions. Outside the fact that they are both threaded into the pump too far, they will start to leak once they get to spa temperature. Standard PVC threaded fittings soften and will actually shrink under the pressure of the installation at about 90f.

Its not hard to do what you want, two separate bodies of water with a single equipment set and no overflow to the pool, with automation. The problem is that when something does go wrong it can get very messy. I set one system up that way 20+ years ago. All worked well for about two years until someone (the customer blamed "the kids") turned the suction-valve actuator "off" (center position of the 3-position switch). Spa was set to filter 3 hours a day (its what they wanted) in the afternoon when no one was home (school/work). They came home to a flooded backyard as the system continued to pull water from the pool and try to put it all into the 800 gallon spa. Fortunately, not a lot of damage beyond a washed-away flower garden and a lot of wasted water.

With automation that will control 4 valve actuators, this could be accomplished with two pump/filter combinations, a single heater, and proper programming. But just because you can do something it is not always best to do it. "Anything that can go wrong will." - Murphy.

 

[guinness]

"Anything that can go wrong will." - Murphy.

You need some type of fail-safe if that happens. Possibly a third valve with actuator downstream on spa return line that moves to overflow when in pool mode. That way if the main return actuator fails it won't allow water into the spa. Not really sure how practicable this solution would be.

The only other thing I can think of is to install a flow sensor on the spa return line and use some customization in conjunction with nodejs-poolController to shutdown system if flow is detected while in pool mode. Nothing is foolproof but it would give you another layer of protection.

 

[bradgray]

Kiwi,

While I think all suggestions here are good, if you're going to share equipment, I would just keep it simple and keep an eye on it. Even if you put a flow sensor on the spa return, the inverse of that coin is the suction valve is the one that moves improperly while in Spa Mode, and you'll still flood the deck.

There will always be a vulnerability, no matter the layers of protection because every valve and every sensor added can still fail. Relying on perfect mechanical and digital technology is inherent in the design you're asking for.

One last option you can consider, is plumbing an acrylic/above-ground hot tub system into it. Given your small spa size, this could be a very realistic alternative.

Something like this: Hydro Quip Outdoor Series Electronic Spa Equipment Pack, Balboa, 1.5HP Pump, Blower, 5.5KW, ES8850-D (SPECIAL ORDER)

PS* Balboa is rock solid. And we've used that website numerous times for spa rebuilds.

If you went this route for your spa plumbing, you wouldn't need automation any longer. So you can update your electrical, keep your pool timer and trade those automation dollars almost straight across for the spa equipment.