Saturn94
Bronze Supporter
- Mar 11, 2015
- 1,864
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
It's from the manual currently listed on Hayward's website, so presumably it's the latest version.
Phosphates.....are they worth removing??
- Thread starter Leebo
- Start date
It's from the manual currently listed on Hayward's website, so presumably it's the latest version.
FWIW - filter was remarkably clean on inspection and lanthanum did not in anyway gum up filter 
(Though this may also mean it didn't work well...not sure at this point )
You could see a few white crystals on top of the bed, but no gumminess, no channeling, sand was good n sharp despite many years both unchanged AND not deep cleaned for at least 7 years (five that we owned, 2 foreclosed).
So my quip to the techs, who agreed the sand was in great shape, was that I'd change it again in a million years or so At least now we know never to give it another thought! We had to do it once to find out.
I've written to the mfg re:suspect results/testing error/possible application errr and will update if I learn anything new.
(Though this may also mean it didn't work well...not sure at this point )You could see a few white crystals on top of the bed, but no gumminess, no channeling, sand was good n sharp despite many years both unchanged AND not deep cleaned for at least 7 years (five that we owned, 2 foreclosed).
So my quip to the techs, who agreed the sand was in great shape, was that I'd change it again in a million years or so
At least now we know never to give it another thought! We had to do it once to find out.I've written to the mfg re:suspect results/testing error/possible application errr and will update if I learn anything new.
UPDATE:
SeaKlear rep sez not to use aquarium kit because it is breaking down TOTAL phosphates, including poly phosphates, via the reagent process. Makes sense as there is a 2 min step interlude between the use of 3 different reagents that would suggest this is hats going on. Will try to confirm with Hagen that this is true for the posterity of this thread and future advice to others.
If this is true, then our original reading were including active sequestrant...which makes a lot of sense on several fronts.
Checked with Taylor...they've confirmed that THEIR test process does NOT...that they believe careful dilution is valid, and that although ferrous iron and sulphate can interfere with reagents, the dilution negates this.
Second Seaklear theory that seems appropriate is that reagents are picking up the lanthanum-phosphate created by the process. Though water is clear, I think retesting in another day or so with this possibility in mind makes sense.
Going forward, will dilute at lower ranges with the Taylor kit for a higher degree of accuracy and report back
SeaKlear rep sez not to use aquarium kit because it is breaking down TOTAL phosphates, including poly phosphates, via the reagent process. Makes sense as there is a 2 min step interlude between the use of 3 different reagents that would suggest this is hats going on. Will try to confirm with Hagen that this is true for the posterity of this thread and future advice to others.
If this is true, then our original reading were including active sequestrant...which makes a lot of sense on several fronts.
Checked with Taylor...they've confirmed that THEIR test process does NOT...that they believe careful dilution is valid, and that although ferrous iron and sulphate can interfere with reagents, the dilution negates this.
Second Seaklear theory that seems appropriate is that reagents are picking up the lanthanum-phosphate created by the process. Though water is clear, I think retesting in another day or so with this possibility in mind makes sense.
Going forward, will dilute at lower ranges with the Taylor kit for a higher degree of accuracy and report back
- May 23, 2015
- 25,704
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Excellent update Swampwoman!! Thank you for chasing down that lead. It's also shows why one needs to be careful using test kits that are not specifically designed for pool water analysis. I had no idea that the aquarium kit would break down polyphosphates into orthophosphates but it makes total sense from an aquarium standpoint.
So the question that never will be answered is, how bad was your original water in reality?
So the question that never will be answered is, how bad was your original water in reality?
Saturn94
Bronze Supporter
- Mar 11, 2015
- 1,864
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
UPDATE:
SeaKlear rep sez not to use aquarium kit because it is breaking down TOTAL phosphates, including poly phosphates, via the reagent process. Makes sense as there is a 2 min step interlude between the use of 3 different reagents that would suggest this is hats going on. Will try to confirm with Hagen that this is true for the posterity of this thread and future advice to others.
If this is true, then our original reading were including active sequestrant...which makes a lot of sense on several fronts.
Checked with Taylor...they've confirmed that THEIR test process does NOT...that they believe careful dilution is valid, and that although ferrous iron and sulphate can interfere with reagents, the dilution negates this.
Second Seaklear theory that seems appropriate is that reagents are picking up the lanthanum-phosphate created by the process. Though water is clear, I think retesting in another day or so with this possibility in mind makes sense.
Going forward, will dilute at lower ranges with the Taylor kit for a higher degree of accuracy and report back
Excellent info! Thank you. :-D
And THAT's the $64,000 question, isn't it!
During my convo with Jacks, I had asked the tech if since purple instruction said maintenance required was 10-12 ppm (that would be 10,000 to 12,000 PPB of polyphosphonic acid) and to add roughly 12 oz a week to maintain, how much of that would convert to orthophosphate.
