Question about Borates for 1st time.

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nikolausp

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Jul 16, 2020
167
Houston, TX
I'm getting ready to figure out how to turn on my SWG for the first time ever, and I have read that borates can help stabilizing things with PH, and also help with potential scale issues on the SWG cell. (i'm also trying to maintain CSI slightly negative to help with that too, which I've read helps).

I've also read about the intricate Borates test, but I gather that it can be a bit tricky.

My basic question is, if I've never added any borax or boric acid to my new pool, is it assumed that my Borates level is ZERO? I thought it would be easiest to just assume it's zero, if that's logical, and add Boric Acid to take it to 50, for the initial Borates increase.
 
If no borax or boric acid has been added then your current borate level is zero. Borates are not a panacea. They are helpful in some very specific circumstances. If you are just starting out with a SWG, I suggest that you delay considering borates. I use 50ppm borates, but my circumstances are unusual. Living in a desert with insane rates of evaporation and fill water with very high alkalinity and calcium levels, means my situation is not typical. The borates reduce the frequency of my acid additions (but then more is needed each time to lower the pH). They help to stabilize the CSI. But they make it much harder to lower my alkalinity. The use of borates is considered an advanced technique for very specific issues.
 
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chiefwej said:
If no borax or boric acid has been added then your current borate level is zero. Borates are not a panacea. They are helpful in some very specific circumstances. If you are just starting out with a SWG, I suggest that you delay considering borates. I use 50ppm borates, but my circumstances are unusual. Living in a desert with insane rates of evaporation and fill water with very high alkalinity and calcium levels, means my situation is not typical. The borates reduce the frequency of my acid additions (but then more is needed each time to lower the pH). They help to stabilize the CSI. But they make it much harder to lower my alkalinity. The use of borates is considered an advanced technique for very specific issues.
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Interesting. That's not at all what I gathered from reading the massive long older threads on Borates. Is Borates no longer recommended? I was looking forward to a more stable PH.

Is there perhaps a more recent thread, that points people towards steering away from Borates?

From what I gathered.... it was basically:

Get pool stable, learn the pool tendencies, get chemistry figured out, if using SWG, get that figured out and stableized. And after all that, if you add boric acid (preferable from what I've read on TFP), then it just kinda makes things more stable with the PH, and can also help to prevent scale in the SWG, with no downsides that I was aware of, as long as you get things dialed in before you add the Boric Acid.

Along that line, what is the most recent currently recommended Borates test? I recall that the test changed a few times, and got refined a couple times.
 
I bought the Boric Acid already a few months ago, in preparation of making my chemistry more stable. If it's not recommended that I use it, I really don't care about the lost cost. I just won't use it. I bought it, based on this website.

I've read a ton on this forum, and thought that Borates could only help me in having a more Trouble Free Pool, if I was willing to do the research and figure it out. I've already bought the chemicals and equipment to do the Borates tests, in fact.

Is Borates no longer recommended except for very specific circumstances ?
 
Borates is one of those things that is not "recommended" by TFP, as in it is not actively encouraged, likely because they are not necessary in the same way that following the FC/CYA chart is deemed critical. But that's not to say they are not helpful for certain things. I think the reason folks hedge / hesitate when talking about borates is just because there are a few flashy promises made about their use that you might be disappointed by, such as "super sparkly" or "softer feeling" water, which are likely more placebo effect than real, so nobody wants to get your hopes up. Everybody loves a magic potion (let's be honest - that's how pool stores make their money), and borate is probably as close to that kind of magic as TFP gets.

What is definitely real, however, is that once added to your water it takes a LOT more acid to move your pH around, but the natural rate of pH change is slowed dramatically also. So over time you'd probably use the same amount, but less manual effort and more consistency.

I have 50ppm and am very happy that I only have to add acid once every ~2 weeks when the pH hits 8, and since I need to add more each time, I'm working in simple quantities like 1/2 gallon at a time vs. measuring out in oz.
 
BenB said:
Borates is one of those things that is not "recommended" by TFP, as in it is not actively encouraged, likely because they are not necessary in the same way that following the FC/CYA chart is deemed critical. But that's not to say they are not helpful for certain things. I think the reason folks hedge / hesitate when talking about borates is just because there are a few flashy promises made about their use that you might be disappointed by, such as "super sparkly" or "softer feeling" water, which are likely more placebo effect than real, so nobody wants to get your hopes up. Everybody loves a magic potion (let's be honest - that's how pool stores make their money), and borate is probably as close to that kind of magic as TFP gets.

