New or used Hot Tub / Spa research in a post lockdown world

[Nodnarb]

I've been a TFP member for about a decade now when my family first dived in literally that long ago.

We are now looking into a Hot Tub which I was happy to see there are plenty of forum posts. With the events that have happened in the last year plus, I have some questions to ensure the research I've seen on the forums here and elsewhere is up to date and try to consolidate some things for anyone years down the road to also view.

It appears that the state of the world has taken what was a $6000 range hot tub and turned it into a $9000 one.
Similarly what used to be 30-60 days to get a hot tub has turned into 3-6 months if not longer in many cases.

In general, what is the top five things to consider when researching a tub? What are the "be weary of this" items?

What are the pros and cons of these brands?
Marquis
CalSpa
Valley "My Touch"
Catalina
Everlast/Strong Spa (Sam's Club)
Essential (Amazon)

What importance is a galvanized frame over a wooden one?

Some tubs have a thicker/sturdier base foundation that may make it more sturdier to move and level no matter what concrete/pavers are under it. How important is the base?

Many tub upgrades include a "tray" that is used to hold Chlorine and some other item to feed/clean the tub. I plan on putting in an inline SWG myself (thank you TFP for that tip), so is that upgrade really needed?

Many tubs use spray foam. That sounds like a nightmare if you needed to work under the tub. Is the spray foam just like "great stuff" you can get a Lowes that can be replaced? Are the models with the reflector panels OK? How about the models that put foam in the perimeter walls like DuraWall from Everlast/Strong Spa?

I've done some DIY things to my pool like replace the pool pump motor, installed a SWG, plumbing etc. Is there a hot tub manufacture that is more "parts are easy to find and interchange" than others? Like 5-10 years from now, will I have to scavenge for exact controller boards and panels or are their common ones that can be used?

Is Acrylic for the tub a no brainer? Resin tubs seem to be available for less expensive, so what are the big cons their outside of appearance?

What about the tub surround? Resin vs the faux wood wraps?

Anyone get a tub from big box stores? Specifically the Everlast/Strong Spa collection from Sams Club. They have hit or miss reviews. Many of the reviews complain about support but as outlined above, I can fix many things myself if need to.

Any guidance of a new tub versus a used tub. If matters I am not looking used that is older than 5 years.
It appears there are many possible deals on used tubs. Moving it looks to be a bear even if I have 5-6 helpers and do moving tricks like roll it on schedule 40 pvc pipe. Someone will have to put the tub on its side for a little no matter what to get through my pool safety fence. I helped my neighbor move his years ago. I prefer to forget that experience.

 

[ajw22]

Let's get thoughts from @RDspaguy

 

[RDspaguy]

I think that's a 15 chapter book, and I could only write 5 of those chapters anyway.
I'll try to be brief.

things to consider when researching a tub? What are the "be weary of this" items?

On a new spa your biggest concern is the dealer. Local, well established, good reputation. Run from a home show, tent sale, or box store. Never buy without a wet test.
On a used spa you are rolling the dice just like anything else used. See it full, hot, and running.

What are the pros and cons of these brands?
Marquis Decent tubs in my experience.
CalSpa OK tub, shady company that doesn't honor warranty if they can help it.
Valley "My Touch" Never heard of them.
Catalina Mediocre tub.
Everlast/Strong Spa (Sam's Club) See dealer advice (run from box store).
Essential (Amazon) Are you joking?

galvanized frame over a wooden one?

Rot or rust, take your pic. Install properly and fix any leaks promptly and either will last as long as you need.

How important is the base?

Crucial, if you mean what you put the spa on. A spa frame is mainly to hold up the skirting. Most shells are nearly self-supporting in the footwell. Suface must be flat and nearly level. Bumps, dips, and settling will destroy a spa. As will contact with dirt.

upgrades include a "tray"

Have no idea what you mean.

putting in an inline SWG myself

Will void your warranty on any new spa. In spite of the folks here who like them, I do not recommend them.

spray foam. That sounds like a nightmare if you needed to work under the tub.

