New fiberglass pool build in OBX- Current stage Fence and Landscape.

[TX2OBX]

Love OBX, especially Ocracoke!

Ocracoke is def a family favorite. Even before we moved out here, when visiting family up in Va beach, we would rent an RV and road trip down to make the ferry trip over to camp at the state park. Such a completely different vibe than the mainland OBX.


So interesting predicament we ran into during the county's preliminary inspection. Clearance (Clarance lol). House has so many windows and doors were running into issues on where to place equipment and abide by the 4 foot clearance rule for the heaters to any opening on the house. (also installing a generator with the same requirement so limited space all around)

Currently have two options.
Option A. Leave where it was planned on the right side of the house. But would have to close up a window and 6 foot slider. Which would give us the clearance needed. To keep some light and access we would put a 32" hinged door in its place. Benefit of this is that I hate these cheap sliders and wanted to put nicer doors in anyway. 32" hinged door is considerably cheaper even with labor of closing in window and making door smaller than a 6 foot French door. But I'm worried that will make my pool table room a little cave like. The hill there currently is going to be leveled out with a retaining wall regardless, so that will make it easier to access and get over here, and not look like complete Crud like it does now.

Option B. and I prefer this as its less work and equipment would be far closer to the pool (almost 50 feet closer) but PB doesn't recommend is to put it on the other side of the house by the patio. He thinks the noise from the pumps will be annoying. I see his point since its so close to the deck and patio. But I also feel 95% of the time the pumps will be humming along at 1000 RPM and won't be that noticeable. Neighbors pool equipment is also directly on the other side of the fence and his equipment isn't too annoying.
To help with sound though I would change the slatted wood to a full wall and throw some Rockwoll in there to help with sound. Would also give me a place to put a tv which would be cool.

But he may be right and its not a good spot. Noise issues not withstanding, It also has the potential to be in the way. Currently I have this temp fence up to corral the dogs. But it will be a 6 foot vinyl privacy fence with a gate soon, and will most likely be the main walkway to and from the back yard. We estimate a 4x15 foot platform is needed so its a lot of space to take up.

Some pics of both proposed areas. Anything I'm not considering with equipment placement? Once again ignore the wasteland that is the landscaping on this house lol.

 

[TX2OBX]

So after a week of meeting inspectors, sub contractors, etc. We worked out a solution to leave the equipment where planned and just have to close up the single window not both the window and door........ Settled great everything is a go for next week, pool expected to be delivered first week of June, until....


Today get a absolutely disheartening call from PB that rumor has it that Latham has run out of color pigments for all their pools and that right now if you want anything your choices are stark white and start white. Which is not happening. On fiberglass the white just looks unfinished to me. We already were rejected a few months ago for "ocean blue G3" and could have switched to the older G2 but we switched to "night sky g3" to keep the crystal look.

They havent announced it yet but when he went to submit an order for another customer he was rejected due to color, and was told its all colors being rejected at the moment with no idea on restock. So we went from potentially swimming by the 4th of July to now no idea.

Its just impossible to do anything in our new world it seems. IM trying to regather and am looking at doing concrete as at this point what's another 25% on the budget. But we're starting over with planning and permits and also most likely using a different builder who I'm sure will also be months if not a year or more out. So just venting. I see people on this site who are waiting years for their builds so I feel for them even more these days.

 

[TX2OBX]

So surprise text from the PB today. He said to expect the equipment to be delivered because they're starting next week, and he wants everything ready to go with the supply chain issues. Shell arrived over the weekend and he wants to get it off his lot. So its officially go time. Not even 30 min after the text a truck arrived with the pallets of equipment. The 3" PVC also arrived today.

I need to dismantle and move the boxes inside and I will itemize the equipment. I can already tell some things are off but should be easy exchanges. Got a 25k gallon salt cell instead of 40k. Filter for spa is wrong model, the ticket only shows 2 950s so were missing the spa circulation pump (Tristar 900vs). There are also 7 LED lights and im not sure why he got so many lol. But a surprise I was happy to see, an Omni logic control board when he said he was doing omni PL (also in the contract for PL). So im happy to have the latest system with more bells and whistles. Also they gave me a 2 hp blower pump instead of 1.5 hp. Will this be too powerful? The spa has 12 jets but the blower will be installed on the 8 spa jets on the separate pump. The other 4 are going to run off the circulation pump and will get air through little air caps on the spa deck.

