Pebbletec Deteriorating

mrsfluff

Well-known member
May 7, 2015
108
jackson nj
Moved from old thread HERE

Hello! I am brand new and wasn't sure which area of the forum this was most appropriate for, given that I'm new I figured this was an okay place!

Last year we moved into a house with a pebbletec (or sheen we aren't sure) pool. We the water was about 4 years old so we got it drained and acid washed last week. After they were done we filled it up right away. Threw the stabilizer in and the chlorine in and noticed the pebbles seemed a little lose by the inlet that the water flows back into the pool from.

A week-ish later today I noticed that one of the pool steps has a bunch of pebbles falling out of the surface.

I didn't get the calcium levels up to 200ppm until about 3 days after it was full (I did it incrementally getting it up to 120 on the day after it was filled and 200 the following day)

Is the pebble falling out most likely related to the acid wash, or the calcium levels being low for a couple days?
Hi. I had this happen in 2017. How did you make out? Mine is deteriorating gradually each year. I have to sue. We have 6 years in NJ for structural damage. I gave him time to make it right but he is obviously not going to. He meant well by recommending the acid wash, but he destroyed my plaster.
 
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Ugh! Acid washing is the scourge of the pool maintenance industry. I wrote about my experience elsewhere on the forum, including, in part, in the thread that @mrsfluff's post was moved from. Just awful.

Let's get the possible bad news out of the way first. Here in CA, where I know a teeny bit about contractor law, we can hold contractors liable for construction defects for up to 10 years. (I just won a small claims case over missing attic insulation that I found in year nine, so I "lucked out.") But, there's a catch. [Paraphrasing:] That 10 years covers defects that could not reasonably be discovered by a home owner. Like attic insulation. Or defective framing hidden by sheetrock. Plumbing in walls or under the slab. Things of that nature. But if the defect can be reasonably seen, then the statute of limitations decreases dramatically, like down to two or three year (I forget). So if your siding starts peeling off, or your deck is coming apart, etc. and you wait too long, you're out of luck.

So the first thing to determine, before you go too far down the law suit trail, is if some similar limitations apply in NJ. If they do, you might not have a case because it could be argued by the defense that you've known about this, or could have, and you didn't do anything about it in time. Now even if that's the case, you might have some recourse, but I suggest you do some research about this aspect first. You're looking for terms like "construction defect," or "patent defects," or "latent defects," or maybe Statute of Repose.
 
Ugh! Acid washing is the scourge of the pool maintenance industry. I wrote about my experience elsewhere on the forum, including, in part, in the thread that @mrsfluff's post was moved from. Just awful.

Let's get the possible bad news out of the way first. Here in CA, where I know a teeny bit about contractor law, we can hold contractors liable for construction defects for up to 10 years. (I just won a small claims case over missing attic insulation that I found in year nine, so I "lucked out.") But, there's a catch. [Paraphrasing:] That 10 years covers defects that could not reasonably be discovered by a home owner. Like attic insulation. Or defective framing hidden by sheetrock. Plumbing in walls or under the slab. Things of that nature. But if the defect can be reasonably seen, then the statute of limitations decreases dramatically, like down to two or three year (I forget). So if your siding starts peeling off, or your deck is coming apart, etc. and you wait too long, you're out of luck.

So the first thing to determine, before you go too far down the law suit trail, is if some similar limitations apply in NJ. If they do, you might not have a case because it could be argued by the defense that you've known about this, or could have, and you didn't do anything about it in time. Now even if that's the case, you might have some recourse, but I suggest you do some research about this aspect first. You're looking for terms like "construction defect," or "patent defects," or "latent defects," or maybe Statute of Repose.
Here in NJ, it's 6 years. Period. No stipulations. I've been to court a few times. In this case, I waited because I prayed he would step up & do the right thing. Also, I have other litigation in the pipeline. I always give the other party a chance...but if they screw me? Watch out. Are you saying you commented on an old post of mine?
 
Are you saying you commented on an old post of mine?
No. You commented in a thread (someone else's) in which I told part of my "woeful" tale. Then I think your post from that thread was moved over here, to this new one. One of our Mods wanted your post to get more attention, so he/she moved it out of an old thread, where it might have been missed. I got pinged because I was in that old thread, and you posted in it. And then I got pinged again when Kim called me.

Here's the old thread with part of my "adventure":
 
I won one of my battles with CA Small Claims, the other I used the California Contractors State License Board. The latter was for my pool, and they helped me avoid court. Does NJ have something similar, an entity through which you can file a complaint against your contractor?

The reason I ask: Here in CA, the Board doesn't have much actual power. They don't have the authority to force a contractor to fix a problem. But they can apply pressure, and I think that's what they did in my case. But more importantly, is what they do have power over: the license. If I had had to go to court against my pool contractor, and had won a judgement, there would have still been the more important matter of collecting. That's where the Board comes in. With a judgment in hand, and the formal complaint filed, the Board can suspend the contractor's license, in essence putting him out of business.

