Plumbing Schematic Review - Help?

[ajw22]

Not necessarily. Some channel drains can support dual suction lines:

https://www.poolinspections.com/manuals/drains/avsc-drain-concrete-install-instructions.pdf

I don’t see how that dual suction drain will support the simultaneous operation of the high flow spa jet pump and the lower flow of the pool/spa pump heating and chlorinating the spa.

While the manufacture may claim it works this is the type of decision that is expensive if it does not properly.

It is safer to just use two and know the suction for both pumps will work properly and not interfere with each other.

 

[mas985]

I actually have a similar setup in my spa except I have the traditional split round sumps with two pump lines going to each sump and each pump line tees together the two sumps. There is absolutely no interference between the pumps even when my circulation pump is on low speed. The key as to why this works has to do with the head loss in the cover and sump which is virtually zero. So there is no pressure difference between the two inlet ports.

The same would be true of a multi-port channel drain. However, is this case, you don't need two of them because the drain is large enough by itself to prevent blockage.

You just need to make sure that the sump is rated for the total flow rate of the two pumps.

ANSI/PHTA/ICC-7 2020 American National Standard for Suction Entrapment Avoidance in Swimming Pools..

The purpose of this standard is to establish anti-entrapment performance requirements for public and residential swimming pools, wading pools, field-constructed spas and hot tubs, and any other bather

issuu.com

 

[HermanTX]

Good points. If I move the vacuum line, I still need to shut in the pool suction line valves (drain and skimmer). I don't see how moving upstream the 3-way eliminates me having to shut in those other valves.

I previously considered adding a manual valve downstream the 3-way and upstream the tee where the vacuum line ties in. At the time, thiss seems like the simplest operation to run the vacuum. Shut block valve downstream 3-way, open vacuum valve and turn pump on.

Is there a better way?

The goal is to never have a valve on the suction side be able to be closed without some other valve open. You do not want to starve the pump. You are kinda in that situation as every suction line has a 2 way valve which is either open or closed. So you just need to be wary that not all the 2 way valves (on pool and spa sides) should be closed or you risk no suction at all to the pump.

With that said, another alternative to the vacuum line is to put a simple 3-way valve where it Tees into the main line to the pump. With a 3 valve it will be either open to vacuum (closed to pool/spa) or closed to vacuum (open to pool/spa). This coupled with the 3-way Pool/Spa valve ensures something is open that is unless you close every 2 way valve on the individual lines.

The reason I originally suggested tying it into the pool side of the plumbing is for simplicity. You would normally vaccuum with suction from the pool and return to the pool so that keeps the pool/spa 3-way valve in Pool Mode. Also, you are going to have 4 pipes vertical at your pad on the Pool side - 2 skimmers , a main drain and a vacuum line. It is easier for the plumber to make 1 manifold to connect them then to run a loop for the vacuum line to connect between the pool/spa 3-way and the pump entrance. Some pads barely have 12 inches for that to all fit in leading to the pump. While it looks good in a drawing, practical application is some times more difficult.

 

[Brant]

But with an automated valve you can remove that throttling when not using the bubblers.

So if I'm understanding correctly, I can set the automated valves to be fully open, fully closed, or partially open (throttled) to a specific set point that I predetermine?
I didn't realize these actuators w/intellicenter had that capability.

I'm probably wrong, but I was under the impression that in order to get the sheers to all look the same, that I would need to throttle each sheer independent from the next. Unless each sheer feed line is plumbed identical to the next, I will not have equal flow/friction in all three lines. If I end up with more pipe or fittings in one line over another, couldn't this cause a flow imbalance between the lines and possibly cause more/less flow from one sheer vs the others? To fix this issue, wouldn't I need to throttle the sheer line's valves in order to make them flow/look equal to one another? Seems like this would be the case. If this is the case, won't this also cause head loss on the pump just like you described? Or am I misunderstanding you again?

 

[ajw22]

So if I'm understanding correctly, I can set the automated valves to be fully open, fully closed, or partially open (throttled) to a specific set point that I predetermine?
I didn't realize these actuators w/intellicenter had that capability.

It doesn’t.

Currently Pentair actuators have two positions the automation can move it to.

You can cascade multiple valves which adds complexity.

 

[Brant]

The goal is to never have a valve on the suction side be able to be closed without some other valve open. You do not want to starve the pump.

With that said, another alternative to the vacuum line is to put a simple 3-way valve where it Tees into the main line to the pump.