It can be, depending on foam density and accessibility. Leaks are less likely, but more costly (and messy) to fix.

just like "great stuff"

No. But I rarely replace it. I might hit a few places on the pipes for support or vibration dampening, and great stuff is fine for that,, but the cost compared to the benefit of full foam is not worthwhile imo. Better to insulate the cabinet.

reflector panels OK?

With real insulation too, sure. Otherwise they are a gimmick in spa insulation. Fine for Florida perhaps, but disappointing in Missouri and just plain useless in Wyoming.

Is there a hot tub manufacture that is more "parts are easy to find and interchange" than others?

No, but a few are proprietary. This does not necessarily mean they are harder to find or more costly, but they can be.

Like 5-10 years from now, will I have to scavenge

Likely with any tub. Control mfgs, proprietary or not, make new stuff from time to time. Once the old stuff is out of production it gets harder and more costly to get.

Acrylic for the tub a no brainer?

I couldn't care less about acrylic, it's what is under the acrylic that matters. Fiberglass is nearly indestructible and almost never cracks, like a boat hull. But acrylic on fiberglass will cause spiderweb cracks and bubbles in the acrylic unless there is a third "bonding" layer between.
Resin, plastic, or pretty much anything but fiberglass or stainless steel is much less sturdy and is often backed by high density foam to support it. In most cases that will hold up just as well under normal use.

What about the tub surround?

Access panels will cut the cost of any plumbing repairs by 75%.

a new tub versus a used tub.

As a used spa flipper, I say buy used!
Seriously, I recommend used for your first spa. What I call "new toy syndrome" is very real, and leaves many new spas going unused and neglected before they are even paid off. However, used spas require cash up front and come with no guarantees.
I have learned not to believe what owners say (it worked last year, was winterized, no leaks, etc...). Most spas get sold because they rarely use it and it needs an expensive repair. So see it running and hot or don't buy it.

Moving it looks to be a bear even if I have 5-6 helpers

Moving them is a "bear" if you don't know what you are doing, and you can damage the spa and the movers. Hire a pro with the right equipment.

 

[Nodnarb]

First up thank you so much to @ajw22 to tagging @RDspaguy. And to @RDspaguy, the replies here are fantastic, nice format using the inline replies, and a good mix of clear background/experience and being blunt with candor for fun read (the 'are you kidding' for Amazon was priceless). I appreciate your replies as that takes time to help out us hot tub rookies. I have some more comments here, if you or anyone else has the time for another round, I pre thank you.

What are the pros and cons of these brands?
Marquis Decent tubs in my experience.
the rest hadn't heard of or wasn't too favorable. Any manufacture you like more than Marquis (that are known to be priced within reason)?

Never buy without a wet test.

If you meant do the wet test to ensure you like the tub feel and features, I totally get that.
If this was to imply tent dealers or used, I totally get that.
If you implied this from a new model and reputable dealer that doesn't seem realistic at least in my area.
It doesn't seem feasible for a dealer to dump a hot tub off their truck, set it up, and then box it back up to deliver it to me especially when the tub market is as hot as it is right now with months delays. Even if they did do this extra effort, reboxing it and shipping/deliver/installation, there is still a chance that it won't be perfect when it is at my house.

Moving them is a "bear" if you don't know what you are doing, and you can damage the spa and the movers. Hire a pro with the right equipment.

If you weren't five states west of me I would look you up!
If this implied finding a local dealer to have them do the install, I do not expect them to perform this service as they would want you to purchase the tub new from them.
If this implied finding a repair group that didn't sell tubs, but fix tubs and perform installation, I am unaware of anything like that in my area (or the cost and/or time would likely lose the benefit of the used tub savings)
What I did see was a thread on TFP where someone called their local fire dept whom had special equipment that made moving the tub easier. Not sure how practical that is.
I'd like to consider used, but I don't know enough and thus feel not confident with such a purchase. For example, I go to a someone house who could be an hour away, I like the tub with a wet test, then did I bring a truck with me that I may not use or have to wait an hour draining the tub to prep it. All of that is worth researching, etc if the deal is good. While I don't want to spend new prices and understood I could fall into the (quote new tub luster), the juice may not be worth the squeeze.

