Pool dig started Manteca, CA

[mihzyd777]

This may help on volume flow in pipes.
#1 FlexPVC®.com Water Flow Charts Based on Pipe Size (GPM/GPH) ie, How much water can flow through Sch 40 Pvc Pipe Size 1/2" 3/4" 1" 1.5" 2" 2.5" 3" 4" 6"
Water Flow Volume for a given pipe size based on charts, tables, formula, nomograph, & experience.

flexpvc.com

Water features do not need to go through the filter, heater, etc. as their suction is from the main pool and the flow is back to the main pool thus it is all chlorinated water. Having the 2 suction lines tie into 1 suction is normal as that is new code to prevent entrapment Also having the suction on the wall minimizes debris that is sucked into the water feature system as you only have your pump filter basket to catch it.

Having a VSP dedicated pump for your water features is good. Remember to have a valve on each return so you can independently control flow to each.

I could not tell, but are both your skimmers independently plumbed back to the equipment pad. That would be good to have if not done.

Hi thanks so much for that info. Yes both of my skimmers are independently ran back. The one on the left is connect to main floor drains and the other skimmer just skims and each runs back on 2.5" pipe.
I looked at the chart you gave me and tried to decipjer it. I would imagine being in the green is optimal. I believe I read on Pe tair site that the sheer rains require 15gpm per foot with 10 being minimum. That meansmy 8 ft sheer rain would require 120gpm? Is that righy and 2.5" pipe doesn't look like it supports that in the green section? Does it help that each sheer rain is independently ran from pump and will pump work harder to move the water through 3 separate pipes?

Thank you!

 

[mihzyd777]

This may help on volume flow in pipes.
#1 FlexPVC®.com Water Flow Charts Based on Pipe Size (GPM/GPH) ie, How much water can flow through Sch 40 Pvc Pipe Size 1/2" 3/4" 1" 1.5" 2" 2.5" 3" 4" 6"
Water Flow Volume for a given pipe size based on charts, tables, formula, nomograph, & experience.

flexpvc.com

Water features do not need to go through the filter, heater, etc. as their suction is from the main pool and the flow is back to the main pool thus it is all chlorinated water. Having the 2 suction lines tie into 1 suction is normal as that is new code to prevent entrapment Also having the suction on the wall minimizes debris that is sucked into the water feature system as you only have your pump filter basket to catch it.

Having a VSP dedicated pump for your water features is good. Remember to have a valve on each return so you can independently control flow to each.

I could not tell, but are both your skimmers independently plumbed back to the equipment pad. That would be good to have if not done.

Also wanted memtion scrolling down lower I saw the section I attached which discusses psi and pipe size/gpm and the pipe I have says 300psi on it. Does that mean in reality and safely go all the way to 1004gpm and on get to 200psi on a 2" pipe??

 

[ajw22]

You want to keep the water velocity below 6 ft/sec on the suction and below 8 ft/sec on the pressure side of the pump. Your 2.5" suction line should not be run at more then 90 GPM. If you want to be able to do 120 GPM then you need 3" suction.

The Intelliflo XF pump has union connectors included for 2.5 in. or 3 in. plumbing

Pipe Size	6 ft/sec	8 ft/sec
1.5"	38 GPM	51 GPM
2"	63 GPM	84 GPM
2.5	90 GPM	119 GPM
3.0"	138 GPM	184 GPM

 

[mihzyd777]

You want to keep the water velocity below 6 ft/sec on the suction and below 8 ft/sec on the pressure side of the pump. Your 2.5" suction line should not be run at more then 90 GPM. If you want to be able to do 120 GPM then you need 3" suction.

The Intelliflo XF pump has union connectors included for 2.5 in. or 3 in. plumbing

Pipe Size	6 ft/sec	8 ft/sec
1.5"	38 GPM	51 GPM
2"	63 GPM	84 GPM
2.5	90 GPM	119 GPM
3.0"	138 GPM	184 GPM

Ok so see this is where I get confused even at 3" suction pipe it shows 138gpm at 6ft/sec. Which if I'm running the 8' ft sheer and 3' ft sheers all at the same time that still won't be enough will it? How about the 2" pipe going to my smaller 3' ft sheer rains does it help that they are independently ran to each? And how about the 2.5" to my 8'ft sheer rain that is also on its on pipe??

