Planning New Pool

[Duffatola]

Greetings and Happy New Year! We've narrowed our PB selection to two finalists. Both are reputable but I am receiving different opinions regarding how to plumb the project, pipe sizing, pumps, etc. For example, one contractor suggests using a single pump and plumbing the returns to the sheer descents separately and using the filter pump for the bubblers and the other suggests using a single water feature pump to supply both the bubblers and sheer descents but the bubblers and sheers would have a single pipe "teeing" into splits (3 for sheers and 2 for the bubblers) each at the pool.

This is such a great site and I've learned quite a bit by exploring. Additionally everyone is very giving of his/her time in helping novices such as myself better understand the process of building and operating a pool and how to avoid the many pitfalls. Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions with regards to how I can make my build as successful as possible!

Here are the planned specifics of the project:
Pool/Spa Specifications:
Shape: Geometric (Infinity Edge)
Pool Dimensions: 32’ x 26’
Depth: 3’6” to 5’6”
Volume: 16,000 gallons
Spa dimensions: 7’ x 7’ (2-Sided Spillway) Pool Level
Infinity Edge: 25’
Catch Basin: 26’Lx3’Wx4’D
Raised Wall: 16’6”Lx12”Wx12”H
Fire Bowls: Wok Style 28”x28” – 3 ea.
Columns: 2’Lx2’Wx18”’H – 3 ea.
In-Pool Table+Bench
In-Pool Seating Bench
Equipment/Water Features:
Filter (Pool): Pentair Clean & Clear Plus 520
Filter (Basin): Pentair Clean & Clear Plus 320
Chlorinator (Pool): Rainbow #320
Chlorinator (Basin): Rainbow #320
Ozone/UV Sterilizer: Clear 03 Ozone + Ultra UV2
Pump (Filter): Pentair IntelliFlo VSF 3HP
Pump (Edge): Pentair IntelliFlo VSF 3HP
Pump (Water Features): Pentair SuperFlo VSF 2.2HP
Cleaner: Pentair 930 IG Prowler or Polaris 9650iQ
Pool Skimmers: Hayward 2” - 2 Ea.
Pool Lights: 5 Pentair Microbrite
Spa Light: 1 Pentair Microbrite
Basin Light: 1 Pentair Amerlite 12V
Main Drain: A&A Dual Channel Drain
Spa Drain: A&A Dual Channel Drain
Basin Drain: A&A Dual Channel Drain
Controller/Interface: Pentair Intellicenter i9+3 w/SmartLogic2.
Air Blower: Air Silencer 2HP
Spa Jets: 8 therapy jets
Heater: Pentair MasterTemp 400k BTU Natural Gas
Illuminated Bubblers: Pentair Colorvision – 2 ea.
Scuppers – Sheer Descent 2’ – 3 ea.
Leveler: Levolor K1100
Transformer (Bubblers): Pentair 300W
Transformer (Pool/Spa lights): Pentair 300W
Transformer (Landscaping lights): Pentair 300W
Structural Specifications :
Steel (Beam): 12” Box Beam #4 rebar on 8” centers
Steel (Wall/Floor): #3 rebar on 8” centers
Gunite (Beam): 12” X 12”
Gunite (Wall/Floor): 6” Minimum
Gunite (Coves): 8”
Gunite Mix: 6 sacks cement/1 yd sand
Steps & Benches Per Plan – tanning ledge with 2 bubblers and 1 umbrella sleeve
Additional Umbrella Sleeves – 4 (Spa, Bench, In-Pool Table, Seating area)
Plumbing Specifications:
Pool Returns: 2.5” – 7 ea.
Edge Return: 2.5”
Spa Returns: 2” – 2 ea.
Valves: Pentair
Overflow Line: 2” Run with Pop-up
Finish Specifications:
Tile: Travertine
Coping Travertine
Interior Finish: Pebble Sheen
Deck Specifications:
Deck Type: Travertine - 500 sq ft
Sub Base: Stabilized sand w/concrete perimeter
Footers: Concrete
Custom Steps (Lighted): 6 ea
Drainage System: 4” PVC with pop-up

 

[HermanTX]

I like that design. It looks much bigger than 16k gals.
Since you have a spa, there is in my mind, a critical decision to make. When in SPA mode, you take suction from the Spa and return to the Spa. Therefore, if you have a single pump for all, you cannot flow your bubblers or your water feature since they return water to the pool, i.e. you would drain your spa. So if you wish to have those features on while you are in the spa, then a second dedicated pump to the water features is required. They will put in additional suction line from the pool and you simply control that pump separately from your main filtration pump. Depending on your water feature, you may need an additional small filter on that circulation path to prevent the water feature from getting clogged up.

This is quite similar as to how they have set up your basin. It seems to be on a separate circulation system so you do not have to flow over the infinity edge all the time.