 

[TKpoolOH]

So surprise text from the PB today. He said to expect the equipment to be delivered because they're starting next week, and he wants everything ready to go with the supply chain issues. Shell arrived over the weekend and he wants to get it off his lot. So its officially go time. Not even 30 min after the text a truck arrived with the pallets of equipment. The 3" PVC also arrived today.

I need to dismantle and move the boxes inside and I will itemize the equipment. I can already tell some things are off but should be easy exchanges. Got a 25k gallon salt cell instead of 40k. Filter for spa is wrong model, the ticket only shows 2 950s so were missing the spa circulation pump (Tristar 900vs). There are also 7 LED lights and im not sure why he got so many lol. But a surprise I was happy to see, an Omni logic control board when he said he was doing omni PL (also in the contract for PL). So im happy to have the latest system with more bells and whistles. Also they gave me a 2 hp blower pump instead of 1.5 hp. Will this be too powerful? The spa has 12 jets but the blower will be installed on the 8 spa jets on the separate pump. The other 4 are going to run off the circulation pump and will get air through little air caps on the spa deck.

That's like the best surprise ever! Good luck!

 

[kimkats]

I am jumping in to say What a great surprise!

Now grab any and all papers from everything you are keeping of the equipment. There is no telling where it will end up if you don't.

Kim

 

[TX2OBX]

Ok ive broken down the pallets and itemized everything I was sent. I also made the mistake of displacing the boss's car in the garage over mine so im in the dog house a bit lol But hopefully in a couple months when were swimming it will be forgotten. The lights are a mystery as I discovered 2 CMP lights on top of the 7 Hayward 320s lol. The CMP ones im sure go to the CMP bubblers they are "h" spec to work with omni. Guess this pool is supposed to be seen from space. Ive asked PB for more clarification on this.

I do have some questions though before going back to him again for the 6th time asking stuff lol. Ive taken pictures of all the model numbers of everything ive gotten and am a little overwhelmed. Not sure what his plumbing design is going to be to be honest. Theres tons of valves, both manual and automatic. Also asked for more clarification on this as well.

1. I have a 25k and a 15k salt cell. Im presuming 25k for the pool and 15k for the spa. Originally said 40k pool. The pool is approx 12k gallons. So im still double the capacity, should I still press for them to exchange this or leave this alone?

2. Filters I received are a 425 sqft multi swim clear for pool and 150 sqft single cartridge for spa. His reasoning for switching to the the 150 sqft one for spa was higher flow rating (120GPM vs 80GPM on the 225 sqft multi swim clear), is this still a good fit for me (more on this on question 3) or should I get something else for the spa? Also Originally spec'd a 525 sqft for pool but those are out of stock at the moment. The contract does state equipment might differ due to availability. I think 425 sqft for 12k gallons is enough, but I know bigger is better here. Between the two bodies of water though we have 575 sqft of filter power. So stick with 425 or hold out for the larger one?


3. (prob the biggest one for the water moving experts here) Apparently Latham couldn't do 2 sets of mains in the spa, not sure why, I was never given an explanation. They may have just forgotten, regardless pool arrived with only one set of MD's in the spa. So PB made the executive decision to switch to the larger pump for circulation and have the spa be driven by one pump for everything vs two. Kind of like how a typical pool would operate with shared equipment, except spa has its own equipment. It will have normal mode, operating in low RPM going through a dedicated single return in the spa, and "spa mode" were the pump ramps up to high RPM the valve moves to the 8 jets, and kicks on the blower. We also went down to 8 total jets in the spa (plus the 1 circulation return). He thinks there will be plenty of spa action this way and it saved me buying a third pump. This sort of fits in with question 2 on why we switched filters. 3" plumbing will still be used for suction and return lines. 8 jets at 15 GPM is 120 GPM. Will I be able to achieve this GPH moving water through the equipment? Or should I press harder for them to do separate jet pump? He is real uneasy about drilling into the shell but I feel like in the field we could make 4 main drains fit in the spa area. Or should I leave this alone and take the savings of one less pump and less pipe being run?

4. In relation to water moving. Will the 950VS be enough on the pool side to drive the 6 deck jets and bubblers while still heating and filtering the pool efficiently? I think he wants to have Individual runs to the bubblers, and two runs to the deck jets. One pipe to a loop for the 3 on the left and same for the 3 on the right.

I think thats got it. Here some pics of the model numbers to hopefully show what all I have here, now is the time for me to exchange anything I should have gotten. I also am thinking about a new robot cleaner, anything special I should know about with those? Thanks for the help and advise as always!

