Phosphates.....are they worth removing??

[JoyfulNoise]

Swamp woman,

This looks like a failure of the testing kit. I know everyone that owns an aquarium thinks their chemical tests are adequate for pools but I almost never trust result when I hear the phrase, "I used my aquarium test kit..." Now I give you A LOT more credit because I know you are skilled in this stuff but I think you're running into some kind of testing error. Doing large scale dilutions is always problematic because the errors can pile up very quickly.

Would you consider sending your water out to a professional testing lab to get it checked? They should be able to give you an accurate phosphate analysis.

Also, I know of nothing that says phosphate removers need CH. The reaction is lanthanum chloride [EDIT- I accidentally wrote phosphate instead of chloride in my original post-END EDIT] gets converted to lanthanum carbonate and then to lanthanum phosphate. Calcium is not required for the reaction to occur.

 

[PAGirl]

I can now understand why TFP doesn't recommend lowering phosphates for the average pool owner. Seems like quite a bit of work.

I am enjoying following this, even if I don't understand some of it.

 

[Swampwoman]

Would you consider sending your water out to a professional testing lab to get it checked? They should be able to give you an accurate phosphate analysis.

Indeed, Matt, that's what hubby and I have decided to do. I called my HVAC buddy to see if he had means to an accurate tester (since boiler water gets tested for phosphates) and he sends his out of town -- he's going to get me the lab info.

But I should note that BOTH the aquarium test AND the Taylor pool phosphate test -- albeit ridiculously diluted -- cross-corroborated

However, just to add some fun to the thread:

Pool Store #2: Tester kid, looked to be about 12, used his "powder" (Aquacheck kit that goes to 1,000) shook it for a bit, then read. I said don't you have to time it? He said, oh, well, I'm pretty good at just "sensing" when the test is done
He said 750.

Pool Store #3: Adult professional-seeming guy using Natural Chemistry Phosphate strips that go to 2500 ppb - shook AND timed - said "OMG it looks black in the middle, you're way over 2500." I said "You get the prize, sonny, for most likely to be accurate with what you've got"

Hubby also sez his theory is we should proceed with SWG and see what happens. Just turn if off if things get to be a PITA, treat again when water can STAY warm for reaction, and/or that way it's installed and ready when we change the liner and truck in the new water. So we're going ahead anyway...but are enormously curious as to what a lab will show re PO4

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I've used the AquaCheck powder (by Hach) and you definitely must mix for 1min to develop the color. I got good agreement between Hach and Taylor.

As for your distilled water, it's odd you got any color at all. It should be 0ppb PO4. So that points to something squirrely with your test.

 

[Leebo]

I can now understand why TFP doesn't recommend lowering phosphates for the average pool owner. Seems like quite a bit of work.

I am enjoying following this, even if I don't understand some of it.

Thats the beauty of these discussions. We all can pick up stuff from a good discussion, even if it's only learning what a pain some things can be in some cases.

 

[AUSpool]

PO4 testing is a dark art.

Indeed, I've never liked colourmetric tests. As Matt suggested there is something wrong with your PO4 readings in the distilled water.

I know this site doesn't like cheap photo meters but;
$41 HANNA HI 717 Checker HC - High Range Phosphate, Free Shipping!
http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/yhst-83212413117752/Hanna-HI713-HI717.pdf
0-30,000ppb @ +/- 4% accuracy.
I would prefer that over the Hagar.

As as the PO4 treatment unfolded I found it a bit hard to follow the time line but thought that if it was me I would have left the SeaKlear in for as long as I could running the pump with the filter in rinse mode and even vaccum once or twice on rinse mode to give it a good stir.

Sending a water sample for a professional analysis is a good idea, I don't know if it's available but trying to get hold of some standard PO4 solution would be useful, I've tipped some down the drain in the past but that won't help now.

 

[AUSpool]

I know everyone that owns an aquarium thinks their chemical tests are adequate for pools but I almost never trust result when I hear the phrase, "I used my aquarium test kit..."

There are a lot of cheap kits on the market and any reading is just a point in time and doesn't tell anything about how phosphate has influenced the past or is being recycled through a system. In SW case a simple point in time is useful. But I wouldn't be so quick to fob off the aquarium industry, it is huge, Marine Central has over 350,000 members. The investment in both moneitary and research is enormous, related industries are aquaculture, vetinary science, water treatment and almost all of the science based educational fields of study, chemistry, biology, microbiology, are directly related.

 

[Swampwoman]

AUS, thanks for that link! Awesome...I'm ordering it now...after all, in for a penny, in for a pound And in retrospect, I agree that I should have left the filter run with it until I'd hit 10 psi above clean pressure. I had assumed because there was so much floc on the bottom of the pool that much of the action was occurring THERE -- plus the tech had made it sound like a week was overkill and he'd expected the reaction to occurr within the first 24 hrs but for it to take longer to get it all out.