So if I'm reading correctly your saying I shoukd have then change out the 2.5 suction lines and install 3" inch suction and buy the XF pump?

Thanks!

 

[ajw22]

*Qty. 1- 8'ft. sheer rain the PVC run from the pump is approx. 58' ft. then rising about 7.5' ft. up to the top of a Pergola that will be built. This one is the waterfall return using 2.5" inch pipe (Pentair P/N on this sheer rain I believe is: 581208FRW) **I may go down to 6' ft. depending on what is said about all this**

*Qty 2 - 3' ft. sheer rains PVC run from the pump is 29' ft. to the first one & 43' ft. to the second one. Each rise about 24" inches to pillars. Each waterfall return to each of these is independent of the other and use 2" inch pipe to each of these. (Pentair P/N on these sheer rains I believe is: 581203FRW)

Have you read this manual carefully? - https://www.pentair.com/content/dam...MagicFallsWaterEffectsOwnersManualEnglish.pdf

A maximum mounting height of 6 ft for rain effect is recommended and you want to do 8 feet.

They say use 3 in diameter supply piping for all waterfalls 5 ft. and over.

It also says you should plan to supply approximately 15 GPM per foot. The waterfall can operate on lower flow rates (10GPM/ft minimum) ,but may not achieve the desired effect.

So with one 8' rise and two 3' rise at minimum GPM you need 140 GPM. You are not going to get that from one suction line and pump running all three sheers at the same time even before any head losses. I say you need a plumbing loop for the 8' high sheer and a separate plumbing loop for the two 3' high sheers if you wan to run them simultaneously. You could put the two 3' sheers on your filter pump and valve it so you turn off the returns and send the water to the 3' sheers.

Maybe @JamesW or @mas985 will do more detailed calculations.

 

[mihzyd777]

Hi @ajwso ya I did read the whole manual seceral times. I saw exactly what you mentioned, and I even called pentair who said that as well. I just got off the phone with the pool builder, and they said they run 2.5" suction all the time for several water features without issues. He mentioned they built a $200k pool recently that is plumbed almost the same way as mine. They are foing to have the Pe tair regional director call me on Monday as well as the owner so we can discuss.

My only question now is when you say a loop what does that mean exactly ? Does that mean to have the 8'ft sheer rain on it's own suction and then seperate the 2- 3' ft sheers on the other pump like you mentioned?
Also, is my 8' ft sheer ok with the 2.5" piping or does that need to be 3" ?

 

[ajw22]

Does that mean to have the 8'ft sheer rain on it's own suction and then seperate the 2- 3' ft sheers on the other pump like you mentioned?

Yup.

Also, is my 8' ft sheer ok with the 2.5" piping or does that need to be 3" ?

I think you will get suboptimal flow and effect. All the pools your builder does that way the customers probably just think the effect they see is just the way it is. If they never saw it with a better flow how would they know to complain? And once it is built with 2.5" it cannot be easily changed.

Pentair says 3" in their manual for a reason.

 

[mihzyd777]

Yup.



I think you will get suboptimal flow and effect. All the pools your builder does that way the customers probably just think the effect they see is just the way it is. If they never saw it with a better flow how would they know to complain? And once it is built with 2.5" it cannot be easily changed.

Pentair says 3" in their manual for a reason.

Woooh now your saying my suction should be 3" and my piping to my 8'ft sheer rain shoukd also be 3' ft?

Is the 2" inch piping to each on my 3'ft sheer rains ok?

 

[ajw22]

Is the 2" inch piping to each on my 3'ft sheer rains ok?

Gut feel is it will be ok but you should have someone do all the head calculations.

 

[mas985]

With a single pump, the issue you are going to have is running the Intelliflo (non-XF) at full speed running through the filter and heater, plus valves, etc. The added head loss will limit the flow rate to the features plus put a lot of stress on the filter. At best, the flow rate will be below 100 GPM with all three features and no extra returns. I would go with a separate feature pump(s).