Maybe NJ has some similar mechanism you can leverage, both before (instead of?) litigation and after... Good luck!
 
PS. If your contractor tries the ol' "It wasn't the acid wash, there was something wrong with the plaster!" routine, I have ammo for that. Let me know...
 
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This is @Dirk loading up!!!
 
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Hello. I am looking for others who've had a similar experience to mine. My pool guy acid washed my pebble plaster in 2017. It has been deteriorating ever since. I am heartbroken. I take such good care of my pool that when he suggested the acid wash to "freshen it up", I agreed to let him do it. He'd been my pool guy for a few years, was very honest, always did right by me. I know he meant well but he screwed up. He tried to blame the plaster, said it was defective. Now why on earth would you acid wash it in that case? Right. You wouldn't. Anyway, it wasn't defective. Not even remotely. I am so fussy about my pool's aesthetic that I had an underwater pool guy replace my 2 drain covers just because the plaster was a little sloppy around the edges of the original covers. It drove me nuts for years. One day, I saw the wider covers and the light bulb went off. So for this to occur is just the worst thing imaginable. I have researched this topic over the years and most often hear veteran pool guys say DON'T acid wash pebble! Some say it's ok but it must be done very methodically. What say you all?
 

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Acid washing is NEVER a good idea, full stop, period. It is used in the industry to cover up issues and rectify problems with poor workmanship. Acid washing solves no problems, creates huge problems for plaster and makes the servjce guy doing it lots of money. Acid washing weakens plaster and makes it more porous. It damages and destroys the cured surface of plaster which then emits more calcium into the water. I’m sure your service guy meant well and he is likely just following the advice that is given in the pool service trade. They are told that acid washing is ok by the plastering industry so who are they to argue? But the reality is they don’t understand the chemical and physical properties of what they are doing and so they don’t know how damaging it can be.

Sorry you’re going through this but you will likely have to replaster the pool a lot sooner than you had planned for.
 
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PS. If your contractor tries the ol' "It wasn't the acid wash, there was something wrong with the plaster!" routine, I have ammo for that. Let me know...
Boom. This is what he said. I am going to file suit against him (I am no stranger to litigation, btw). But this is not my forte. He really doesn't have a leg to stand on...or swim with...but I need to educate myself best I can. It is CLEAR that the acid wash ruined the plaster. At first, we saw a weird spot appear right under where the water from the jets blows out to. It was a very odd looking spot, discolored, blackish, greenish...just odd. I tried to take underwater pics, they came out like Crud. Pool guy tried to help figure it out with me. I never made a connection to the acid wash at that time. He had removed my mineral canister that year, so at first, I thought it was that. Also important to note that the plaster in that very small area was never troweled smoothly. You could always feel the bumpiness under your feet when you stood there (and only one person could stand there at a time if that helps the visual of size). But that bumpiness was there and it stayed exactly as it was for 12 or 13 seasons. Ok, so then I started feeling a lot of loose pebbles on the steps and the area below them. Pool guy said that was normal after an acid wash. But this was A LOT. My Polaris was picking them up. I would woosh them off the steps to the floor. Then, I started noticing discoloration as in bright aqua and white spots appearing on the shallow end floor. It is where the pebbles were falling off most, apparently. Pool guy came back to look and said it was nothing, basically. LSS, the pebbles continued to fall off over the years. And it's not evenly occurring all over. Another telltale sign. It is most prominently occurring on the flat surfaces and the shallow end where the water cascades off the steps onto the floor. Then, you can see the trail all the way to the drains. Bottom line (no pun intended)...he left it on too long, or it was too strong no matter how he claims otherwise. I believe he was not as experienced as he said he was. It breaks my heart that he did that to me because he was one of VERY few people I trusted. :(
 
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Acid washing is NEVER a good idea, full stop, period. It is used in the industry to cover up issues and rectify problems with poor workmanship. Acid washing solves no problems, creates huge problems for plaster and makes the servjce guy doing it lots of money. Acid washing weakens plaster and makes it more porous. It damages and destroys the cured surface of plaster which then emits more calcium into the water. I’m sure your service guy meant well and he is likely just following the advice that is given in the pool service trade. They are told that acid washing is ok by the plastering industry so who are they to argue? But the reality is they don’t understand the chemical and physical properties of what they are doing and so they don’t know how damaging it can be.

Sorry you’re going through this but you will likely have to replaster the pool a lot sooner than you had planned for.
Thank you for that helpful feedback! I am going to be taking him to court. I have one year left to do so. 6 years in NJ for structural. I prayed he would man up and do the right thing. He always did right by me before then. In fact, he was really good to me. But you are right. He was listening to the service trade noise.
 