Is the spray foam just like "great stuff"
No. But I rarely replace it. I might hit a few places on the pipes for support or vibration dampening, and great stuff is fine for that,, but the cost compared to the benefit of full foam is not worthwhile imo. Better to insulate the cabinet.

I am accepting that as great stuff and full foam are not the same thing and I'll do my research to find out what those differences are. In general, I was looking for what reliable alternative if any there was to a tub that used full foam

I recommend used for your first spa. What I call "new toy syndrome" is very real

Well aware of this term ha ha. I have a Boflex in our workout room that is collecting dust since everyone leaves the house to experience an in person gym

 

[RDspaguy]

Any manufacture you like more than Marquis (that are known to be priced within reason)?

First off, I have not worked for a dealer in nearly a decade, so I don't see spas until they are out of warranty. Usually way out of warranty. I also don't know current pricing.
There are many good spas out there, but like everything else, you get what you pay for. The brands I like don't matter, because I am not the one buying them. Do your homework with the local dealers and choose the features you like. But remember, the dealer makes all the difference. All spas have issues, it's how they handle them that will make you love or hate your spa experience.
Take Cal, for instance. I have worked for 2 dealers in different states that both dropped Cal for warranty refusals. Both honored the warranty for their customers, but got stuck eating the expense. The customers were not unhappy, they chose a good dealer. But the dealer chose poorly, and in both cases switched to different brands.
Higher priced tubs are usually better constructed and insulated, but even a cheap tub with foil wrap can last 15 years and be loved by the owner. So find a good reputable dealer and go test some spas. Every new spa dealer I have ever know has display tubs running in the store. They may not have the exact model you are looking at, but you can still try out what they have for comfort. The good ones will fill a tub just for you to test.
Admittedly, in the covid Era they may be short on stock, but that is a temporary thing. On a $10k purchase, I would want to be sure I liked what I am buying, even if I had to wait a bit to be sure. I shopped trucks for over a year before buying my 02 f250 7.3l powerstroke diesel. But maybe I'm just weird.

do the wet test to ensure you like the tub feel and features

Exactly.

local dealer to have them do the install,

Typical spa delivery runs about $400 in most places I have been. And yes, the local spa dealer will usually do it. Sure, they would prefer you buy theirs, but they have a business to run and profit is profit. If not, they likely know someone who will.

. For example, I go to a someone house

I see all kinds. Some come with a trailer and helper and go get cash while I drain it. Others put money down to hold it and come back later, or send someone. Others pay me to haul it, but I only bring it as far as I can drive because I don't have the proper equipment and am too old for stupidity like pvc rollers and carpet drags to get it across the yard.
From a homeowner, you will have to get it out from where it's at and in to where it's going yourself. It's up to you if that's a deal breaker.

doesn't seem feasible for a dealer to dump a hot tub off their truck, set it up, and then box it back up to deliver it to me especially when the tub market is as hot as it is right now with months delays. Even if they did do this extra effort, reboxing it and shipping/deliver/installation, there is still a chance that it won't be perfect when it is at my house.

I don't even know what to say. It is fairly common practice to unwrap at the store or warehouse before delivery, but unless you are buying a floor model, your spa is paid for before it is ever built. It will be shipped to the dealer on a semi truck and stored until delivery. You will not get to test it and then decide. And nobody is repackaging anything. What any of that has to do with it being "perfect" is beyond me. New spas come with warranties, and any damage on delivery (which almost never happens) will be covered by any reputable dealer.

I'll do my research to find out what those differences are.