I notice you have puck chlorinators and a UV. Please read up on the views of UV at this link

UV Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Have you considered a saltwater chlorine generator (SWCG)? That may be a preferred method to chlorinate your pool.
Also, you only need 1 chlorination system as your pool flows into your basin so if you run your basin 30 mins every day or so, then it will keep your basin at proper chlorination levels. It is just a circulation path; you are pushing more water to your pool from the basin and the pool flows back into the basin. I like that it is separate, so you do not have to constantly flow over the infinite edge.

I am sure others will chime in. Good selection on cartridge filters, IntelliCenter and again, your overall design is unique and looks great.

 

[Turbo1Ton]

I would consider changing the minimum depth to 4'. My pool is 3'-6" water line depth in the shallow end and I would not do that again. If I am in that end of the pool I am walking around on my knees.

I would also ditch the UV/Ozone. I had them initially as well and got rid of them both within 6 months. I did not do enough homework ahead of time to understand how they worked.

And as Herman suggested, I would consider changing from a traditional chlorinator to a SWCG.

If you have not already, you may want to check out the build @BigPapaSmurf just recently completed. Almost done…….

They also have an infinity edge, and may be able to add some insight to your build.

--Jeff

 

[ajw22]

Greetings and Happy New Year! We've narrowed our PB selection to two finalists. Both are reputable but I am receiving different opinions regarding how to plumb the project, pipe sizing, pumps, etc. For example, one contractor suggests using a single pump and plumbing the returns to the sheer descents separately and using the filter pump for the bubblers and the other suggests using a single water feature pump to supply both the bubblers and sheer descents but the bubblers and sheers would have a single pipe "teeing" into splits (3 for sheers and 2 for the bubblers) each at the pool.

The question of whether the sheers and bubbler should be on the same pump or the bubblers on the filter/pump should be answered by the builder doing some basic engineering calculations of required flow rates. Any builder who can't support his recommendation with engineering and is just winging it with opinion I would not use. You would need to wonder what else he is winging in you pool design.

As discussed earlier in this thread it is all about the flow rates for the sheers and bubblers to give you the effects you desire versus what the pump and plumbing can deliver.

You can't just look at the pump specs and say you will get XXX gpm. Every split of the plumbing divides the water flow. The size of the pipes used effects the maximum flow rate you can push through the pipes. The filter and heater will restrict the flow of the filter/pump. Your builder should take all that into consideration.

Also if you put the bubblers on the filter/pump then when you are using the spa do you want the bubblers to be able to run? Will they take flow away from the spa jets?

And what valves will the builder give you to adjust the flow rate of each sheer and bubbler individually? What automated controls will you have to turn the sheers and bubblers on or off?

 

[Duffatola]

If you have not already, you may want to check out the build @BigPapaSmurf just recently completed. Almost done…….

I have, thanks. In fact he lives fairly close to me, is very intelligent after three pool builds and we've been communicating off-line.

 

[Duffatola]

When in SPA mode, you take suction from the Spa and return to the Spa. Therefore, if you have a single pump for all, you cannot flow your bubblers or your water feature since they return water to the pool, i.e. you would drain your spa. So if you wish to have those features on while you are in the spa, then a second dedicated pump to the water features is required. They will put in additional suction line from the pool and you simply control that pump separately from your main filtration pump. Depending on your water feature, you may need an additional small filter on that circulation path to prevent the water feature from getting clogged

When in SPA mode, you take suction from the Spa and return to the Spa. Therefore, if you have a single pump for all, you cannot flow your bubblers or your water feature since they return water to the pool, i.e. you would drain your spa.

@HermanTX If the bubblers are on the same pump with the spa and pool (3 HP filter pump) the bubblers can not be operated at the same time as the spa while it's in spa mode? That's Builder 1's set up. And they put the 3 - 24" sheer descents on a separate (2 HP) water feature pump.

 

[Duffatola]

What are the pros and cons regarding having a raised wall surrounding the catch basin versus having a flush design?

 

[ajw22]

What are the pros and cons regarding having a raised wall surrounding the catch basin versus having a flush design?

You don’t get debris blown into a catch basin with a wall around it. And catch basin overflow does not create a muddy mess.

 

[Duffatola]

Seeking opinions on this set-up for the infinity edge basin plumbing, please? Originally designed with a skimmer but I have opted to not have one in the basin. TIA!

 

[Duffatola]

I am now reconsidering our approach and pondering a SWG instead of a chlorinator for our build.

1. I assume it would be located in the same location of the chlorinator?
2. In my current design, I have a chlorinator and filter dedicated for the infinity edge basin. Would/should this change with a salt water pool? Obviously a double hit for a SWG is an expensive proposition.