If you have a full plumbing schematic with equipment model #s, I can do some more detailed/accurate head loss calculations to estimate the flow rates.

 

[mihzyd777]

Hey @mas985 appreciate the help with this. I saw your in Pleasanton. I'm over here in Manteca not to far!! So I do plan on running 2 Intelliflo VSF pumps. I asked the pool builder for plumbing schematics and hopefully I can get it this week. I'll try and upload some pics tomorrow of what we have so far and then how I believe it will all be connected.

Thanks again~

 

[mas985]

So do you have a dedicated pump for just the descents and there is no other equipment in-line (e.g. filters, heaters, etc)?

Also, is each feature fed by it's own wall port or MD pair?

If so, then I would go with the Intelliflo XF which has a run out >220 GPM. The regular Intelliflo runs out at about 145 GPM and the operating point should be at least 10% below that. Without the pad equipment and multiple runs, you should be able to get close to the Intelliflo XF run out but it depends on the plumbing layout. That should get you close to 15 GPM/ft. for the descents.

 

[mihzyd777]

Ok @mas985 or anyone else too I'd appreciate your input. I uploaded some photos that may help until I can get something. The pipes in Pool Pipe 4 pic are labeled the following:

Skimmer 2.5" inch pipe - this one is just skimming the pool top
Skimmer 2.5" inch pipe - this one pulls from the dual main drains on the floor of the pool
PSU 2" pipe - Pool suction for cleaner but I'm using a robot
PR 2" pipe- Pool Returns
WFR 2.5" pipe= Waterfall Return for 8' ft. sheer rain mounted approx. 7.5' ft. up on a Pergola.
WFR 2" pipe= Waterfall Return for 3' sheer rain on 24" tall wall.
WFS 2.5" pipe = Waterfall Suction
WFR 2" pipe= Waterfall return for 2nd 3' sheer rain on 24" tall wall.

The waterfall pipes are all independently run on their own lines. The distances from the pump to each waterfall is below:
36" Sheer Rain with 2" pipe on 24" tall wall = approx. 29' ft.
Second 36" Sheer Rain with 2" pipe on 24" tall wall = approx. 43 ft.
8' ft. Sheer rain that rises approx. 7.5' ft. = 58' ft.

You can see the raised pipes for each of the sheer rain water features in my pic labeled Pool Pipe 6. I've also attached what the shape of the pool is.

Right now I was going to run 1 Intelliflo VSF pump to circulate the pool water, and then another VSF for the water features, but now I'm thinking of getting a Intelliflo XF for the water features and running all 3 through that? The other talk is to have the pool circulating VSF pump run the 2 smaller 36" sheer rain and circulate through the pool filter & heat pump and back out, then get a 2nd VSF pump just for the 8' ft. sheer descent that would not go through the filter or heater. I'm open to whatever works best. The PB owner is here and said he puts valves right at the equipment pad to dial down the gpm flow to the sheer rain features if needed, he also mentioned that the water features are on an open-loop system so there will be no hammering going on since no actual valve will close and it's just the pump shutting off and the flow of water stopping. He says he's built some large waterfalls with this size piping without issues. In one way my mind is thinking well he does this all the time he should know, and the other side of my brain says but the manual from pentair recommends 3" pipe for suction and for anything over 5' ft. sheer rain.

I hope this helps. I want to be able to tell the pool builder sooner than later whether we need to use larger suction and large 3" pipe for 8' ft. sheer rain.

 

[mas985]

WFR 2.5" pipe= Waterfall Return for 8' ft. sheer rain mounted approx. 7.5' ft. up on a Pergola.
WFR 2" pipe= Waterfall Return for 3' sheer rain on 24" tall wall.
WFS 2.5" pipe = Waterfall Suction
WFR 2" pipe= Waterfall return for 2nd 3' sheer rain on 24" tall wall.

What is the pool side suction connected to (e.g. dual wall ports or dual MDs)?
What about the smaller descents suction lines? If one 2.5" suction line is used for all three features, there could be safety and head loss issues, not to mention cavitation. Also, note with two separate pumps, you should have separate dedicated suction lines to each pump. Sharing suction lines between pumps is never a good idea but still happens.