What is definitely real, however, is that once added to your water it takes a LOT more acid to move your pH around, but the natural rate of pH change is slowed dramatically also. So over time you'd probably use the same amount, but less manual effort and more consistency.

I have 50ppm and am very happy that I only have to add acid once every ~2 weeks when the pH hits 8, and since I need to add more each time, I'm working in simple quantities like 1/2 gallon at a time vs. measuring out in oz.
Click to expand...

Ok, great, and thank you. This is exactly as I understood, from reading the Borates thread, and your brief explanation makes me feel better about it. I was never searching for that sexy sparkly borates feel, or look. My water is already feeling and looking more perfect than anybody's pool I've been around, with the TFP method. From what I've read, the Borates could only make it even MORE Trouble Free (more stable PH), which would only give me a better buffer than I currently experience. I'm seeking no better water feel, nor magical sparkle, from the Borates. That being said, I have read on this website, that Borates can help reduce scale in the SWG cell, so that is also of interest to me, if true. Thoughts? (note, I also plan on keeping CSI slightly negative, to help with scale).

Again, thank you for your reply.

To you and everybody else, are there any other thoughts on Why or Why I shouldn't consider adding Borates, to stabilize my PH? Can I harm the pool by adding 50 pph? Also, just want to make sure I have the latest and greatest BORATE test. I went through so many posts, and this is the last I found:

New borate drop test at piscines-apollo vs. test strip
 
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So my personal opinion is go for borates but not right away. Learn your pool first. Get you pH stabilized and understand at what TA that happens. If you keep your CSI slightly negative it is very unlikely you will develop scale.

Think of Borates as the advanced class for TFP. Once you get the basics right its a great next step.

Yes, that is the current test. I just got all the stuff except for the BTB which was backordered. I am very excited to test to see what I have left in my pool and add the borates I just got.

Besides having the 50ml beaker is fun, I can now test my TA to a precision of 5ppm. Do I need to, no, but I like doing stuff I dont need to.
 
Katodude said:
So my personal opinion is go for borates but not right away. Learn your pool first. Get you pH stabilized and understand at what TA that happens. If you keep your CSI slightly negative it is very unlikely you will develop scale.

Think of Borates as the advanced class for TFP. Once you get the basics right its a great next step.

Yes, that is the current test. I just got all the stuff except for the BTB which was backordered. I am very excited to test to see what I have left in my pool and add the borates I just got.

Besides having the 50ml beaker is fun, I can now test my TA to a precision of 5ppm. Do I need to, no, but I like doing stuff I dont need to.
Click to expand...

Ya, that's what I was thinking too.... Borates, but down the line a ways after the plaster is maybe at least a year old (it's 6.5 months old, currently). Then, I'd think the PH and TA and everything will be more stable from what I've read, and I'll have the SWG figured out and dialed in, etc.

What would be the 50ml TA test? Would it be 50ml of pool water, 4 drops (R-0007), then 10 drops (R-0008), then count the drops of R-0009, and multiply by 5?
 
I think borates are really helpful if you have a SWG and have somewhat high CH. Last year, I installed a Circupool RJ45+ in my pool and also convinced my friend to get one as well. I did both installs and I take care of both pools. I only monitor her pool once a week like a pool guy would do, but I do it using TFP techniques.

Her pool's CH has been steadily climbing the last couple of years due to high CH in the fill water (350ppm). In March of 2020 when I installed her SWG, her CH was 600ppm so I managed the CSI by reducing both her pH and TA to keep it slightly negative. For whatever reason, it didn't seem to help much. After about the first month with the SWG, I kept finding scale building up on the plates, so I'd have to take the cell apart and hose it out with water EVERY week. Fortunately, the scale was quite fresh, so it didn't require any muriatic acid to clean. Water would clean it every time.

Taking it apart weekly got old in a hurry, so I decided to try borates this spring once it was time to bring the SWG back online. I added 50ppm of borates with boric acid and have been keeping a close eye on it every since. I haven't seen a single sign of any scaling so far this season (almost 4 months in) and the kicker is that her CH is now up to 750ppm after all the refilling from evaporation over the last year.

This fact alone makes the borates worth it IMO.(y)
 
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DeanP66 said:
I think borates are really helpful if you have a SWG and have somewhat high CH. Last year, I installed a Circupool RJ45+ in my pool and also convinced my friend to get one as well. I did both installs and I take care of both pools. I only monitor her pool once a week like a pool guy would do, but I do it using TFP techniques.

