Posting builder quotes?

[4x4tx]

The quote says 8 Eco Jet Returns - are they int he floor or on the pool walls?

Your friend got an Aquarite Salt system. If you are happy lugging chlorine jugs and tracking down chlorine sources forever then you can continue with liquid chlorine. That is more work then I will do when over time you will spend about the same for a salt system as you do for the liquid chlorine jugs. Not even considering your time and hassles.

Your friend got a larger filter, which is good, and the 400K heater.

OmniPL is Haywards latest automation system. OnCommand is a low end entry level automation system.

Jets are on the pool walls. Is a blower needed? My hot tub now has little screw knobs, the higher you unscrew them the more bubbles you get....close them down you get no bubbles. is that just old school these days?
A blower is totally foreign to me.

Good point point on the salt system, I just was under the impression the liquid chlorine method was the best method period...not just for those of us with chlorine feeders.

Speaking of the filters, are these cartridge filters good? I have 60 FNS DE Filter now...always thought DE was the best filter but I like the idea of no backwashes and multiport valves.

Good to know on oncommand vs omniPL....what is the price difference in those units?

 

[ajw22]

Jets are on the pool walls.

Then it is not an In Floor Cleaning system (IFCS). Just some fancy name the PB made up.

Get a robot cleaner.

Is a blower needed? My hot tub now has little screw knobs, the higher you unscrew them the more bubbles you get....close them down you get no bubbles. is that just old school these days?
A blower is totally foreign to me.

Depends if you are satisfied with the amount of bubbles you get. A spa blower can really churn up the water with air.

Good point point on the salt system, I just was under the impression the liquid chlorine method was the best method period...not just for those of us with chlorine feeders.

Once you get a SWG, few people go back to any other form of chlorination.

Speaking of the filters, are these cartridge filters good? I have 60 FNS DE Filter now...always thought DE was the best filter but I like the idea of no backwashes and multiport valves.

I have a DE filter and would get another one. Today I would get The Pentair Quad Cartridge DE filter.

DE filters capture particles down to 2-6 microns. Cartridge filters capture particles down to 10-15 microns. Sand filters capture particles down to 20-40 microns. Other filters are good enough but I prefer the filter performance of DE and am willing to backwash every once in a while.

I would always have a mutitport valve. Having a RECIRCULATE position can be valuable when you have an algae or filter problem.

Good to know on oncommand vs omniPL....what is the price difference in those units?

Hayward does not publish their prices and PB can charge what they want. You have to negotiate with your PB.

 

[spd500]

My Omni PL with the load center, SWCG, and three valve actuators was $2800 if I remember right. I will double check my contract in the morning

 

[4x4tx]

We are also on the east side of Houston in Summerwood. These prices are in line with what we are paying for our pool. We started out at about $40K for the pool spa package and by the time we got done adding everything that we wanted we were up to $56K.

We did go with the 400K heater because a neighbor who had upgraded from the 250K told us how much faster it heats the spa. He says he can turn it on when he leaves his office and it is hot by the time he gets home 25 minutes later.

We also upgraded to the multicolor LED lights, and the Omni PL automation system. I see you are being quoted for a subpanel, the Omni PL has the subpanel within it so it eliminates one extra box on the side of the house. For us there was the added benefit of the Omni PL being available with the SWCG included and actually cost alot less than buying each of the items separately.

One other thing I noticed was that you are only getting one skimmer, I would upgrade that to two. We have one on each end of the pool because the wind direction in our neighborhood is almost always from one side or the other.

I missed this part....so the omniPL has the SWCG and subpanel all in one? Like its basically get 3 in one for less cost than getting those 3 separately? Awesome

 

[4x4tx]

My Omni PL with the load center, SWCG, and three valve actuators was $2800 if I remember right. I will double check my contract in the morning

Just send you a PM. Glad you pointed this out!

 

[4x4tx]

Ok got a revised quote (attached below and attached pic of what pool would look) after listing out the things I wanted to update based off your list and other suggestions. He pushed back on a few things.....
Still not quoting Omni PL...here are some cut and pastes from my questions.

When asked about omni PL....I got this response ":You are getting the OMNI VS 950 pump with integrated smartphone app controls

3)What is the T2B cleaning and circulation system? are spa jets still on walls with this? You get 8 down force returns instead standard surface returns, these force the water to the bottom and make for much better circulation. We put these on all of our pools. (T2B “Top-2-Bottom)
5)Want to use this Tristar pump -Hayward Tristar Variable Speed filter pump – VS950 2.7HP 230V See above

7) What size are suction lines and returns? I want 2" suction lines and on all pool equipment and 1.5" returns 2” & 2.5” suction lines are included on all of our pools, return lines knuckle down as needed for proper pressure at returns, part of the T2B System

8 )I want all diverter valves used and no ball valves You will get the same valves as your friend

Thoughts on this one?