Skimmer 2.5" inch pipe - this one pulls from the dual main drains on the floor of the pool

Does this mean the MD is plumbed through the skimmer? Better to have it two as separated lines, pool to pump. That way it could be used as a second suction line for the descents. You are better off using the skimmers for just filtration. They really should not be used for high flow rate applications.

but now I'm thinking of getting a Intelliflo XF for the water features and running all 3 through that?

That causes a new set of issues. You would need to plumb in a bypass around the filter and heater to avoid the extra head loss and potential damage due to high flow rates. It can be done but is messy and will result in less total flow rate than using separate pumps.

The other talk is to have the pool circulating VSF pump run the 2 smaller 36" sheer rain and circulate through the pool filter & heat pump and back out, then get a 2nd VSF pump just for the 8' ft.

That is better than the single pump option but you will still have fairly high flow rates (~90 GPM) running through the filter and heater. I think you are better off with the XF running all three features not going through any other equipment. That is the only way to get even close to the 15 GPM/ft flow rate.

The PB owner is here and said he puts valves right at the equipment pad to dial down the gpm flow to the sheer rain features if needed,

The valves should only be used for balancing the flow rate between the various features. Total flow rate should be handled by the pump's RPM setting.

He says he's built some large waterfalls with this size piping without issues. In one way my mind is thinking well he does this all the time he should know, and the other side of my brain says but the manual from pentair recommends 3" pipe for suction and for anything over 5' ft. sheer rain.

I'm sure he has built them that way. But do they meet current safety standards and could performance be better?

 

[mihzyd777]

What is the pool side suction connected to (e.g. dual wall ports or dual MDs)?
What about the smaller descents suction lines? If one 2.5" suction line is used for all three features, there could be safety and head loss issues, not to mention cavitation. Also, note with two separate pumps, you should have separate dedicated suction lines to each pump. Sharing suction lines between pumps is never a good idea but still happens.

Does this mean the MD is plumbed through the skimmer? Better to have it two as separated lines, pool to pump. That way it could be used as a second suction line for the descents. You are better off using the skimmers for just filtration. They really should not be used for high flow rate applications.

That causes a new set of issues. You would need to plumb in a bypass around the filter and heater to avoid the extra head loss and potential damage due to high flow rates. It can be done but is messy and will result in less total flow rate than using separate pumps.

That is better than the single pump option but you will still have fairly high flow rates (~90 GPM) running through the filter and heater. I think you are better off with the XF running all three features not going through any other equipment. That is the only way to get even close to the 15 GPM/ft flow rate.

The valves should only be used for balancing the flow rate between the various features. Total flow rate should be handled by the pump's RPM setting.

I'm sure he has built them that way. But do they meet current safety standards and could performance be better?

Ok hopefully I can answer your questions and ask new ones lol.

I attached a pic where you can see both skimmers. The one on the left is just a skimmer that runs back to pumo on 2.5" pipe. The skimmer to the right is skimming and as you ca. Probably see has a pipe the goes down to dual main drain on the deep end of the pool and feeds back to the pump on it's on 2.5" pipe.

I can certainly tell them to be sure the water features do not go through the filter or heat pump.
Also, sounds like I'll go ahead and purchase the Intelliflo XF pump and have them run the water features.
So in the end it sounds like if I change the 2.5" suction on the deep end walls to 3" pipe and then change the large 8' ft sheer descent fro. 2.5" to 3" pipe that should be safer and much better would you agree. The XF pump will strictly use the 3" suction pioe that I'll have them replace on the deep end.
I also attached a lic of the suction side that will be used for water features only. I circled it in the pic.

Not sure if you draw up a simple schematic of how you think this should all be connected with a salt water chlorinator in line as well. Speaking of, do I have to use a check valve on the sraight run when coming out of my heat pu.p and before getting to salt chlorinator?

I hope that helps and thank you for the help. Look forward to more info!!

 

[mas985]

I attached a pic where you can see both skimmers. The one on the left is just a skimmer that runs back to pumo on 2.5" pipe. The skimmer to the right is skimming and as you ca. Probably see has a pipe the goes down to dual main drain on the deep end of the pool and feeds back to the pump on it's on 2.5" pipe.