Simple. Great stuff (or other similar products) have several varieties, but all are harder than spa foam when cured. Also, using great stuff by the can would cost a fortune to full foam a spa. It is more like the spray foam used to insulate houses these days. Very soft, lightweight, open cell foam. I'm sure it's just a different ratio on the mix, but it is a big difference in a spa with leaks.

for what reliable alternative if any there was to a tub that used full foam

Most spas, except the very high end ones, do not use full foam. Most have an overspray on the shell and plumbing plus some sort of cabinet insulation, from reflective wraps to Styrofoam panels. The cheap ones have less.

This is an Aspen. Barely any spray foam, plastic with acrylic shell, reflective wrap for the cabinet. Cheap to buy, expensive to run in cold climates. Far more likely to leak but, since everything is clean and accessible, easy to find and fix. Good Balboa controls, Waterway pump and jets, comfortable (if shallow) seats (but it fits through doorways). Does this make it a good spa or a bad one?

Here is a Dimension One. Full foam with removable side panels. Good controls, pumps, etc. Plastic shell. Expensive, heavy tub. Since the foam supports the pipes (which are quite heavy full of water) and shell, and dampens the vibration from the pump, it is far, far less likely to leak than the Aspen, and can survive a tripped breaker in freezing temps for days without (much) damage, but...

This leak at the light fitting took literally ten times as long to find as it did to fix.
Does this make it a good spa or a bad one? I can tell you, it makes it an expensive one. That is about a thousand dollars worth of foam in there at cost.

like to consider used, but I don't know enough and thus feel not confident

That's what we're here for. Just remember rule #1... SEE IT RUNNING!

 

[A.O.]

Well I do not pretend to know as much as RD, listen to his advice...
I've had hot tubs for going on 30 years now so I do know a little anyway. My last tub got cooked by lightning last August so I just went through what you are doing now. One thing I will say is run, dont walk from a Catalina spa! lots of neat stuff on them at an incredible price.. there is a reason.
What has been said about the dealer that will stand behind thier product is almost as important as the product itself should you have problems down the road. We looked at tons of tubs and ended up with a new Cal Spa and couldn't be happier! The ONLY thing I would say bad about it is the lack of good neck jets, but I'm not a big neck jet fan anyway. Also in my estimation anyway is go bigger instead of smaller, you can thank me later on that one. We went with a 93 x 93" inch tub and love it and there are only two of us 98% of the time.
Good luck with your search and let us know where it goes.

 

[phonedave]

The tub you like is the tub you like.

However, I can tell you what I ended up getting, because I just went through this (Actually I bought the spa in June 2020 and only got it this April 2021 - it is that backed up)

I went with a Bullfrog A6, for a number of reasons. JetPacks let me pick the jets I want where I want them. The dealer has demo tubs set up and every jet pack in stock. Want to know what one feels like, just swap it in. We picked out the four that we liked. You can always go buy more if you are really that into it.

My tub has two deep seats and two shallow seats. I am able to put JetPacks where I want them. For example I am 6'4" and I have a neck blaster pack. It has two extension with jets that come out over your shoulders. When that is in the shallow seats I have to slouch in order to fit under it. When I swap it to a deep seat, it's perfect. My wife who is shorter likes the neck blaster in the shallow seats because it is closer to her shoulders and so she gets a better massage without water shooting everywhere. We can move it around as necessary.

JetPacks also reduce the amount of plumbing. There are a few tub jets, but there is just one large pipe for each jetpack location. I can also remove the jetpacks and really clean them when I do my drain and refill.

The whole frame is ABS. There is no wood or metal framing to rot out.

 

[RDspaguy]

Every bullfrog I have seen has broken clips on the Jetpacks/shell. Replacing them is a !@#$%&*!@#$%&* to say the least. I have seen huge chunks of acrylic come off with them.
Again, I don't see the new ones, so maybe they have improved on this. I would hope they have, as their reputation among techs is poor because of it.
And cleaning behind the packs frequently is a must, as it will grow all kinds of nasty back there. Trust me, I know.

