Pump Not Priming?

[Fredsanchez]

I have an elevated spa that waterfalls into a pool with overflow pipe. A week ago I noticed my spa level was below the jets. I filled the spa to just below the waterfall, and again the next day it was about 6 inches low, but the pool was too high and draining out the overflow. I went out of town for a week and so left the pump off while I was gone.

I came back and did some testing. The spa was about 2 inches low, so I filled it to just below the waterfall. I opened the pump lid and water gushed out. I closed the lid and started the pump. Valves were as follows: suction from pool only, return to spa only. I noticed that when the pump was running, the pump was very windy, blowing air out the lower right side. After a few minutes, the valve levers started moving automatically to: suction from spa only, return ~50% pool 50% spa. The spa level dropped rapidly to below the jets, and the pool was too high and draining out the overflow.

I manually changed the return valve: suction same from spa only, return to spa only. Spa level started to increase slowly. Suction valve lever started moving automatically to: suction from pool, return same to spa. After 30 minutes, the spa was almost full (running over the waterfall). The valves had automatically moved to: suction from spa, return to spa. I left the pump to run in this mode for the rest of the night (freeze mode was on).

The next morning, valves had automatically moved to: suction from pool, return to spa. The pump was at low speed with no water flowing through it. The water levels in both pool and spa were high. No water was coming out the spa jets. I manually turned suction valve to: suction from spa, return same to spa. The pump continued on low speed with no water flow. I turned on the cleaner pump. After the delay, the pump was operating at high speed, and a little water flow started (from spa) with low output to spa. I manually changed the suction valve to: suction from pool, return same to spa. A bit heavier flow in pump, and all spa jets were outputting.

I had to leave it a couple of hours; when I returned, the pump was running at higher speed with no water and the spa level was down to the top of the jets. I manually changed the suction valve to: suction from spa, output same to spa, and still there was barely any water in the pump. I shut everything down.

The next night I filled the spa, which was low, and set the valves: suction from pool, return ~50% pool 50% spa. I primed the pump (which had very little water in it), and ran it at high speed. Very little water ran through, the spa level dropped a couple of inches, and there was a bit of output to the pool jets. I manually changed the valves to: suction from spa, return to spa. The spa dropped more to just above the jets, and the pump had very little water running through.

Questions:
- Why is there no water in the pump?
- Why are water levels fluctuating?
- How do I determine cause and repair?

Also, for my education:
- Why and how are the valves moving on their own?
- Is freeze mode a factor in causing the vales to auto-rotate?
- Why, after filling the spa with the hose the first day, did the water level drop again and pool drain out the overflow? Why did the pump overflow out the lid after opening the lid?

Thank you for your assistance. This group has been invaluable to me as a new pool owner.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Fred,

The first thing you need to do is eliminate the freeze control as a problem.

Freeze control will switch back and forth between the Pool mode and the Spa mode and doing this will often cause the Spa to drain into the pool.

You can't really troubleshoot your problem if freeze control is on and working.

While I re-read your post, please show us several pics of your equipment pad, so we can get a better idea of how things are plumbed.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Fredsanchez]

Thank you, Jim. Pictures here.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Fred,

Thanks for the pics, they are perfect!!

The first thing I want you to do is put the system in the Pool mode using the main panel and the "V" button. It does not matter if the pump runs or not.

In your pics your two automated valve (Intake and Return) are the Spa mode. Sucking water from the Spa and sending it all back to the Spa.

When you go the Pool mode both valves should move about 180 degrees so that you are sucking water from the pool and returning it to the Pool.

Tell me if they both move and where they stop.

Then go back to the Spa mode and ensure that both valves move to where they are in the pics.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Fred,

Some additional thoughts..

When in the spa mode, if the spa water is low, it will stay low. In the Spa mode, no additional water will be added to the spa, so if it is low to begin with, it will stay low. The only way the spa will get additional water is when in the Pool mode, there is extra going to the spa causing the spillover into the pool. Or... when you are in the Service mode and use the "V" button to fill or drain the spa.

If the main pump is sucking air, then the first thing to check is water level in the pool. If the water level is too low at the skimmer's mouth, then the pump can suck all the water out of the skimmer basket area and then suck in air.

Another thing to check is to make sure that your weir doors on the skimmer are not stuck in the up position. This will also cause the pump to suck in air.

You seem to have at least two different issues that may not be related. You need to troubleshoot one thing at a time.

Let me know how your automated valve tests turn out.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Fredsanchez]

Hi Jim, thank you for your feedback.

When I push the V button it is either spa mode or off. There does not appear to be a pool mode. Do I need to set up a pool mode, and if so, how?

 

[Jimrahbe]

@Fredsanchez

Do you have a Spa side wired remote by your spa? If so, I'd unplug it inside the fold down front panel.

If not, I am not sure what is wrong, as when in AUTO the V button should only switch between the pool and spa modes.

One thing you can try is a reboot, by pushing the reset button on the main panel. It will not erase anything, it is just like rebooting your PC. And just like rebooting your PC it can take 5 or 10 minutes for everything to come back up.

Please let me know what you find...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Fredsanchez]

No spa-side remote.

Weir doors are down and water level in pool is very high due to rain (a bit coming out the overflow pipe). There is no sucking down the skimmers at all.

In AUTO, POOL mode only shows the word POOL when the filter F is pushed; if filter is off, there is a blank below AUTO. Pushing V shows the word SPA. In SPA mode, valves turn correctly to spa in SPA mode. In AUTO, awaiting POOL mode, suction is open to pool and return split 50-50.