He didn't know, but said the most orthophosphate he'd seen build up was about 1200 ppb over 4-6 weeks.
To which I replied, well, that corresponds roughly with two 5-mo. seasons worth of sequestrant, which would explain my increase (if true) from 25,000 to 37,000 ppb po4.
To which he'd said I was right, it would mean about 6,000 ppb a season.
If we are constantly maintaining diphosphonic acid, where does it go? He says the filter, via calcium, in theory.
I need to know more about what happens to poly phosphates when they break down! To be continued
(Y'all can ignore if you like...I'm using this to piece together tidbits I want to save)
CHLORINE'S RELATIONSHIP WITH HEDP: Per this patent: Patent US4759852 - Use of sulfamic acid to inhibit phosphonate decomposition by chlorine ... - Google Patenter
The use of phosphonates for scale and corrosion control in recirculating cooling water is widely practiced as is the use of chlorine for microbiological control. However, the use of these two practices simultaneously can cause problems. Chlorine has been demonstrated to break down many phosphonates to a significant extent. When this happens in a field application, the effectiveness of the phosphonate as a scale control agent is degraded and the orthophosphate which is a product of this reaction can contribute to scaling problems. Even some reputedly chlorine-resistant phosphonates such as 1,1-hydroxyethylidine diphosphonic acid (HEDP) are not sufficiently stable for some industrial applications where continuous chlorination is practiced. Under carefully controlled conditions where the free chlorine residual is kept at a low constant level, breakdown of HEDP is minimal. However, under the less well controlled environment found in a typical plant cooling circuit, excessive chlorine levels are frequently observed. Under these conditions, HEDP or other phosphonates can break down to a sufficient degree to cause problems. Additionally, a number of dissolved ions typically found in cooling waters have been found to catalyze the breakdown of phosphonates.
FIELD TESTING COLORMETRICS From VicWaterwatch re phosphonic testing in the FIELD (streams, not pools, but germane to colormetric testing)
http://www.vic.waterwatch.org.au/file/inform/phos_infosummary.doc
TWO TYPES OF PHOSPHATE TEST: From WQ consultants: (NB re Ascorbic Acid versus Amino Acid testing) "How are phosphate dosages controlled?
Since phosphates do not change basic water chemistry, measuring phosphate residuals in the raw and finished water is necessary to monitor the dosage rate. Orthophosphate ion (PO4) is the most common species used to measure the initial and total quantity of phosphate in the water. Orthophosphate can be measured on a cold-water sample, while the total phosphate requires a digestion step to break down all other forms of phosphate to the ortho form. Simple field or lab test kits can be used to monitor all forms. Subtracting the initial orthophosphate quantity from the total phosphate yields the quantity of polyphosphate present in the finished water (Total-Ortho=Poly). Phosphorus, reactive (Hach method 8048), also called orthophosphate Phos Ver 3 (Ascorbic Acid) method is used widely to determine orthophosphate residual in water. Phosphorus, Acid Hydrolyzable (Hach method 8180) is used to determine total phosphate concentration in water.
As water ages, polyphosphates loose their ability to control color and suspend iron/manganese, when they chemically revert to orthophosphate.
PER HAGEN FAQ RE AQUARIUM PHOSHPATE TEST (Not avail by phone, after hours)
agen
PO43- is one form of orthophosphate, because it is also possible to find H2PO4- and HPO42-. All are phosphate compounds that our test kit can read. The ratio between them depends on different factors, such as pH.
PO3 is a Phosphonate, and it is normally not present in aquarium water. It could come in the aquarium with some special and hard medications or algaecides. The PO3 compound is not stable and it will be rapidly oxidized by oxygen to be transformed into Phosphate (PO4). I have never tested with our phosphate kit, we do not have material in the laboratory to verify, however do not expect to be able to read PO3 with our test kit.
NB Arsenate, chromium, nitrite and sulfide will cause positive interference.
MOST FASCINATING DISCUSSION ABOUT SWG EXACERBATING PO4 CREATION/BREAKDOWN FROM AQUA MAGAZINE:While chlorine generators have swept the industry, background knowledge still lacks - AQUA Magazine
But in reality, these units ( ref to SWG) are more like small chlorine factories that take in salty pool water and output chlorine. Inside the factory, however, work proceeds under some rather extreme conditions. At some points inside the generator, chlorine concentrations can reach 50 ppm (the normal recommended level for pool water is a maximum of 4 ppm), pH can be either close to 14 or 0 (normal levels are between 7.2 and 7.8) and temperatures can exceed 120 degrees.
Other chemicals present in the pool water along with the salt can break down when exposed to these conditions, Harper notes, becoming ineffective at best, and harmful new compounds at worst.