Thank you for that helpful feedback! I am going to be taking him to court. I have one year left to do so. 6 years in NJ for structural. I prayed he would man up and do the right thing. He always did right by me before then. In fact, he was really good to me. But you are right. He was listening to the service trade noise.

Good luck with that. Legal battles are always a tough hill to climb. Perhaps @Dirk might share his experience with litigation. It was a long battle for what I remember reading.
 
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he left it on too long, or it was too strong no matter how he claims otherwise.
Exactly that. My guy tried to blame the plaster, too, but it doesn't matter even if the plaster was defective. There's a proper way to go about acid washing (or any application of acid to stone or plaster).

- First, a discussion should have occurred about the nature and consequences of acid washing. Without giving the consumer a chance to understand the potential risk and the inherent downside(s) of an acid wash, the provider is negligent. And that should have been in writing in addition to a discussion. Acid washing does not magically attack stains (or whatever needed treatment), and leave everything else alone. It dissolves the plaster and takes stains along with the removed plaster. So there is really no way to acid wash a pool and not end up with less pool. It's bad enough with a plaster finish, which will be left etched and feeling rough. But with a pebble finish, it's the plaster holding the pebbles, so if you remove plaster, you're going to weaken the bond of the pebbles!

- Secondly, the provider should ascertain if acid is even appropriate. Less aggressive remedies should be tried first, and acid use as a last resort. And only then with the understanding that it is a quick fix to maybe get an extra year or two out of the finish. It's maybe appropriate if the finish is already on its last legs. Never for a newish finish. Either way, it's going to shave some lifespan off the finish. Skipping that first step, IMO, is also negligent.

- If it is determined that acid is the only remedy, and the consumer has been educated about, and has agreed to the risk, then the next step is to determine the "strength" of the acid required (paraphrasing, 'cause it's not really "strength"), and duration of application needed, to achieve the result, while at the same time making sure that the process will have no unintended damaging affects (there's going to be "damage" even if an acid wash is done perfectly). That's done by simply trying various applications in a small, out-of-the-way place. That is acid application 101. Since no two pebble/plaster installs/ages/condition are the same, there can be no "blanket" formula for acid washing. It has to be determined case-by-case, and on the fly. That is probably the single most important skill to possess for someone selling acid washing. And should the plaster be defective in some way, such that it could not withstand an acid wash of any method, that too would be revealed by this sampling step. Which is why he can't now claim that it was the plaster, because, as the "professional," he was responsible for determining what acid application to use, and if it was safe to use. If he took this step and did it wrong, or if he skipped it (of course he did!), either is equally bad, and equally his fault.

- and finally, the most important step of an acid wash is neutralizing the acid at the precise moment it is finished doing it's thing, so that the process halts and the acid can cause no further action (or damage). Most guys just hose it off into the deep end and pump it out from there, perhaps without doing any neutralizing at all. They think diluting acid with water halts the process. It does not.

So if he skipped even one of those steps (and I'm gonna guess he skipped them all), he was unqualified to do the work, and/or negligent in his performance.

Now where you might have some trouble, is in how long it has taken for the damage to reveal. Will you be able to prove that only the acid wash contributed to the damage you have been seeing? My situation was different, in that incredibly severe damage showed up the same day, and then it got worse each day after that. I had definitive proof that the damage was a direct result of the process.

I'm not a plaster or acid washing expert. But I learned a lot when my pool's plaster was destroyed by an acid wash. I called in experts. I researched. And I got some support from TFP (most of this occurred before I found TFP). I took lots of pictures. I saved chunks of the pool that were removed during the repair (I had it fixed before I "won" anything from the perpetrator). So I was ready for court. But when I presented all that when filing my complaint with the CA Board, that was the end of it. They took a long time, and they first said the contractor was not going to do anything. They suggested court. But then about a month later they called and said the contractor agreed to pay for the repair. I never did get to the bottom of why.
 
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I've responded to Mrs Fluff in another thread. I'll have a mod combine them. Fortunately, I said some of what you just did, so that'll make me seem like I know what I'm talking about!! 🤪 <MOD note-The two threads are together now.

 
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No. You commented in a thread (someone else's) in which I told part of my "woeful" tale. Then I think your post from that thread was moved over here, to this new one. One of our Mods wanted your post to get more attention, so he/she moved it out of an old thread, where it might have been missed. I got pinged because I was in that old thread, and you posted in it. And then I got pinged again when Kim called me.

Here's the old thread with part of my "adventure":
Ahhh...ok. Now I see. This gets confusing. lol So you went thru the same ordeal. I'm sorry you did. It is awful. It ruins not just the aesthetic but the integrity of the pool.
 

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