 

[ajw22]

I am now reconsidering our approach and pondering a SWG instead of a chlorinator for our build.

1. I assume it would be located in the same location of the chlorinator?

Probably. But without seeing where your chlorinator is located I can't say definitely yes.

1. In my current design, I have a chlorinator and filter dedicated for the infinity edge basin. Would/should this change with a salt water pool? Obviously a double hit for a SWG is an expensive proposition.

Depends how you intend to run your pool. If you will run the pool edge overflow into the catch basin twice a day for 15-30 minutes you will refresh the catch basin with chlorinated water and teh catch basin does not need its own chlorinator.

If you don't run pool water into the catch basin for a day or more then you need to seperately chlorinate it so it does not become a breeding ground for algae.

 

[Duffatola]

Probably. But without seeing where your chlorinator is located I can't say definitely yes.

 

[ajw22]

This is the plumbing for the catch basin. What is the plumbing for the pool?

How will the two of those interact?

 

[Duffatola]

This is the plumbing for the catch basin. What is the plumbing for the pool?

How will the two of those interact?

The catch basin system is independent of the filter pump system but here are the filter pump and water feature pump plumbing diagrams.

 

[ajw22]

The SWG goes where the chlorinator is in your main pump plumbing.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Duff,

I suggest that you use 2-way valves on each skimmer line and replace their 3-way valves with simple "T" fittings. The only 3-way valve will the Intake valve which is the one in front of the pump. Using 2-way valves on each skimmer line gives you much better control than trying to balance your 3-way valve set up. Much easier to repair or modify later if you ever need to.

I would do the same thing on the Spa Common Return line. Only the Return valve would be a 3-way valve.

Why would the catch basin have its own chlorinator no matter what kind it is?? I would treat it like a Spa and have your infinity edge run once or twice a day to keep the basin water chlorinated..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Duffatola]

I suggest that you use 2-way valves on each skimmer line and replace their 3-way valves with simple "T" fittings. The only 3-way valve will the Intake valve which is the one in front of the pump. Using 2-way valves on each skimmer line gives you much better control than trying to balance your 3-way valve set up. Much easier to repair or modify later if you ever need to.

Hi Jim and thanks for the feedback. Agreed, good suggestion.

I would do the same thing on the Spa Common Return line. Only the Return valve would be a 3-way valve.

Agreed, as well. Assume the check valve would be "down stream" of the two-way valve? I'm a bit confused where the 3-way valve would be located for the return and whether you're referring to the pool or spa return. As a side note, again being a novice, I'm confused regarding the difference between a return and a "common" return.

Why would the catch basin have its own chlorinator no matter what kind it is?? I would treat it like a Spa and have your infinity edge run once or twice a day to keep the basin water chlorinated.

This was recommended by "Builder A". I'm sure the PB has its reason(s) but I honestly don't what it(they) are.

Regarding sanitation in general, I'm starting to second guess my methodology. What I do know is a SWG is very expensive compared to a chlorinator to install and the cells are expensive to replace and on the other hand, chlorine tabs will have to be purchased (my guess is they are more expensive than ever and I've also heard there are supply chain issues) and reloaded (more maintenance) for the life of the pool.

 

[ajw22]

What I do know is a SWG is very expensive compared to a chlorinator to install and the cells are expensive to replace and on the other hand, chlorine tabs will have to be purchased (my guess is they are more expensive than ever and I've also heard there are supply chain issues) and reloaded (more maintenance) for the life of the pool.

There has been many cost analysis posted here of SWG vs liquid chlorine vs trichlor tablets. Some use of search will find them.

First of all Trichlor tablets are not a long term chlorination strategy. Especially in TX where you don't drain your pool every winter. Trichlor continuously adds CYA and once CYA gets over 100 the pool chemistry becomes unmanageable and eventually a problem. Pool companies like Trichlor because they can check the pool weekly and get paid to fix the problems.

SWG vs liquid chlorine basically cost the same. The difference is you pay once up front for your chlorine with the SWG. The benefit is you don't have to constantly lug jugs of chlorine and add chlorine every day or two.

There are also Stenner pumps that will automatically pump liquid chlorine or acid into the pool. They still have to be monitored and filled.

TANSTASFL .... a SWG is the best value for chlorinating a pool.

 

[Duffatola]

TANSTASFL .... a SWG is the best value for chlorinating a pool.

AJW, thanks for your feedback. I did quite a bit of research and felt a trichlor system would be the best way to go. That is until I found TFP where it seems many have SWG's and recommend them. Can you tell me how often you've had to replace the SWG? BTW, one learns something new every day (TANSTASFL).

 

[Turbo1Ton]

Can you tell me how often you've had to replace the SWG?

@Jimrahbe - Care to offer your experience? You are the one member I know who has multiple pools all with SWCG's.

--Jeff