So while the water throughout most of the pool may be perfectly balanced, says Kirk Mitchell of Kirk Mitchell and Associates, Marietta, Ga., "at the interface with the chlorine generator you are producing chlorine at very high levels. In the presence of that combination of high chlorine and either very high or very low pH (depending on which electrode you are near), some of the conventional chemicals out there will undergo what is known as hydrolysis, where they're chemically attacked. This is occurring in a very finite area of the cell, but it's occurring."
A prime example is HEDP, a chemical commonly incorporated in startups, but often reapplied at various frequencies. "It's one of the most popular anti-scaling or sequestering agents used in the industry," says Harper. "Phosphorus-based HEDP, or phosphonic acid, works pretty well in a traditional pool to control stain and scale, but in a saltwater pool where you have these extreme conditions, this product tends to degrade and break down into orthophosphate."
Steve Carlyle, a consultant with Pristiva with three decades of experience in the pool business as well as expertise in salt, picks up the story here. "Orthophosphate is a double-edged problem in pools," he says.
"First of all, orthophosphate is a fertilizer; it's an excellent plant food. In the pools we looked at, once HEDP had broken down into orthophosphate, the moment the chlorine residual dropped in the pool for whatever reason, we were seeing algae just take off."
Unfortunately, that was only part of the problem. "At the same time," Carlyle says, "orthophosphate also is one of the fastest-forming types of scale, and it formed on the cell itself and other surfaces. Phosphate scale itself is easily removed, but it promotes other forms of scale that tend to layer in right on top of it, and these are very difficult to remove. Phosphate scale acts like a primer for more-problematic forms of scale such as calcium carbonate and other sulfate forms.
"People were using this product to prevent scaling on a salt chlorine generator cell, but instead it was degrading into an orthophosphate and actually promoting scaling and in fact shortening the life of the cell. And finally, the generator couldn't produce chlorine as well because it was partially scaled up, while at the same time algae was being stimulated with its favorite food."
So in effect, a chemical added to prevent scale and stain was not only reduced by the chlorine generator, but also changed into a substance that promotes scaling and algae growth, while at the same time inhibiting the generator's ability to fight algae.
Carlyle cites the astronomical chlorine level as the real culprit. "Chlorine is just a tough chemical - it's a great oxidizer and it's effective at killing bacteria and algae, but it's also effective at dismantling a lot of chemicals. Most of these chemicals that we're talking about have been designed to withstand about 10 ppm of chlorine - that's about the level you would shock the pool. They're just not able to withstand the 50 ppm they see inside the generator."
Link on polyphosphate reversion to orthophosphate in cooling tower water: http://www.veoliawatertech.com/crownsolutions/ressources/documents/2/21920,Water-pp248-255.pdf
CHLORINE'S RELATIONSHIP WITH HEDP: Per this patent: Patent US4759852 - Use of sulfamic acid to inhibit phosphonate decomposition by chlorine ... - Google Patenter
The use of phosphonates for scale and corrosion control in recirculating cooling water is widely practiced as is the use of chlorine for microbiological control. However, the use of these two practices simultaneously can cause problems. Chlorine has been demonstrated to break down many phosphonates to a significant extent. When this happens in a field application, the effectiveness of the phosphonate as a scale control agent is degraded and the orthophosphate which is a product of this reaction can contribute to scaling problems. Even some reputedly chlorine-resistant phosphonates such as 1,1-hydroxyethylidine diphosphonic acid (HEDP) are not sufficiently stable for some industrial applications where continuous chlorination is practiced. Under carefully controlled conditions where the free chlorine residual is kept at a low constant level, breakdown of HEDP is minimal. However, under the less well controlled environment found in a typical plant cooling circuit, excessive chlorine levels are frequently observed. Under these conditions, HEDP or other phosphonates can break down to a sufficient degree to cause problems. Additionally, a number of dissolved ions typically found in cooling waters have been found to catalyze the breakdown of phosphonates.
FIELD TESTING COLORMETRICS From VicWaterwatch re phosphonic testing in the FIELD (streams, not pools, but germane to colormetric testing)
http://www.vic.waterwatch.org.au/file/inform/phos_infosummary.doc
TWO TYPES OF PHOSPHATE TEST: From WQ consultants: (NB re Ascorbic Acid versus Amino Acid testing) "How are phosphate dosages controlled?
Since phosphates do not change basic water chemistry, measuring phosphate residuals in the raw and finished water is necessary to monitor the dosage rate. Orthophosphate ion (PO4) is the most common species used to measure the initial and total quantity of phosphate in the water. Orthophosphate can be measured on a cold-water sample, while the total phosphate requires a digestion step to break down all other forms of phosphate to the ortho form. Simple field or lab test kits can be used to monitor all forms. Subtracting the initial orthophosphate quantity from the total phosphate yields the quantity of polyphosphate present in the finished water (Total-Ortho=Poly). Phosphorus, reactive (Hach method 8048), also called orthophosphate Phos Ver 3 (Ascorbic Acid) method is used widely to determine orthophosphate residual in water. Phosphorus, Acid Hydrolyzable (Hach method 8180) is used to determine total phosphate concentration in water.