Her pool's CH has been steadily climbing the last couple of years due to high CH in the fill water (350ppm). In March of 2020 when I installed her SWG, her CH was 600ppm so I managed the CSI by reducing both her pH and TA to keep it slightly negative. For whatever reason, it didn't seem to help much. After about the first month with the SWG, I kept finding scale building up on the plates, so I'd have to take the cell apart and hose it out with water EVERY week. Fortunately, the scale was quite fresh, so it didn't require any muriatic acid to clean. Water would clean it every time.

Taking it apart weekly got old in a hurry, so I decided to try borates this spring once it was time to bring the SWG back online. I added 50ppm of borates with boric acid and have been keeping a close eye on it every since. I haven't seen a single sign of any scaling so far this season (almost 4 months in) and the kicker is that her CH is now up to 750ppm after all the refilling from evaporation over the last year.

This fact alone makes the borates worth it IMO.(y)
Click to expand...

Ok cool, thanks for confirming the SWG scale & borates thing... I've read that somewhere on this forum before as well, so good to hear.

To check the cell for scale, do I have to remove the SWG from the plumbing? If so, how do I remove the SWG without water going everywhere?
 

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Turn your pump off and then just loosen the two union collars around the SWG. When you pull out the cell, some water will come out, maybe a couple of gallons worth. No big deal. After you inspect the cell and put it back in line, tighten the two union rings and open your filter's air bleeder valve before you turn on the pump so any air will be bled from the system after you turn it on. Once water starts coming out of the air bleed, close the valve.
 
I use borates. I do think it gives the water a shimmer and makes it soft feeling in my pool. I like that. I went years without them and I do notice a difference. Besides that, borates are an algaestat to a certain extent. I have bleached hair and want no metal based algaecide in my pool because it turns my hair green. I also have very stable ph. The only changes to my ph are when I do something to raise or lower it. What I notice though is it’s harder to adjust to normal levels if you have a lot of borates so I guess that’s why they say have everything close to right before you start. But it’s not impossible. Just takes more effort and patience. My numbers are a little high right now because I just added more borax today. I added the required amount of acid to counteract but it didn’t completely drop my TA and PH down. Instead of adding more, I’m waiting on all this rain we are fixing to get to dilute and replenish my low water. Than I’ll test again and see if I need more acid. I’m fine with my ta being 90-100 but my ph I want at 7.5-7.6.
 
BenB said:
Borates is one of those things that is not "recommended" by TFP, as in it is not actively encouraged, likely because they are not necessary in the same way that following the FC/CYA chart is deemed critical. But that's not to say they are not helpful for certain things. I think the reason folks hedge / hesitate when talking about borates is just because there are a few flashy promises made about their use that you might be disappointed by, such as "super sparkly" or "softer feeling" water, which are likely more placebo effect than real, so nobody wants to get your hopes up. Everybody loves a magic potion (let's be honest - that's how pool stores make their money), and borate is probably as close to that kind of magic as TFP gets.

What is definitely real, however, is that once added to your water it takes a LOT more acid to move your pH around, but the natural rate of pH change is slowed dramatically also. So over time you'd probably use the same amount, but less manual effort and more consistency.

I have 50ppm and am very happy that I only have to add acid once every ~2 weeks when the pH hits 8, and since I need to add more each time, I'm working in simple quantities like 1/2 gallon at a time vs. measuring out in oz.
Click to expand...
Then why are borates listed as a recommended chemical in pool school?
 
nikolausp said:
What? Are you talking to me? I'm not sure what you're referring to
Click to expand...
Sorry, should have been more specific. You got some replies that not as positive using Borates even suggesting it is not a chemical TFP encourages but that would be wrong and it still a recommended chemical in pool school.
 
Borax is a recommended chemical for making pH adjustments. That’s not the same as optional borates (adding 50 lb or so of boric acid).
 
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ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry says:
"Borates are an optional enhancement that helps control PH drift and provides various subjective water quality/feel improvements."

i do not interpret that as a recommendation.

To avoid forget confusion, let me be clear that my use of "recommended"

a) used scare quotes " " to imply a little more nuance than the black and white statement.

b) was also referring to the hesitant manner in which people on the forum talk about them. Some of which is grounded in the 'learn to walk before you run' eluded to by others above.

c) also as noted above, use for pH/TA is a different matter and not what the OP of this thread was asking about.

Hope that clears up any confusion.
 

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