Joyful - whatever is wrong with our kits, if anything, they BOTH read low but visible PO4 in the distilled water. So its odd, to say the least.

H's Hagen kit is old, and is stored in the aquarium closet. My Taylor kit is newer, got it in the fall, but has been stored in the same closet until i recently created a "pool cupboard" in the studio.

The chiller for the aquarium is also on a shelf in this same closet, but is ventilated. Perhaps its possible both the old aquarium kit and the new pool kit have both been spoiled by heat...I think in the morning just for grins I'll test the RO water and the softened fill water just for fun H took the very faint/low distilled water reading to signal in fact that the reagent was good because there was differentiation between distilled alone and pool water alone.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Not trying to disparage the aquarium industry but simply pointing out that the tests needed are different. Pools and aquariums are very different bodies of water and you need to buffer and control for the chemical species you expect to be there.

For example - an aquarium is not going to have any appreciable level of free chlorine in the water whereas you will find lots of ammonia from biological processes. So, when you develop chemical tests, you don't really need to be concerned with the oxidizing power of chlorine. In a pool, there is a very significant amount of FC and so the chemical tests you use are very different.

For example, both the Hach powder reagents and the Taylor K-1106 use dechlorinating agents to get rid of FC. In the case of the K-1106, you have to add a drop of R-0007 (thiosulfate) reagent to reduce the chlorine to chloride. I'm not so sure aquarium phosphate tests use a dechlorination step.

 

[AUSpool]

^Yeh I get that. Hopefully there's no ammonia present, if there is there's something very wrong going on. It would be worth while to ask tech rep from a perspective company if a dechlorination step is needed. I thought it would be easy to add a drop of R-0007 before using an aquarium kit but don't know how or if it would affect a specific test.

AUSpool,


Borates are, at best, an algae growth inhibitor as not all algae are affected by boron and, at 50ppm, the boron concentration is well below the lethal threshold for most species. The primary purpose of borates is to add additional pH buffering to the water which has its biggest effect inside the SWG cell since it can cut the pH rise by half. This can give most cells a decent boost in efficiency as they are much less likely to develop calcium scale on the plates.

I get that and assume that it is efficiency in terms of longevity and not output although it will prevent or slow a decrease in output as a cell scales.


But I can't help to think that there is more to it though. In the same way that a pesticide can be formulated with two low dose active ingredients instead of one active ingredient with a high dose. I think that there is good reason to believe that with borates in a chlorinated pool the lethal threshold for both is decreased as the affect of either is altered in the presence of the other. The efficiency of either is increased due to the presence of the other.

Edit: ammonia is produced, it's just used or converted just as quick as its produced leaving no trace in the water column.

 

[AUSpool]

The chiller for the aquarium is also on a shelf in this same closet, but is ventilated. Perhaps its possible both the old aquarium kit and the new pool kit have both been spoiled by heat...I think in the morning just for grins I'll test the RO water and the softened fill water just for fun H took the very faint/low distilled water reading to signal in fact that the reagent was good because there was differentiation between distilled alone and pool water alone.

And that's why I dislike colourmetric tests, the distilled should be zero but I assume there maybe some colour from the reagent.

Chillers work best when outside, I had mine under the floor. A few years back I was about to board a plane in HK when I get a call from my wife, "help, water is squirting across the lounge room, what do I do?" I don't keep an aquarium anymore.

 

[Saturn94]

SW, I'm in a similar situation as you, so perhaps my experience using a SWCG may help you decide whether or not to go ahead with it.

My pool has been on a steady diet of Jack's Magic Purple Stuff for years. Also, I recently tested my tap water (we use tap water as fill for the pool) using the Taylor kit and it came up 500-1000ppb. So I'm pretty sure my pool has a very high phosphate level (I'll test it when I open in early May). I maintain about 50 ppm borates as well. I've never noticed any issue using the SWCG; the cell always looks clean. The last cell lasted 7 years, which I understand is longer than average.

Until this thread I never knew phosphates could be an issue for SWCGs. It's not mentioned in my Aqua Rite manual. I've had a couple occasions where I contacted Hayward tech support about problems and phosphates were never mentioned. **

**The first issue in 2008 turned out to be a dying cell (out of ignorance and bad pool store advice I wasn't using it properly; i.e. frequently using the "super chlorinate" setting.). The second issue in 2009 turned out to be a failure on the main board. Neither issue was related to any kind of scaling on the cell.

Supposedly Jack's Magic Purple Stuff is formulated for salt pools and is suppose to protect the cell from fouling. Also, from what I understand here maintaining 50ppm borates also helps protect the cell. Perhaps this is why I've not had issues with the SWCG. I'm sure it also helps that I maintain tight control of proper water balance.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[AUSpool]

Until this thread I never new phosphates could be an issue for SWCGs. It's not mentioned in my Aqua Rite manual. I've had a couple occasions where I contacted Hayward tech support about problems and phosphates were never mentioned.