As water ages, polyphosphates loose their ability to control color and suspend iron/manganese, when they chemically revert to orthophosphate.
PER HAGEN FAQ RE AQUARIUM PHOSHPATE TEST (Not avail by phone, after hours)
agen
PO43- is one form of orthophosphate, because it is also possible to find H2PO4- and HPO42-. All are phosphate compounds that our test kit can read. The ratio between them depends on different factors, such as pH.
PO3 is a Phosphonate, and it is normally not present in aquarium water. It could come in the aquarium with some special and hard medications or algaecides. The PO3 compound is not stable and it will be rapidly oxidized by oxygen to be transformed into Phosphate (PO4). I have never tested with our phosphate kit, we do not have material in the laboratory to verify, however do not expect to be able to read PO3 with our test kit.
NB Arsenate, chromium, nitrite and sulfide will cause positive interference.
MOST FASCINATING DISCUSSION ABOUT SWG EXACERBATING PO4 CREATION/BREAKDOWN FROM AQUA MAGAZINE:While chlorine generators have swept the industry, background knowledge still lacks - AQUA Magazine
But in reality, these units ( ref to SWG) are more like small chlorine factories that take in salty pool water and output chlorine. Inside the factory, however, work proceeds under some rather extreme conditions. At some points inside the generator, chlorine concentrations can reach 50 ppm (the normal recommended level for pool water is a maximum of 4 ppm), pH can be either close to 14 or 0 (normal levels are between 7.2 and 7.8) and temperatures can exceed 120 degrees.
Other chemicals present in the pool water along with the salt can break down when exposed to these conditions, Harper notes, becoming ineffective at best, and harmful new compounds at worst.
So while the water throughout most of the pool may be perfectly balanced, says Kirk Mitchell of Kirk Mitchell and Associates, Marietta, Ga., "at the interface with the chlorine generator you are producing chlorine at very high levels. In the presence of that combination of high chlorine and either very high or very low pH (depending on which electrode you are near), some of the conventional chemicals out there will undergo what is known as hydrolysis, where they're chemically attacked. This is occurring in a very finite area of the cell, but it's occurring."
A prime example is HEDP, a chemical commonly incorporated in startups, but often reapplied at various frequencies. "It's one of the most popular anti-scaling or sequestering agents used in the industry," says Harper. "Phosphorus-based HEDP, or phosphonic acid, works pretty well in a traditional pool to control stain and scale, but in a saltwater pool where you have these extreme conditions, this product tends to degrade and break down into orthophosphate."
Steve Carlyle, a consultant with Pristiva with three decades of experience in the pool business as well as expertise in salt, picks up the story here. "Orthophosphate is a double-edged problem in pools," he says.
"First of all, orthophosphate is a fertilizer; it's an excellent plant food. In the pools we looked at, once HEDP had broken down into orthophosphate, the moment the chlorine residual dropped in the pool for whatever reason, we were seeing algae just take off."
Unfortunately, that was only part of the problem. "At the same time," Carlyle says, "orthophosphate also is one of the fastest-forming types of scale, and it formed on the cell itself and other surfaces. Phosphate scale itself is easily removed, but it promotes other forms of scale that tend to layer in right on top of it, and these are very difficult to remove. Phosphate scale acts like a primer for more-problematic forms of scale such as calcium carbonate and other sulfate forms.
"People were using this product to prevent scaling on a salt chlorine generator cell, but instead it was degrading into an orthophosphate and actually promoting scaling and in fact shortening the life of the cell. And finally, the generator couldn't produce chlorine as well because it was partially scaled up, while at the same time algae was being stimulated with its favorite food."
So in effect, a chemical added to prevent scale and stain was not only reduced by the chlorine generator, but also changed into a substance that promotes scaling and algae growth, while at the same time inhibiting the generator's ability to fight algae.
Carlyle cites the astronomical chlorine level as the real culprit. "Chlorine is just a tough chemical - it's a great oxidizer and it's effective at killing bacteria and algae, but it's also effective at dismantling a lot of chemicals. Most of these chemicals that we're talking about have been designed to withstand about 10 ppm of chlorine - that's about the level you would shock the pool. They're just not able to withstand the 50 ppm they see inside the generator."
Link on polyphosphate reversion to orthophosphate in cooling tower water: http://www.veoliawatertech.com/crownsolutions/ressources/documents/2/21920,Water-pp248-255.pdf
Saturn94
Bronze Supporter
- Mar 11, 2015
- 1,864
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
- Sep 23, 2015
- 2,012
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Astral Viron V25
SW, a lot of really good info there and I'm sure if you keep digging you'll find a lot more. But there's a risk that your over complicating things. Regardless of phosphorus species at 50,000ppb when you want to be some where under 5,000ppb for scaling I don't think a little variation in testing is going to make much difference.