I fiddled with the valve toggle switches. There is a valve toggle switch on the back of the suction and return valves. It seems pushing the toggle down moves the valve to one direction, and pushing up moves to the opposite direction, so after manually moving a valve, I left it in the middle OFF position. Both were currently toggled OFF. Then I found that if suction was toggled up and return was toggled down, the valves did the opposite of the setting (turned to pool settings when set to SPA and spa settings when just on AUTO/POOL). When suction is toggled down and return is toggled up,, they face the correct ways for AUTO-SPA and AUTO-BLANK/POOL settings. AUTO-SPA is the valve positions from my first pictures, and AUTO-BLANK/POOL is in this attached picture (suction open to pool and return split 50-50).

 

[Jimrahbe]

@Fredsanchez

The automation has no clue where the valves are actaully positioned. It just assume they are where they should be.

When the system is initially set up, you use the little 3-position toggle switch to move the valve to where it needs to be. You leave the toggle in one of the two on positions, you never leave it in the center off position, unless you do not want the valve to move at all.

I suspect that you do not have have your "Pool " Circuit scheduled. At least when it showed Auto and Blank.

You should never have to push the "F" button in normal operation.

The reason that your Return valve is set to 50/50 is so that your spa spills over into your pool. You should not have to do that if the pool builder had done it correctly, but that is where you are today. This can be fixed, but that is something for another day.

So, it sounds like your Intake and return valves are moving like they should, and I suspet that if you add a schedule for your pool circuit, that pool will show up on your little Display.

The main cause of air getting into a pump is a dirty, bad, or missing O-Ring under the pump lid. I assumed you have check that, but if not that is something you need to do.

Air can also get sucked into your pump if one of the valves on the intake side is leaking air. As a test, you can open just one input at a time a see how the pump reacts.
1. I'd shut off the main drain and see how the pump works using just the two skimmers.
2. Then I'd shut off one of the two skimmers and see how that works
3. Then I'd open the shut off skimmer and close the other one and see how that works.
4. Then I'd open the main drain and shut off both skimmers and see what happens

Please let us know what you find.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Fredsanchez]

I will get out there in just a few minutes. Do you mind telling me about the design details that impact the return needing to be set at 50/50? If it was designed correctly, what would the return be set at?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Fred,

Most pools are built with something that is called a "Make-up" line. This make-up line allows a little water to bypass the Return valve when in the Pool mode and it sends the water to the spa causing the spa to spillover into the pool. The line normally has a manual valve that you can use to adjust the amount of flow to the spillover.

Your pool builder took the lazy approach and just off-set the Return valve so that it always makes your spa spillover. The downside is that you can't easily adjust the amount of spillover and you can't shut it off.

Most automation systems have three modes of operation. Pool mode, Spa mode and if set up, a spillway mode.

In the spillover mode, the spa only spillover when you want it to, and not all the time. You can schedule the spillover to run a couple of times a day to keep your spa water fresh. The whole reason for the spillover is to keep the water in the spa fresh. Without the spillover the water in the spa, would never get replaced, which woul be a bad thing.

If you love your constant spillover then, I would not change a thing. But, if you ever want to use the Spillway mode, it is very easy to set up. Basically, the automation just sets the Intake valve to Pool and the Return valve to Spa and then the pump speed is set to the amount of spillover you want.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Fredsanchez]

Thank you for that explanation. Is the WATERFALL line (with its own valve) on the pool side after the return valve a make-up line? I have not paid attention to it and it has always stayed in the closed position as in the first set of pictures.

I had family needs, but headed out to do some testing now.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Fred,

The "waterfall" line could go to the spa to create the spillover, but then the question would be why is your Return valve set to 50/50.

I had assumed you had an actual waterfall feature somewhere around the pool?

That is something that you need to check out. Turn the waterfall valve on and see what happens.

Either way, it should not have any effect on the pump priming when in the pool mode.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Fredsanchez]

All four suction scenarios had the same result:
- Noticeable return (water and air) out of pool jet closest to pump, no return out of other jets.
- Small stream of water (stream about 1/4-1/2 diameter) seen passing through return check valve.
- No movement of water in either skimmer in any scenario.

While suction through only Skimmer 1, pump happened to shut off while I was looking in the skimmer and a burp of air came up from the skimmer sucker.

 

[Fredsanchez]

When I say waterfall, I guess I just mean spillover. Sorry about my limited terminology. The label on that return pipe does say WATERFALL though, FWIW.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Fred,

What positions does your MPV on your filter have? Make sure it is in Filter position.

If the MPV has a recirculate or bypass position, try that and see if that makes any difference.

Another thing you can do is to shut off the pump, remove the lid, and see if you can feel any debris in the impeller area of the pump.

Did you inspect the pump lid O-Ring?

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Fredsanchez]

Reached in around the impeller and could not feel any debris.

Pump lid O-ring is good.

Turned MPV to Recirc. Same trickle in the check valve window, no movement in the skimmers, and no movement at any jets this time.

Ever since I noticed a problem, the area around the pump has been very windy, seeming more than normal. Is that a factor?

 

[Fredsanchez]

In case the info helps, looking through records, I just discovered the previous owner self-installed a new pump motor in 2021. My best guess is the previous pump was about a decade old.

 

[Fredsanchez]

I appreciate the help so far. If anyone has suggestions on where to go from here, I would be grateful.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Fred,

When in the Pool mode, when you start the pump, does the pump go through the Prime cycle? In other words does it run at a high speed for a minute or so and then slow down?

Again, in the Pool mode, what do you see when you look down through the clear pump lid, when you turn the pump on? Do you see it sucking water from the pool or ???

As another test... When in the Pool mode, start the pump and then put your hand under each skimmer basket and tell us if you feel suction at the pipe going to the pump. Should be the hole farthest from the water.

Thanks,

Jim R.