That's ok but ideally, I would put all three suction ports on separate lines (skimmer, skimmer, MD). The PB could easily move the MD pipe from the bottom of the skimmer directly to the equipment pad. This would allow separate control of all three. And down the road should you need another separate suction, the MD is available. MD's are pretty much useless for anything other than a high volume suction port. General circulation doesn't require them.

So in the end it sounds like if I change the 2.5" suction on the deep end walls to 3" pipe and then change the large 8' ft sheer descent fro. 2.5" to 3" pipe that should be safer and much better would you agree. The XF pump will strictly use the 3" suction pioe that I'll have them replace on the deep end.
I also attached a lic of the suction side that will be used for water features only. I circled it in the pic.

Yes, if that suction pipe is to be used for all three features, then it would be best to make it a 3" line back to the pad. Recommendations (not regulations) from APSP-7 suggest a maximum water velocity of 6 ft/sec in the two branch lines in a MD pair so ideally, you would want the two branch lines to be 4" but again that is more of a recommendation than a regulation. However, the 8' descent return line does not need to be 3" so you can leave that as is. In fact, for head loss balance, you are probably better off leaving it.

Public Pool and Spa Safety Act

www.cdph.ca.gov

Not sure if you draw up a simple schematic of how you think this should all be connected with a salt water chlorinator in line as well. Speaking of, do I have to use a check valve on the sraight run when coming out of my heat pu.p and before getting to salt chlorinator?

No you don't need a check valve there. The SWG should be the last thing before going into the pool.

Hopefully, I didn't miss anything:



You do realize that heating a pool in CA with anything other than solar is going to cost you a fortune. I included solar plumbing in case you want to go that route. Also, I would recommend a large cartridge filter given the cost of water here.

 

[mihzyd777]

That's ok but ideally, I would put all three suction ports on separate lines (skimmer, skimmer, MD). The PB could easily move the MD pipe from the bottom of the skimmer directly to the equipment pad. This would allow separate control of all three. And down the road should you need another separate suction, the MD is available. MD's are pretty much useless for anything other than a high volume suction port. General circulation doesn't require them.

Yes, if that suction pipe is to be used for all three features, then it would be best to make it a 3" line back to the pad. Recommendations (not regulations) from APSP-7 suggest a maximum water velocity of 6 ft/sec in the two branch lines in a MD pair so ideally, you would want the two branch lines to be 4" but again that is more of a recommendation than a regulation. However, the 8' descent return line does not need to be 3" so you can leave that as is. In fact, for head loss balance, you are probably better off leaving it.

Public Pool and Spa Safety Act

www.cdph.ca.gov

No you don't need a check valve there. The SWG should be the last thing before going into the pool.

Hopefully, I didn't miss anything:

View attachment 170913

You do realize that heating a pool in CA with anything other than solar is going to cost you a fortune. I included solar plumbing in case you want to go that route. Also, I would recommend a large cartridge filter given the cost of water here.

Oh wow this is awesome info Thanks so much!!

Ok so this is what I'm doing.
1.) Going to tell Pool Builder to change out the suction side pipes for the water features to 3". Then I'll leave the 8' ft. sheer rain at a 2.5" inch pipe that it already is? Question on that on Pentair manual it states 15gpm per foot of sheer rain so a 8' ft. sheer rain should require 120gpm to function as intended.....so can I get that flow in a 2.5" pipe? I thought I was limited to 90gpm?

2. Also, I think I'm to late on changing the main drains to be seperate. The are connected with a 2" pipe to bottom of skimmer and then the skimmer runs all the way back to pump with a 2.5" pipe. See pics I attached. Hopefully this is ok?

3.) I noticed off the back pump you have "drain" where does that go? Do I just put a hose bib on end of that pipe to hook a hose up to it to drain pool or ?

The pool builder did metion taking the 2 smaller sheer rains that are 36" and going through pool filter & Heater but I told him I want them on their own electronic valves so I can control them from the Intellicenter app and have them run all off the same Intelliflo XF Pump and he was fine with that as well.