 

[phonedave]

Every bullfrog I have seen has broken clips on the Jetpacks/shell. Replacing them is a !@#$%&*!@#$%&* to say the least. I have seen huge chunks of acrylic come off with them.
Again, I don't see the new ones, so maybe they have improved on this. I would hope they have, as their reputation among techs is poor because of it.
And cleaning behind the packs frequently is a must, as it will grow all kinds of nasty back there. Trust me, I know.

I had heard that when I was looking. They have redesigned the packs. The new attachment points seem pretty sturdy to me. The jet packs also now have two small holes in the back that circulate water behind the jet packs whenever the jets are on,.

 

[RDspaguy]

I had heard that when I was looking. They have redesigned the packs. The new attachment points seem pretty sturdy to me. The jet packs also now have two small holes in the back that circulate water behind the jet packs whenever the jets are on,.

Nice.

 

[BravoRomeo]

I had heard that when I was looking. They have redesigned the packs. The new attachment points seem pretty sturdy to me. The jet packs also now have two small holes in the back that circulate water behind the jet packs whenever the jets are on,.

I can second this observation. My Bullfrog A5L is going on two years and doing fine. The top clips for the JetPacks are beefy, and water does circulate in the cavities behind the packs. I still wipe the waterline out behind them, just as I do with the filter compartment and such on my weekly clean and test routine.

Before picking this tub, we did wet test at the dealer. They didn't have the small A5 model filled, but they did have the larger models, which allowed me to try the different jet packs. I sat in the empty A5 model to get a sense of space and whether my shoulders would fit under the shoulder-massager jetpack in the shallower seats of the small tub.

Prior to this tub, I started with a used Hot Springs Jetsetter and fixed it up myself. Learned a lot. You can hire hot tub movers. The good ones have a tow-behind spa dolly and know all the tricks. It's amazing how fast an experienced team can pick up and drop off... sometimes they are the same companies that move pianos. Ask around if you need to move a used tub. The money spent is cheaper than throwing out your back or damaging something.

Nothing is perfect, but sitting in the tub looking up at the stars is pretty darn close!

 

[phonedave]

I can second this observation. My Bullfrog A5L is going on two years and doing fine. The top clips for the JetPacks are beefy, and water does circulate in the cavities behind the packs. I still wipe the waterline out behind them, just as I do with the filter compartment and such on my weekly clean and test routine.

Before picking this tub, we did wet test at the dealer. They didn't have the small A5 model filled, but they did have the larger models, which allowed me to try the different jet packs. I sat in the empty A5 model to get a sense of space and whether my shoulders would fit under the shoulder-massager jetpack in the shallower seats of the small tub.

Prior to this tub, I started with a used Hot Springs Jetsetter and fixed it up myself. Learned a lot. You can hire hot tub movers. The good ones have a tow-behind spa dolly and know all the tricks. It's amazing how fast an experienced team can pick up and drop off... sometimes they are the same companies that move pianos. Ask around if you need to move a used tub. The money spent is cheaper than throwing out your back or damaging something.

Nothing is perfect, but sitting in the tub looking up at the stars is pretty darn close!

I have only had my A6 since April or so. When I tested them I thought I would prefer the deep seats (as I am 6' 4"). What I found is when it is colder out, I like the deep seats, however when it gets warmer I switch to the shallow seats since my shoulders are then out of the water and I like that better in the hot weather - I don't get overly hot. So now I swap my favorite jet pack to my favorite seat with the seasons.

 

[5tan]

I like my Bullfrog A7 so far. It's my first hot tub, got it December 2020, so 7 months in. So far so good.

It is fully sprayfoamed on 3 sides, with padded sheet insulation on the maintenance access side. ABS base and frame, sitting on a concrete slab installed by the dealer.