It's not to hard to dechlorinate a sample by airation.
It's not to hard to dechlorinate a sample by airation.
I don't actually believe I need to be under 5,000 ppb for scaling. But again, have no real idea However, I do want to be able to test accurately enough to corroborate and repeat, and understand what's going on in phosphate removal and phosphate testing
On that front UPDATE STARLOG 04/26:
New protocol - rinse all test vials with vinegar, then distilled water, as ppb can accumulate in multiple tests (per Seaklear tech)
Per Taylor tech - start at 9:1 -- color=over
Next stop: 19:1 = color slightly under max. Best guess: 18,000 - 20,000 ppb
This is encouraging.
This was yesterday's water, saved, prior to adding 25 lbs calcium and 11 lb borate. I will test tomorrow once everything has settled down.
In other news, the morning started with a frog in the PUMP. He did not survive the impeller. Hi ho.
Weird test of the day goes to Taylor salt kit:
Is the reagent supposed to get blobby? As if flocced? Reagent clumped a lot and gave crazy reading of 33 for insane 6600 ppm but test strip remained calm at an increased 2700. Prior tests had triangulated with Taylor, Strips and pool techs Hach meter yesterday at 2400 -- added one 50 lb bag -- so I'm ignoring this result but it makes me wonder if there's still lanthanum in water and f same can cause interference.
Electrician is coming out Saturday to wire box. May wait to see what aquarite thinks my salt is, since that's what matters Waiting to start adding cya until tomorrow.
However, I do want to be able to test accurately enough to corroborate and repeat, and understand what's going on in phosphate removal and phosphate testing On that front UPDATE STARLOG 04/26:
New protocol - rinse all test vials with vinegar, then distilled water, as ppb can accumulate in multiple tests (per Seaklear tech)
Per Taylor tech - start at 9:1 -- color=over
Next stop: 19:1 = color slightly under max. Best guess: 18,000 - 20,000 ppb
This is encouraging.
This was yesterday's water, saved, prior to adding 25 lbs calcium and 11 lb borate. I will test tomorrow once everything has settled down.
In other news, the morning started with a frog in the PUMP. He did not survive the impeller. Hi ho.
Weird test of the day goes to Taylor salt kit:
Is the reagent supposed to get blobby? As if flocced? Reagent clumped a lot and gave crazy reading of 33 for insane 6600 ppm but test strip remained calm at an increased 2700. Prior tests had triangulated with Taylor, Strips and pool techs Hach meter yesterday at 2400 -- added one 50 lb bag -- so I'm ignoring this result but it makes me wonder if there's still lanthanum in water and f same can cause interference.
Electrician is coming out Saturday to wire box. May wait to see what aquarite thinks my salt is, since that's what matters
Waiting to start adding cya until tomorrow.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,704
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
The chloride test produces silver chloride from the reaction between the titrant (silver nitrate) and the chloride (Cl-) ions in the water. Silver chloride is an insoluble white substance. As you drop the titrant in, the solution turns from a clear pale yellow color (from the potassium chromate indicator) into a milky white/yellow color. As soon as the last bit of chloride is consumed, the solution will turn a salmon-red color form the formation of silver chromate and then a dark, brick-red color as you continue to add titrant. You consider the test done as soon as you get the first salmon-red color and you stop. If you wait for it to develop a full, brick-red color then you've gone too far.
Perhaps you can call Taylor again and ask about possible phosphate interference. Silver nitrate can react with phosphate to form an insoluble silver phosphate compound -
3 AgNO3(aq) + PO43-(aq) ----> 3 NO3-(aq) + Ag3PO4(s)
However, 1 mol of phosphate consumes 3 mols of silver nitrate (titrant) to form 1 mol of silver phosphate. So even if your phosphate level was 50,000ppb (50ppm), then you'd need roughly 150ppm of titrant to react with it and that would be only about 1 drop extra of the titrant since each drop yields 200ppm.
I tend to trust the K-1766 over any other method because it actually measures chloride concentration. Strips work on solution capillarity which, like hydrometry, is a proxy method for measuring salt and can be interfered with by many variables not least of which is sample temperature.
At the end of the day, you have to make the SWG happy. So, barring a bad cell straight out of the package, if the unit tells you the salt level is low, then you need to add salt. However, I would caution you to only do that once the water is warmer and closer to typical swim temperatures. Water temperature can affect the cell's reading of TDS (even though the Hayward cells seem to be the most accurate of the bunch), so you want to be very cautious of making any determination of a cells performance when the water is cold (less than 70F).