Good points. I added manual valves to each line (where it comes from the ground) because all my plumbing is below the waterline. I figured it would be nice to be able to block these lines but maybe they are not needed? I guess I figured if a line breaks below a valve, all I need to worry about repairing is the one line that broke. If everything was tied together, I would be dealing with water coming from multiple directions.

So would you plumb it like this or another way?

 

[HermanTX]

Good points. I added manual valves to each line (where it comes from the ground) because all my plumbing is below the waterline. I figured it would be nice to be able to block these lines but maybe they are not needed? I guess I figured if a line breaks below a valve, all I need to worry about repairing is the one line that broke. If everything was tied together, I would be dealing with water coming from multiple directions.

So would you plumb it like this or another way?

This works. It achieves the desired result of either having the vacuum on or the pool suction on.
There are reasons to keep the 2 way valves for isolation or if plumbing is below waterline. I was just indicating to have caution not to close all the 2-way valves unless the pump is taken out of service via turning off circuit breaker.

 

[mas985]

So if I'm understanding correctly, I can set the automated valves to be fully open, fully closed, or partially open (throttled) to a specific set point that I predetermine?

Only 2 of those 3 positions are allowed for a single valve.

I'm probably wrong, but I was under the impression that in order to get the sheers to all look the same, that I would need to throttle each sheer independent from the next. Unless each sheer feed line is plumbed identical to the next, I will not have equal flow/friction in all three lines. If I end up with more pipe or fittings in one line over another, couldn't this cause a flow imbalance between the lines and possibly cause more/less flow from one sheer vs the others? To fix this issue, wouldn't I need to throttle the sheer line's valves in order to make them flow/look equal to one another? Seems like this would be the case. If this is the case, won't this also cause head loss on the pump just like you described? Or am I misunderstanding you again?

No, you understand it perfectly. My only point was that comes at cost of pump efficiency. For the separate sheer feed lines, I would not expect much of a variation between the three so that is unlikely to cause much of a difference in efficiency so I would not be too concerned about that.

However, the head loss difference between the sheers and the bubblers can be much more significant and if you want the same flow rate out of both, then the sheers will most likely have to be throttled down. If you use the same valves for the balancing between the sheers and the throttling of all the sheers when the bubblers are on, this will be quite cumbersome. Having a single valve for throttling all 3 sheers at the same time when the bubblers are on will simplify your life considerably weather you decide to automate that valve or not.

 

[Brant]

Only 2 of those 3 positions are allowed for a single valve.


No, you understand it perfectly. My only point was that comes at cost of pump efficiency. For the separate sheer feed lines, I would not expect much of a variation between the three so that is unlikely to cause much of a difference in efficiency so I would not be too concerned about that.

However, the head loss difference between the sheers and the bubblers can be much more significant and if you want the same flow rate out of both, then the sheers will most likely have to be throttled down. If you use the same valves for the balancing between the sheers and the throttling of all the sheers when the bubblers are on, this will be quite cumbersome. Having a single valve for throttling all 3 sheers at the same time when the bubblers are on will simplify your life considerably weather you decide to automate that valve or not.

Do you know if it's possible to lock out a pump from starting (in the IntelliCenter) if one or more actuated valves are closed? To keep from deadheading a pump?

Im not concerned about me doing this with the waterfall pump but i could see my wife or kids doing this. Is there a way to program this into the IntelliCenter?

 

[mas985]

First, the Intelliflo can detect a dead head condition and shut down on it's own so that by itself is not an issue for the Intelliflo.

However, if you want to prevent that from happening and you plan on running the sheers every time the bubblers are on, then what you could do is move the bubbler 2-way valve to a 3-way valve at the branch between the sheers and the bubblers. That way, the only valve settings would be Sheers only or Sheers + Bubbler and it would not be possible to put the pump into a deadhead condition.

 

[HermanTX]

Do you know if it's possible to lock out a pump from starting (in the IntelliCenter) if one or more actuated valves are closed? To keep from deadheading a pump?

Im not concerned about me doing this with the waterfall pump but i could see my wife or kids doing this. Is there a way to program this into the IntelliCenter?

Actuators are dumb products. The automation systems tells it to activate and the actuator turns. it does not know if it turned on or off a valve. it just turns. It has no setting that monitors flowrate.
Although the Pentair Intellivalve has multiple settings to incrementally open the valve - it is based on how it was set up by the user. Then it will only move between those set points.