 

[kimkats]

@mas985 @JamesW any help on the equipment and water movement?

 

[BMerrill]

Don't know if its in your spec's, install a single 100 AMP breaker in an enclosure beside the HLBase. This will save many trips to the main house panel to disconnect the HLbase. Also aluminum wire can be run to this enclosure from the main panel and copper would be used to feed the HLBase; aluminum wire is way less expensive and you can only use copper conductors in the HLbase
Add the Siemens Boltshield Surge protector in the HLBase.

 

[BMerrill]

4. In relation to water moving. Will the 950VS be enough on the pool side to drive the 6 deck jets and bubblers while still heating and filtering the pool efficiently? I think he wants to have Individual runs to the bubblers, and two runs to the deck jets. One pipe to a loop for the 3 on the left and same for the 3 on the right.

The deck jets should be on their own return as well as the bubblers to give you more control. This can be automated with actuators. A pipe loop typically works fairly well. You will need the expansion card for the HLBase to add more valves. The HLBase comes with automation for 4 valves, the card adds 4 more.

 

[TX2OBX]

Don't know if its in your spec's, install a single 100 AMP breaker in an enclosure beside the HLBase. This will save many trips to the main house panel to disconnect the HLbase. Also aluminum wire can be run to this enclosure from the main panel and copper would be used to feed the HLBase; aluminum wire is way less expensive and you can only use copper conductors in the HLbase
Add the Siemens Boltshield Surge protector in the HLBase.

Ok good to know. Is this similar to an HVAC shutoff next a condenser? I had to upgrade from 400 to 600 amp service to the house just to support everything. My 2 200 amp panels were already maxed. Electritian wants to run a 100 amp panel for the pool and another 100 amp panel for my pier upgrades (50 amp shore power for boat, then boat lift, lights, fans etc). IM presuming the Omni Logic board will act as the "panel" for the pool correct? So I have the omni panel and then next to it a 100 amp shut off? Electritian is coming Thursday for a site visit so want to know what to ask him to do.

The deck jets should be on their own return as well as the bubblers to give you more control. This can be automated with actuators. A pipe loop typically works fairly well. You will need the expansion card for the HLBase to add more valves. The HLBase comes with automation for 4 valves, the card adds 4 more.

This box (attached below) was with the panel, is this what lets me control 8 valves, or is this just the base 4 and I need a second of of these?


When you say on their own return, you mean 6 separate runs? I think he is just trying to make it less complicated at the equipment pad. But id like to do it whatever way is most "right". From my chats with PB today on plumbing layout his goal was to have an actuator controlled 3 way coming off the salt cell, and individual control of the features with auto valves, so it all can be turned on or off with Omni. One side would be pool returns and the other side would be water features. Each "group" of features on a loop for even flow. So 4 paths for water to return to the pool. IDK if this will work or not. IM guessing if done this way it would take some trial and error adjusting the auto valves so they turned on to the same each time, and im sure some RPM changes to the pump depending on how many features are "calling". IDK if omni is this smart or not. I did a very rudimentary drawing using the flowchart template I use for presentations at work lol. Thanks!

 

[BMerrill]

The OmniLogic is a subpanel with spaces for 12 breakers, but no main breaker. To de-energize the panel without having to go back to the main panel every time will require an adjoining 100 amp disconnect. Like this Square D enclosure

The HLIOEXPAND Input/Output Expander Board is required if you need to control more than 4 valves (actuators).
The Expander Board adds 4 additional sensor/external inputs, 4 heater/low voltage outputs, and 4 actuator outputs.

Each group of lights you want to control separately will require a separate 300 Watt Pool Transformer and will need to be wired to a one of the high voltage relays HVR1 thru HVR4 to work properly. So, one for the pool lights, one for the Bubblers, one for the spa lights.

Attached are some of the manuals for OmniLogic, several are to large to attached. Link to the installation and operational manuals

Both bubblers on one return with the deck jets on 2 returns will work. Do the deck jets have lights aka Laminers.
For valve automation you set movement stops (open and closed positions) in the actuator. I prefer the Pentair Intellivalve Valve Actuator 521485 over the Hayward actuators. Much easier to set and to change stops but are $50-75 more.

If you are able to run a dedicated Ethernet cable from your router to the OmniLogic do so and return the HWLAN unit.

The 4 relay module kit adds 4 high voltage relays to the OmniLogic. High voltage items are light transformers, non-variable speed pumps, blowers.