Here is what I would do:

• Ask for details about what is the Top-E-Bottom (T2B) cleaning & Circulation System. Get an explanation fo how it works and what equipment it uses. These infloor cleaning systems are complex. Some people love them and some people hate them. They do not clean sufficiently for some peoples pool environment. IO have never heard of an infloor cleaning system manufacturer by that name. The major manufacturer of IFCS is A&A Manufacturing . Understand where you would get spare parts and maintenance for your IFCS.
• Why does it include an Aquanut 200 Automatic Cleaner when you are getting this fancy T2B system? The Aquanaut is a low end suction pool cleaner. Get a credit for it and separately buy a Dolphin pool cleaner from Marina Pools. Install an outlet near the pool to plug the robot into. Question if the robot will get hing up on the T2B infloor returns.
• Get two skimmers. If you have one skimmer and it has a problem your pool is down. With two skimmers you can have one plugged or leaking and still have your pool operational while youd eal with the problem.
• Hayward has 3 different Tristar VS pumps. Which one are you getting? TriStar VS | Pumps | In Ground Pool Pumps - Hayward Pool Products
• Get the 400K gas heater. Check what your current gas meter service is and if you will need a gas service upgrade for a 250K heater or 400K heater and what is involved. The contract says the gas service upgrade is on your nickel.
• You are in Houston where builders do not like SWG's. But using an Inline Chlorinator will require you to drain your pool once or twice a year to keep your CYA level in check. You can insist on a SWG now or not be surprised at seeing the light after a year or two of pool ownership.
• You want minimum 2" suction lines and on all pool equipment and 1.5" returns
• You want all diverter valves used and no ball valves
• How will bubblers be plumbed and controlled? Will bubblers have independent valves?
• Get the Hayward OmniPL automation

 

[spd500]

I have the VS950 for my primary pump also, and the VS900 for water features, but controlled by the OmniPL. I would ask what all the smartphone app will control. It looks like you can control the pump directly on the Hayward site if I am reading it correctly, but what about lights, water features, valve actuators, etc?

 

[4x4tx]

I have the VS950 for my primary pump also, and the VS900 for water features, but controlled by the OmniPL. I would ask what all the smartphone app will control. It looks like you can control the pump directly on the Hayward site if I am reading it correctly, but what about lights, water features, valve actuators, etc?

Agreed...trying to learn what the pump can do vs what the omni pl does? what purpose does it serve if the pump can do that if you cant control it all? @ajw22

 

[ajw22]

When asked about omni PL....I got this response ":You are getting the OMNI VS 950 pump with integrated smartphone app controls

Wonderful lock in strategy by Hayward and your PB. You will not be able to change to a different vendor or model pump because it includes your automation. And when your pump fails and needs to be replaced it will cost you more to replace the pump + automation. And then what happens when Hayward obsoletes that pump + automation?

Not acceptable to me long term. Even if it costs a bit more I want a separate pump and automation system not some combo lock-in.

3)What is the T2B cleaning and circulation system? are spa jets still on walls with this? You get 8 down force returns instead standard surface returns, these force the water to the bottom and make for much better circulation. We put these on all of our pools. (T2B “Top-2-Bottom)

Ask him for a picture of what these down force returns look like. Do they screw into standard 1.5" PVC just like standard eyeballs? Or do they lock you into some proprietary returns forever? And needing to by replacement equipment and service from him? If so, no thank you. I want standard pool fittings.

5)Want to use this Tristar pump -Hayward Tristar Variable Speed filter pump – VS950 2.7HP 230V See above

Pump models and features chnage and evlove every few years. Youw ant flexibility to get new pumps from Hayward or whoever over the life of your pool. Which can be 30+ years.

7) What size are suction lines and returns? I want 2" suction lines and on all pool equipment and 1.5" returns 2” & 2.5” suction lines are included on all of our pools, return lines knuckle down as needed for proper pressure at returns, part of the T2B System

That is fine and better then the 2" & 1.5" minimum.

8 )I want all diverter valves used and no ball valves[[email protected]] You will get the same valves as your friend

Thoughts on this one?

That is a non-answer to your question.

 

[4x4tx]

@ajw22 Thanks. So not only will it not control lights, actuators etc, it locks me into issues down the road...IE if I need to replace pump its not only pump but automation....so maybe better off getting standard pump without automation tied to the omni PL only?

What are your thoughts on prices listed on his bid as far as equipment? Also this is pretty much my friends exact pool..but yet base price and upcharge to bigger pool price has gone up by 8k...is it reasonable to think from Jan 2020 to now that prices have increased that much? Thats like a 15% increase. I figure dealing with a pool builder is about like buying a car...they throw out some MSRP prices and some people bite without questioning everything....I want to get down to invoice pricing + a little.

 

[ajw22]

Hayward makes it difficult for consumers to negotiate on pricing. They don't allow these products to be sold on the Internet or publish any price lists. They favor the Pool Builder channel which is why many PBs quote Hayward. Jandy is similar and Pentair is the most consumer friendly.

It sounds like your PB has a standard package that he wants to slam into every build. It makes it easy for his crew to do the same thing over and over. Not very buyer friendly though.

Many things seem to now have a Covid-19 surcharge. Right now you have a sellers market for PBs and not much negotiation leverage. I am amazed at the amount of pool building going on in the middle of our economic and unemployment problems. Wait for the next recession if you want better pricing.