Perhaps you can call Taylor again and ask about possible phosphate interference. Silver nitrate can react with phosphate to form an insoluble silver phosphate compound -
3 AgNO3(aq) + PO43-(aq) ----> 3 NO3-(aq) + Ag3PO4(s)
However, 1 mol of phosphate consumes 3 mols of silver nitrate (titrant) to form 1 mol of silver phosphate. So even if your phosphate level was 50,000ppb (50ppm), then you'd need roughly 150ppm of titrant to react with it and that would be only about 1 drop extra of the titrant since each drop yields 200ppm.
I tend to trust the K-1766 over any other method because it actually measures chloride concentration. Strips work on solution capillarity which, like hydrometry, is a proxy method for measuring salt and can be interfered with by many variables not least of which is sample temperature.
At the end of the day, you have to make the SWG happy. So, barring a bad cell straight out of the package, if the unit tells you the salt level is low, then you need to add salt. However, I would caution you to only do that once the water is warmer and closer to typical swim temperatures. Water temperature can affect the cell's reading of TDS (even though the Hayward cells seem to be the most accurate of the bunch), so you want to be very cautious of making any determination of a cells performance when the water is cold (less than 70F).
Good to know. I have now warmed the water to 72 in prep for installation...should I jack it up a bit more before Saturday for optimal Aquarite reading? In season, we run about 87-88.
Today was my third Taylor salt test and the other two days it behaved as you described and accorded with the salt strips.
What happened that was different this time was there was a clump/blob of something in the center that was holding a bit of orange but not distributing despite swirling...but it happened exactly the same way the second time I tested. I wonder if it picked up the chloride part of lanthanum chloride, if in fact there's any left...water looks clear?
Today was my third Taylor salt test and the other two days it behaved as you described and accorded with the salt strips.
What happened that was different this time was there was a clump/blob of something in the center that was holding a bit of orange but not distributing despite swirling...but it happened exactly the same way the second time I tested. I wonder if it picked up the chloride part of lanthanum chloride, if in fact there's any left...water looks clear?
- May 23, 2015
- 25,704
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
The lanthanum chloride (LaCl3) adds chloride to the water just as hydrogen chloride (HCl) or sodium chloride (NaCl) do. The chloride ion (Cl-) completely dissociates from whatever compound phase it is in and forms it's typical aqua-hydrated dipole bonded phase (it takes about five water molecules to fully solvate a chloride ion and screen the chloride ion charge). So, for all intents and purposes there is no more "lanthanum chloride" in the water anymore just as there is no sodium chloride or hydrogen chloride. Once the ions are liberated into solution, they redistribute and become fully soluble (as long as charge neutrality is maintained).
It's unclear what that "blob" is in your water sample. If you have a SpeedStir, that helps greatly in making this particular test accurate and I would suggest you use that. If not, perhaps you can get a glass stirring rod and make sure that the solution is properly agitated when doing the test.
It's unclear what that "blob" is in your water sample. If you have a SpeedStir, that helps greatly in making this particular test accurate and I would suggest you use that. If not, perhaps you can get a glass stirring rod and make sure that the solution is properly agitated when doing the test.
Good morning. I'm feeling about ready to pack it in lab wise on a couple of fronts
First, the PO4 front is going nowhere: Tested 19:1, after cleaning with vinegar, distilled water, etc. etc. Appears darker than 20,000 ppb this time. Going to stop dilution testing and wait until my Hanna meter comes.
Talked to Hanna yesterday...they confirmed it tests orthophosphates to 30,000 ppb via amino acid method. Not total/polyphosphates. They believe its suitable to my purpose.
Second -- and this is freaking me out -- this is my fifth season since taking over the swamp. From the day it was clear, I have NEVER zeroed out on FC, except battling AA once at an already and deliberately low FC.
For two mornings in a row, with an FC dose to 7.5 the day prior, I've read ZERO FC. I can't believe it. Dosed to 10, waited 20 min., and read to 10...so its not disappearing ala ammonia or anything and my cya is stable at 40.
Here are the things I've added Monday: 1. Pool guy added 1 50 lb bag of solar salt. 2. I added 25 lbs in rounds of Proteams Calcium up. 3. I added 11 pounds of Boric acid from Duda Diesel, where I always get it. Perhaps I should test it to make sure in a glass of water it acts like boric acid...
Water is crystal clear. I was going to start adding cya for the swg, but I'm gonna wait and see if whatever's going on straightens out by tomorrow.
All I can say is ignorance was bliss Hi ho. Send me the POP...
First, the PO4 front is going nowhere: Tested 19:1, after cleaning with vinegar, distilled water, etc. etc. Appears darker than 20,000 ppb this time. Going to stop dilution testing and wait until my Hanna meter comes.
Talked to Hanna yesterday...they confirmed it tests orthophosphates to 30,000 ppb via amino acid method. Not total/polyphosphates. They believe its suitable to my purpose.
Second -- and this is freaking me out -- this is my fifth season since taking over the swamp. From the day it was clear, I have NEVER zeroed out on FC, except battling AA once at an already and deliberately low FC.