Please let me know if I'm

 

[mas985]

1.) Going to tell Pool Builder to change out the suction side pipes for the water features to 3". Then I'll leave the 8' ft. sheer rain at a 2.5" inch pipe that it already is? Question on that on Pentair manual it states 15gpm per foot of sheer rain so a 8' ft. sheer rain should require 120gpm to function as intended.....so can I get that flow in a 2.5" pipe? I thought I was limited to 90gpm?

There are no flow rate limits, only recommendations. 2.5" pipe will handle 120 GPM just fine. It is slightly above the 8 ft/sec recommendation for return plumbing (119 GPM) but that is no big deal. 6 ft/sec is recommend for the suction side but again, that is not a limit, just a recommendation.

2. Also, I think I'm to late on changing the main drains to be seperate. The are connected with a 2" pipe to bottom of skimmer and then the skimmer runs all the way back to pump with a 2.5" pipe. See pics I attached. Hopefully this is ok?

Not too late. The PB just needs to cut the pipe at the skimmer, cap the skimmer end and just extend the MD pipe back to the pad. Easy change. But not a big deal if you leave it.

3.) I noticed off the back pump you have "drain" where does that go? Do I just put a hose bib on end of that pipe to hook a hose up to it to drain pool or ?

You can put a bib on it if you want. I have 1 1/2" pipe end for mine that I can attach a drain hose to. It handles much higher flow rates than a hose bib. But it is your choice.

The pool builder did metion taking the 2 smaller sheer rains that are 36" and going through pool filter & Heater but I told him I want them on their own electronic valves so I can control them from the Intellicenter app and have them run all off the same Intelliflo XF Pump and he was fine with that as well.

Is that so you can turn on and off the 3' descents separate from the 8'? The pump will turn on and off all at the same time. I guess I was assuming if you wanted them on, they would all be on.

 

[mihzyd777]

There are no flow rate limits, only recommendations. 2.5" pipe will handle 120 GPM just fine. It is slightly above the 8 ft/sec recommendation for return plumbing (119 GPM) but that is no big deal. 6 ft/sec is recommended for the suction side but again, that is not a limit, just a recommendation.

Not too late. The PB just needs to cut the pipe at the skimmer, cap the skimmer end and just extend the MD pipe back to the pad. Easy change. But not a big deal if you leave it.

You can put a bib on it if you want. I have 1 1/2" pipe end for mine that I can attach a drain hose to. It handles much higher flow rates than a hose bib. But it is your choice.

Is that so you can turn on and off the 3' descents separate from the 8'? The pump will turn on and off all at the same time. I guess I was assuming if you wanted them on, they would all be on.

Ok so I'm only changing out the suction for the water features to 3" and then leaving the 2.5" for the 8' ft. sheer rain got it.

So if I have him cut the main drain pipe from the skimmer does he have to run a whole new pipe all the way around back to pump or can he tie into the 2.5" line that the skimmer sucks from?

Also, as for the water features, I want to be able to turn on only the 8' ft. rain or only the 2 - 3' rains or all 3 at the same time. Is the best way to put those on an electric Jandy valve and control them from the Intellicenter app? or what is the best way?

Now that you mention it They did run me a pool suction for a suction vacuum but I am not using that for anything but it is only a 1.5" line? Can I do anything with that?

BTW any good tile/rock sealer you can recommend?

Thanks!

 

[mas985]

So if I have him cut the main drain pipe from the skimmer does he have to run a whole new pipe all the way around back to pump or can he tie into the 2.5" line that the skimmer sucks from?

He has to run a completely new pipe back to the pad. Connecting it back into the skimmer line defeats the purpose of separate control. Again, optional.

Also, as for the water features, I want to be able to turn on only the 8' ft. rain or only the 2 - 3' rains or all 3 at the same time. Is the best way to put those on an electric Jandy valve and control them from the Intellicenter app? or what is the best way?

Yes, that works. For three states, you will need to have three actuators on each of the valves.

Now that you mention it They did run me a pool suction for a suction vacuum but I am not using that for anything but it is only a 1.5" line? Can I do anything with that?

Another return line? Fountain?

BTW any good tile/rock sealer you can recommend?

Not in my wheelhouse.