 

[4x4tx]

Thoughts on this setup on the latest quote I got? Pricing was around $70k which is more than I want to spend....thinking of cutting out the spa and going standalone.....was told that would cut out 13k off this quote.

 

[mknauss]

Drop the cleaner and booster pump, get a robot. Drop the UV and in line chlorinator, get a SWCG.
Get an Intelliflo VS pump. The SS pump they have quoted will be no longer replaceable in July next year. And is an electric hog (2 kW per hour run).

 

[4x4tx]

Drop the cleaner and booster pump, get a robot. Drop the UV and in line chlorinator, get a SWCG.
Get an Intelliflo VS pump. The SS pump they have quoted will be no longer replaceable in July next year. And is an electric hog (2 kW per hour run).

Thank you!

 

[HermanTX]

I would recommend you need to sit down with the PB and workout what you "need" and how that relates to your budget. Then you can look at upgrades or changes if you have any room remaining in your budget.
1) A variable speed pump is the new norm and by mid 2021 it will be mandatory. It is more expensive than the single speed pump the PB quoted but one day it will need to be added. Pay now or pay later.
2) Using a SWCG (salt pool) will cost more now but will be somewhat offset by monthly purchases of liquid chlorine or chlorine pucks. The TFP process does not really fit to the use of pucks on a continuous basis because it is constantly adding CYA to your pool and then that affects the level of chlorine you need to maintain. It is more manageable if you use a SWCG or commit to use of liquid chlorine with the TFP methodology. As stated earlier, people either jump right in with a SWCG or go with pucks, then migrate to liquid chlorine then buy a SWCG. So it is really your preference of how you want to sanitize and maintain your pool.
3) Hayward and Pentair make comparable equipment with regard to filters and heaters and pumps - just need to figure which the PB can provide at the best price to fit your budget.
4) Automation can get expensive over a basic mechanical timer. If you really want to control remotely then discuss with PB the systems he can provide. If you decide not to incorporate a spa and have no water features, then your automation requirements go way down. Discuss with your friend who just did their pool on not only what they have but what they wish they had. That will provide a good list of needs vs. wants.
Hope this helps because pools costs can vary greatly based on incorporated features.

 

[4x4tx]

I would recommend you need to sit down with the PB and workout what you "need" and how that relates to your budget. Then you can look at upgrades or changes if you have any room remaining in your budget.
1) A variable speed pump is the new norm and by mid 2021 it will be mandatory. It is more expensive than the single speed pump the PB quoted but one day it will need to be added. Pay now or pay later.
2) Using a SWCG (salt pool) will cost more now but will be somewhat offset by monthly purchases of liquid chlorine or chlorine pucks. The TFP process does not really fit to the use of pucks on a continuous basis because it is constantly adding CYA to your pool and then that affects the level of chlorine you need to maintain. It is more manageable if you use a SWCG or commit to use of liquid chlorine with the TFP methodology. As stated earlier, people either jump right in with a SWCG or go with pucks, then migrate to liquid chlorine then buy a SWCG. So it is really your preference of how you want to sanitize and maintain your pool.
3) Hayward and Pentair make comparable equipment with regard to filters and heaters and pumps - just need to figure which the PB can provide at the best price to fit your budget.
4) Automation can get expensive over a basic mechanical timer. If you really want to control remotely then discuss with PB the systems he can provide. If you decide not to incorporate a spa and have no water features, then your automation requirements go way down. Discuss with your friend who just did their pool on not only what they have but what they wish they had. That will provide a good list of needs vs. wants.
Hope this helps because pools costs can vary greatly based on incorporated features.

Thank you.

I am trying to remember, with a salt pool, is travertine a no no? What type of coping is considered the go to with a salt pool?

 

[spd500]

with a salt pool, is travertine a no no?

I had the same question and came to the conclusion that if the water is well balanced there will be no issue with Travertine. Most people say that the regular chlorine pool will have close to the same level of salt in it over time as as SWCG pool. We went with travertine, but it is too new to be able to say how it will last over the long term. Honestly, I expect my wife will want to remodel and change things up long before there is any wear on the coping anyway, lol.

 

[4x4tx]

Back at it with some new quotes



This was our first go at it. Will definitely get more detail and ask about a SWGP upgrade. I do not see any automation on this either. Not sure of model of catridge filter .

In addition I will not need the dirt hauled off and I was told for a pool this size should be about 30 loads at $100 a load...so that should be about $3k of savings to be had here to offset some upcharges.

Im not sure I really want the bubblers or water features as well.

Thoughts? Everything was put on hold about a year with building a house at the same time so just not trying to remember what to look for. Any help appreciated.

 

[TampaKathy]

3 feet is very shallow...may want to consider starting at 4 feet. The charges for upgraded plaster can be a lot so you should ask for a list of those prices unless you know you are ok with the basic offering. Ask about payment terms...ideally you want to have some held back until the pool is completed.

 

[4x4tx]

Is quartz scape basic plaster?

Good point on 3 ft...I really want probably 4-7' .