I was going the mention something similar too. I have a local company that manufactures SWCG's and sells spare parts to the public. I was there about two weeks ago getting a new timer and asked their tech guy about phosphate scaling in their chlorinators. They've never heard of it, the term 'phosphate' is not in their manual. I don't know if they ever expect anyone to have a PO4 of 50,000ppb though.

 

[Swampwoman]

To paraphrase Monty Python, Nobody expects the 50,000ppb-phosgoo inquisition

Saturn and Aus, thanks -- that helps reinforce our notion/decision yesterday to proceed regardless. We figure there are likely plenty of folks with very high ppb from sequestrant and swamp recovery that have SWG, and that in our case, we simply know what to watch for and know what to do...which is add chlorine and have the cell tested The cell is warrantied for 3 years and there is no limiting language about phosphate levels.

We also don't exactly trust the crazy readings, even though we saw them with our own eyes. But there was, in the highly diluted samples, an end point in that the color faded.

In other news, I did vacuum to waste once more as there were traces (small but present) of accumulated floc. This am there is no more.

 

[Swampwoman]

Tested reverse osmosis water from studio with Taylor po4 kit timed exactly and only allowed 60 seconds to view color chart:
Right between 125 and 250 ppb - I'd call it 200

Tested kitchen tap water that comes from softener (same as pool)
Right between 125 and 250 ppb, again I'd call it 200

Tested undiluted pool water, which turned deep blue almost the second reagents hit the water...timed exactly and with only 1 min to compare, still deep navy at center...will try to upload pic I snapped later, phone died

Okay, super blurry as I was rushing to be with 1 min but here's the pic

 

[JoyfulNoise]

SW,

Check the warranty. The Pentair IC warranty clearly states that a failure to maintain proper water chemistry is a violation of the Terms and Agreements. The manual puts forth that PO4 levels shall not exceed 125ppb and, in the "Weekly Maintenance" section, it clearly states that water chemistry should be check by bringing a sample to a qualified water testing location, aka, pool store.

I imagine all the manufacturers use the same language so that they can pull the trigger on a voided warranty if they want to. I'm not saying they will do it automatically and they'd likely throw a customer a new cell within warranty period to make a happy customer but, give them enough grief, and they have all the fire power they need to cut you loose.

 

[Saturn94]

SW,

Check the warranty. The Pentair IC warranty clearly states that a failure to maintain proper water chemistry is a violation of the Terms and Agreements. The manual puts forth that PO4 levels shall not exceed 125ppb and, in the "Weekly Maintenance" section, it clearly states that water chemistry should be check by bringing a sample to a qualified water resting location, aka, pool store.

I imagine all the manufacturers use the same language so that they can pull the trigger on a voided warranty if they want to. I'm not saying they will do it automatically and they'd likely throw a customer a new cell within warranty period to make a happy customer but, give them enough grief, and they have all the fire power they need to cut you loose.

The Hayward manual has a section on proper water balance and there is no mention of phosphates. This is from the warranty section under exclusions;

"4. Problems resulting from failure to maintain pool water chemistry in accordance with the recommendations in the owners manual(s)."

Since it specifically states "..in accordance with the recommendations in the owners manual..." and phosphates are not mentioned in the recommended levels, I don't see how Hayward could deny a claim based on high phosphates.

Btw, SW, which SWCG did you get? I don't remember if you mentioned it in previous a previous post.

 

[Swampwoman]

I got the Aquarite 15 -- and there is no reference to po4 levels...I checked.

I also phoned Hayward and asked for written confirmation that phosphates wouldn't void warranty or if it did, at what levels and what their policy was.

She went upchain and sent an email confirming that if high phosphates were suspected, they would ask me to take the cell to a testing center...if it failed there, they would replace...if it worked there, then I would need to adjust conditions in-pool to get it to work.

That seemed like a fair method to me that's far better than just assigning an arbitrary low po4 number.

She knew when she sent the email that I "wanted it in writing" before I installed the unit -- for whatever that's worth I have filed the correspondence for future reference if needed. So I feel as well-covered as I can be.

I need to wait to bring up the cya and borates until after they change the sand in the a.m.

(To reiterate to those new to the thread, I know sand does not get old/is already old...but I can't conveniently deep clean mine as I've built a little kitchen around it and have a couch nearby and bloced off the bay door so we decided after 5 years to just change it )

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Saturn94,

Is that the latest revision of the SWG owners manual? I know Hayward has rewritten their terms and conditions recently with respect to warranty periods and self-installations.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Saturn94,

Is that the latest revision of the SWG owners manual? I know Hayward has rewritten their terms and conditions recently with respect to warranty periods and self-installations.

EDIT

Just saw SWs response. Good enough for me. Sounds like you've got yourself covered in the phosphate front in terms of warranty.

END-EDIT