For two mornings in a row, with an FC dose to 7.5 the day prior, I've read ZERO FC. I can't believe it. Dosed to 10, waited 20 min., and read to 10...so its not disappearing ala ammonia or anything and my cya is stable at 40.
Here are the things I've added Monday: 1. Pool guy added 1 50 lb bag of solar salt. 2. I added 25 lbs in rounds of Proteams Calcium up. 3. I added 11 pounds of Boric acid from Duda Diesel, where I always get it. Perhaps I should test it to make sure in a glass of water it acts like boric acid...
Water is crystal clear. I was going to start adding cya for the swg, but I'm gonna wait and see if whatever's going on straightens out by tomorrow.
All I can say is ignorance was bliss
Hi ho. Send me the POP...
- May 23, 2015
- 25,704
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Wow, sorry to hear about your troubles SW. The last few weeks have not been kind to you pool-wise.
Do you plan get the optical calibration standards from Hanna as well?
What's your current CYA level? Maybe a full round of tests is in order and an OCLT so we can help straighten this all out...
Do you plan get the optical calibration standards from Hanna as well?
What's your current CYA level? Maybe a full round of tests is in order and an OCLT so we can help straighten this all out...
The Hanna meter calibrates to your water before reagent; its colorimetric.
I am just now home from work downtown today and m FC has zeroed out again.
Full test from a.m. Is as follows:
Ph 7.6 ish, higher than normal for this pool
TA was back down to 80 from 90 yesterday, but Its normal for me to see a temporary spike after adding boric acid
CH is now reading 110 -- less than I dosed to ....should have been closer to 130
CYA was at 40, which its been at since my many vacuum to wastes
SALT riding around 2650-2700 mark per test strips...didn't do Taylor today due to funky glob yesterday
In other words, all other parameters are very close to normal expectations in my pool. Just can't seem to hold chlorine.
Wild-Arsed Theory A: AUS referred to a high level of PO4 that was "limiting" to algae growth. Could it be that I've dropped from the extremely high, limiting level to a lower, "nutritious" level that is fostering nascent algae?
Wild-Arsed Theory #2: some residual of high dose of lanthanum is combining with some element of calcium up or boric acid to create "something" AA like in its fight with chlorine.
Wild-Arsed Theory #3: Turned heater on to raise temp for Sat. Electrician visit to wire swg box. Heater line ad antifreeze? Antifreeze now fighting FC?
Kinda at a loss here.
8:40 pm - checked FC again; nothing, zero, zilch; ph 7.6 same as this morning.
Dosed 2 gal 12% bleach at 8:40; will check at 8:50 and 9:00 to rule out ammonia byproduct in SeaKlear (none shown on msds but now wondering.)
8:50 pm FC reads 8 - shoulda been 10 ppm...maybe not mixed enough
9:00 pm reads 10 ppm ... Exactly where it should be.
Debating reading at 10 pm he 5 am - early morning tomorrow.
I am just now home from work downtown today and m FC has zeroed out again.
Full test from a.m. Is as follows:
Ph 7.6 ish, higher than normal for this pool
TA was back down to 80 from 90 yesterday, but Its normal for me to see a temporary spike after adding boric acid
CH is now reading 110 -- less than I dosed to ....should have been closer to 130
CYA was at 40, which its been at since my many vacuum to wastes
SALT riding around 2650-2700 mark per test strips...didn't do Taylor today due to funky glob yesterday
In other words, all other parameters are very close to normal expectations in my pool. Just can't seem to hold chlorine.
Wild-Arsed Theory A: AUS referred to a high level of PO4 that was "limiting" to algae growth. Could it be that I've dropped from the extremely high, limiting level to a lower, "nutritious" level that is fostering nascent algae?
Wild-Arsed Theory #2: some residual of high dose of lanthanum is combining with some element of calcium up or boric acid to create "something" AA like in its fight with chlorine.
Wild-Arsed Theory #3: Turned heater on to raise temp for Sat. Electrician visit to wire swg box. Heater line ad antifreeze? Antifreeze now fighting FC?
Kinda at a loss here.
8:40 pm - checked FC again; nothing, zero, zilch; ph 7.6 same as this morning.
Dosed 2 gal 12% bleach at 8:40; will check at 8:50 and 9:00 to rule out ammonia byproduct in SeaKlear (none shown on msds but now wondering.)
8:50 pm FC reads 8 - shoulda been 10 ppm...maybe not mixed enough
9:00 pm reads 10 ppm ... Exactly where it should be.
Debating reading at 10 pm he 5 am - early morning tomorrow.
I agree with ALL the previous 256 post. Having read and memorized them all, I now have a "jug" of PhosFree, un-opened, for the small price of $20 plus shipping!! Any takers????
Sami
PS...Make that $15....I'm feeling generous......
Sami
PS...Make that $15....I'm feeling generous......