I like that each seat has different depth, so my friends have their favorite seats, and all jets and seats have manual dials to go from full blast to a trickle, so you can easily adjust power. The 2 pumps have 2 speeds, low and high. I also like that there are buttons on the sides so that you can reactivate each pump individually, from the seats furthest from the control panel.

The movable and changeable JetPaks means I can move my favorite jets to my favorite seat. I would recommend wet-testing each JetPak so you can pick the ones best for you. After you buy, you're stuck with the JetPaks, unless you can find someone to trade with you. Mine came with a specific set of JetPaks and I did not wet test or even go view it before buying.

Of the 5 JetPaks my A7 came with, my favorite is the Oscillator. My least favorite at first was RainShower but it grew on me. My least favorite now is Spinalassage. Maybe I'll go wet test some others seats and/or find a local Bullfrog owner to trade the Spinalassage out. Agree you should scrub behind the seats every few weeks to prevent buildup.

Bullfrog warranty seems good, 2 of my JetPaks and 1 pillow cover had defects, dealer replaced no problem.

The WiFi module and cell phone app is very useful - I change temperatures, heating cycles, and filtration cycles on the fly frequently, and you can easily program daily schedules. One function you can do on the app that you can't do on the controls is that you can dim the lights! Otherwise, when activated from the control panel, the lights run at full brightness.

The upgraded ozonator (EOS) is powerful - the longer the filtration (ozonation) runs, the faster free chlorine drops to zero. I had to dial my filtration cycle back from the default 4 hours/day to 2 hours/day or less, because it was killing my free chlorine residual. I change on the fly using the app depending on spa usage.

I highly recommend the Continuous Circulation Pump, it's very quiet and allows filtration and heating without running either of the 2 main pumps. Each of the 3 pumps has 1 bolt marked with a white label saying that after shipping, you can remove the bolt for less vibration, so I did.

No regrets on the purchase so far. Hoping all parts will last beyond their years of warranty coverage.

 

[A.O.]

I have only had my A6 since April or so. When I tested them I thought I would prefer the deep seats (as I am 6' 4"). What I found is when it is colder out, I like the deep seats, however when it gets warmer I switch to the shallow seats since my shoulders are then out of the water and I like that better in the hot weather - I don't get overly hot. So now I swap my favorite jet pack to my favorite seat with the seasons.

One of the things that enticed me to buy my Cal spa is that it has a "cool down" seat, pretty much my butt sits in about 3 inches of water and evert thing else is out of the water, it still has leg and feet jets though. Better than sitting on the edge of the tub all the time.

 

[GCS]

Not trying to hijack but is it a bad idea to start with say an inflatable/portable hot tub first and then move on to the real thing later once you know you will use it and got used to caring for it etc.

 

[A.O.]

Not trying to hijack but is it a bad idea to start with say an inflatable/portable hot tub first and then move on to the real thing later once you know you will use it and got used to caring for it etc.

Sure, I've had two inflatables.. the newer one I had had a timer set up on it, not constant on... what a waste of time... steer very clear of the timer run units!

 

[GCS]

Sure, I've had two inflatables.. the newer one I had had a timer set up on it, not constant on... what a waste of time... steer very clear of the timer run units!

Lol no worries.

Did you just keep it running all the time or started it an hour or 2 before you wanted to use it?

 

[A.O.]

Lol no worries.

Did you just keep it running all the time or started it an hour or 2 before you wanted to use it?

We use the hot tub every day so we keep it running 24/7
And with the little inflatables 2 hours is not enough time to bring it to temp

 

[GCS]

We use the hot tub every day so we keep it running 24/7
And with the little inflatables 2 hours is not enough time to bring it to temp

Understood, any harm in running it 24/7?

 

[A.O.]

Understood, any harm in running it 24/7?

I've run all my hot tubs 24/7 for thirty years no problems.

The problem with the last inflatable with the timer set up is I had to reset it every other day, and if I forgot to it wouldn't be up to temp when I wanted to use it.

They work fine other than that, make sure you read the manual before you buy one.