 

[Brant]

First, the Intelliflo can detect a dead head condition and shut down on it's own so that by itself is not an issue for the Intelliflo.

However, if you want to prevent that from happening and you plan on running the sheers every time the bubblers are on, then what you could do is move the bubbler 2-way valve to a 3-way valve at the branch between the sheers and the bubblers. That way, the only valve settings would be Sheers only or Sheers + Bubbler and it would not be possible to put the pump into a deadhead condition.

Wouldn't this do the same? Waterfalls on always and automate the bubbler line?

 

[mas985]

Then how do you balance the flow between the bubblers and sheers?

 

[ajw22]

Wouldn't this do the same? Waterfalls on always and automate the bubbler line?View attachment 553326

You guys have to think about the user experience you want setup on the IntelliCenter and if the IC can do it with what simplicity or complexity.

Do you want it to always take one button push to select the water features on or multiple buttons?

 

[Brant]

Actuators are dumb products. The automation systems tells it to activate and the actuator turns. it does not know if it turned on or off a valve. it just turns. It has no setting that monitors flowrate.
Although the Pentair Intellivalve has multiple settings to incrementally open the valve - it is based on how it was set up by the user. Then it will only move between those set points.

Another question on the IntelliCenter...

Are automatic pump adjustments (through IntelliCenter) a feature that you can tie to a automated valve throttling open?

Like when I decide to overflow my spa through the automated valve (not the 3-way using "spillover" mode). Will I need to manually tell the pump to change speeds or can I automate/pre-program a speed increase when I tell the valve to open?

If this is not the case, then I'll probably remove that 2-way spillover valve and check valve and just overflow the spa using "spillover" mode through the 3-way valve. I've sort of been on the fence about this valve anyway.

 

[Brant]

Then how do you balance the flow between the bubblers and sheers?

I assumed I'd set a pump speed for the waterfalls only (get then looking correct and balanced) with their manual valves throttled. Mark that pump speed for waterfalls only.

Then I'd fully open the bubbler valve and increase pump speed and throttle valve until I got what looked good from the bubblers and waterfalls. I figured that the bubblers are less restricted so i would ramp the pump up and then throttle the bubblers back and find a good "open" position for everything.

Then I have 2 pump RPM points that I need to adjust between. Waterfalls only and waterfalls + bubblers.

You don't think this will work?

 

[ajw22]

Another question on the IntelliCenter...

Are automatic pump adjustments (through IntelliCenter) a feature that you can tie to a automated valve throttling open?

Like when I decide to overflow my spa through the automated valve (not the 3-way using "spillover" mode). Will I need to manually tell the pump to change speeds or can I automate/pre-program a speed increase when I tell the valve to open?

If this is not the case, then I'll probably remove that 2-way spillover valve and check valve and just overflow the spa using "spillover" mode through the 3-way valve. I've sort of been on the fence about this valve anyway.

What automated valve are you talking about?

In theory yes, you create a Feature Circuit for the valve and associate a pump speed with it.

Every AUX Circuit and Feature Circuit can have a pump speed associated with it. When multiple circuits are active the pump will run at the highest speed.

 

[Brant]

You guys have to think about the user experience you want setup on the IntelliCenter and if the IC can do it with what simplicity or complexity.

Do you want it to always take one button push to select the water features on or multiple buttons?

I'd prefer to select a valve (open/close) and have the pump adjust RPM as pre-determined. I assumed this was a capability of the IC system.

 

[mas985]

I assumed I'd set a pump speed for the waterfalls only (get then looking correct and balanced) with their manual valves throttled. Mark that pump speed for waterfalls only.

Then I'd fully open the bubbler valve and increase pump speed and throttle valve until I got what looked good from the bubblers and waterfalls. I figured that the bubblers are less restricted so i would ramp the pump up and then throttle the bubblers back and find a good "open" position for everything.

Bubblers are MORE restrictive than the sheers not less. Bubblers have a a 3/4" outlet while the sheers are usually 1.5" outlet.

So no, that will not work.

 

[Brant]

Bubblers are MORE restrictive than the sheers not less. Bubblers have a a 3/4" outlet while the sheers are usually 1.5" outlet.

So no, that will not work.

Dang. That's true.

So I'd need to throttle the waterfalls automated valve position to be partially open and then just change pump speed based on whether its waterfalls only or waterfalls + bubblers.