Yeah, Sami, they say if it ain't broke...less is more and all that...but despite my current distress and Luddite suspicion of jinxing a good thing I am genuinely curious about what's going on here
I will eventually make this pool hold its mojo, I've beaten it into submission once before, but I'm a bit disgusted that the pool industry does not appear to be catching up at all to the boiler industry on this phenom. In a lab, how hard can it be to test these things?
Example: As a backup plan, I wrote to aqua magazine asking if they'd heard of any method to remove phosphate scale from a salt cell. Said they didn't even know who would know Meanwhile, a google search on my part reveals a patent of a process using sulphates to remove same in boilers...not that I'm going to try sulphates in my pool
The lack of intel on this subject is frustrating. I'm no scientist (as my spotty testing may reveal) but I'm starting to feel like I'm approximately the only person who cares about this when the mfgs OUGHT to.
I will eventually make this pool hold its mojo, I've beaten it into submission once before, but I'm a bit disgusted that the pool industry does not appear to be catching up at all to the boiler industry on this phenom. In a lab, how hard can it be to test these things?
Example: As a backup plan, I wrote to aqua magazine asking if they'd heard of any method to remove phosphate scale from a salt cell. Said they didn't even know who would know
Meanwhile, a google search on my part reveals a patent of a process using sulphates to remove same in boilers...not that I'm going to try sulphates in my pool The lack of intel on this subject is frustrating. I'm no scientist (as my spotty testing may reveal) but I'm starting to feel like I'm approximately the only person who cares about this when the mfgs OUGHT to.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,704
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Theory 1 & 2 are doubtful at best.
Theory 3 - are you saying that you HAD antifreeze in line or you only THINK it had a/f in the line?? If it had a/f, then yes, antifreeze would create an FC demand.
As for Hanna, the calibration standards are for checking the meter INDEPENDENT of your pool water to make sure the LED light source and photodiode are working properly. Your pool water, tap water, etc, would be unreliable for that process.
Theory 3 - are you saying that you HAD antifreeze in line or you only THINK it had a/f in the line?? If it had a/f, then yes, antifreeze would create an FC demand.
As for Hanna, the calibration standards are for checking the meter INDEPENDENT of your pool water to make sure the LED light source and photodiode are working properly. Your pool water, tap water, etc, would be unreliable for that process.
Yes, they're all wild-arsed at best, but I cannot compute the zeroes # 3 is just as suspect/doubtful as I've already had heater running BEFORE the phosgoo treatment and my FC held fine...plus I was present and made certain techs pumped antifreeze to waste, then pumped off the drainage sump, before stating normal filter operation at startup.
PASSED OCLT - FC exactly 10 this a.m., 8.5 hours after my 9 pm reading of exactly 10, which is also what I dosed to.
Ph was higher than normal for the pool at 7.7ish...but I'm right at 10 ppm so could be interference...also i'm just not gonna pour MA in dark so it will have to wait until after my meeting for another check.
CYA test was pretty fruitless in indoor light so will check it again during daylight hours...its clouding, but I can see the dot more indoors.
Will test at end of day to see if somehow lost it all again. Hope not...hope that was just some funky reaction to applications. Yesterday's loss was from about 8 a.m. To 8 p.m.
SWG instructions all want PH higher than I usually keep it (due to metals try to stay 7.4 ish) -- Matt, do you know why?
I have not yet:
1. Applied cya to get to 70 from 40
2. Added Jacks purple full startup dose (trying not to further skew phosphate tests, which if my meter is in tomorrow, I can do Saturday.)
Decided I may wait to dialing in/starting up SWG a bit until all else seems normal for a spell. Already too many variables
# 3 is just as suspect/doubtful as I've already had heater running BEFORE the phosgoo treatment and my FC held fine...plus I was present and made certain techs pumped antifreeze to waste, then pumped off the drainage sump, before stating normal filter operation at startup.PASSED OCLT - FC exactly 10 this a.m., 8.5 hours after my 9 pm reading of exactly 10, which is also what I dosed to.
Ph was higher than normal for the pool at 7.7ish...but I'm right at 10 ppm so could be interference...also i'm just not gonna pour MA in dark so it will have to wait until after my meeting for another check.
CYA test was pretty fruitless in indoor light so will check it again during daylight hours...its clouding, but I can see the dot more indoors.
Will test at end of day to see if somehow lost it all again. Hope not...hope that was just some funky reaction to applications. Yesterday's loss was from about 8 a.m. To 8 p.m.
SWG instructions all want PH higher than I usually keep it (due to metals try to stay 7.4 ish) -- Matt, do you know why?
I have not yet:
1. Applied cya to get to 70 from 40
2. Added Jacks purple full startup dose (trying not to further skew phosphate tests, which if my meter is in tomorrow, I can do Saturday.)
Decided I may wait to dialing in/starting up SWG a bit until all else seems normal for a spell. Already too many variables