 

[TX2OBX]

Next major question. Backfill.

We are on an island. There is sand literally at the surface of the lawn. No soil whatsoever. PB has said in the past he has backfilled with gravel and it eventually all washes away so now he just uses sand. Is this ok, given the circumstances of the install area? Or should I insist on gravel being used? He has told me Latham will warranty with his install. Second he is recommending we use a product called "flowcrete" under the tanning ledge, spa seats, and steps. vs trying to get sand underneath there. About a 2500 dollar up-charge to do this. But only way he thinks I wont have problems with soft spots in the future in those areas. Good idea?

Thanks to the recommendation above the electrician will be including a surge protector and 100 amp shutoff to the Omni panel. Great idea. The main panels are clear on the other side of the house from the equipment pad. He is insisting on using copper for all the runs though. Despite how expensive it has gotten, he just said "the contract price PB gave you covers me doing this run in copper, I highly recommend you keep it" Still working out the other little things, but over all moving along rather smoothly. Hope progress keeps up.

 

[Texas Splash]

My pool was placed on a sand base and backfilled with sand. I believe most installation manuals call for sand or gravel, so in their mind either is okay. In hindsight, before my TFP days, I think I would've preferred gravel for peace of mind, but either is honored for warranty purposes. It's almost inevitable that either product can settle slightly over time under steps and ledges. The shell is quite strong, and I'm sure thousands of FG pools have a slight void under those tricky areas. I don't know if the flowcrete product is worth the investment, but if it expands and/or is able to retain its consistency in those tight, hard-to-reach areas, it may give you more peace of mind.

 

[BMerrill]

Flowable fill is a type of concrete slurry typically used to fill underground pipe that are being abandon instead of pipe removal. It would be the preferred method to use under the hard to compact or difficulty backfill areas under the steps, tanning ledge, ... Question is, if the PB thinks this is needed why is it not already in the original contact.

3/8 to 1/2" washed angular stone is considered self compacting and the preferred backfill method in loam or clay type soils; not so much in beach sand, as the sand around the gravel can slowly migrate into the voids in the gravel creating voids in the surrounding sand. How do you get 7 gallons in a 5 gallon bucket? Fill it with 5 gallons of gravel and add 1 gallon of sand, still have room to add a gallon of water.

Sand is an allowable backfill material by most pool manufactures. Sand requires compaction in 6-8" lifts and must be moist as dry sand does not compact. Dumping it in around the pool and praying to settles before the concrete bond beam/coping/pool deck is poured is not acceptable practice and will lead to voids in the future.

The piping and electrical conduit should be supported by nylon strapping, like used to support HVAC ducts, to the top of the shell every 3-4' and at all bends so stress and twisting motion is not applied to the wall fittings.

If you do not have the installation instructions, engineering drawings, and warranty information from the pool manufacture, I suggest you get them now.

Go with the copper as suggested by the electrician.

When they start filling the pool, start adding liquid chlorine to maintain 3-5ppm. say 1/2 full, 1/2 gallon daily. Your pool will not turn green. So you will need the Taylor K2006C + salt or the preferred TFtestkit plus salt to test your water. If you plan on getting a robot cleaner, get it now. Works great during the build process to keep the excessive sand and debris buildup in check. This also applies to a skimmer net and brush.

 

[BMerrill]

From the plot plan, the pool is located adjacent to the 100 year floodplain boundary.
How high will the pool decking be above the Base Flood Elevation (BFE). This is called freeboard.
It is highly recommended to be a minimum of 2 feet above the BFE; the more the better. This applies to the pool equipment as well.
The BFE is arrived by complex GIS modeling, HEC-RAS calculations, and past flooding events. Still, with all of the math and science involved, floodwaters know no boundaries.

 

[TX2OBX]

From the plot plan, the pool is located adjacent to the 100 year floodplain boundary.
How high will the pool decking be above the Base Flood Elevation (BFE). This is called freeboard.
It is highly recommended to be a minimum of 2 feet above the BFE; the more the better. This applies to the pool equipment as well.
The BFE is arrived by complex GIS modeling, HEC-RAS calculations, and past flooding events. Still, with all of the math and science involved, floodwaters know no boundaries.

This is unfortunately a gamble. The equipment will be built on a platform to raise it 3 feet off the ground. With the Pool itself there isn't much we can do but trust the science and math behind it and hope for the best.

In my quote is a well point system at 5 points around the pool operating on a separate sump pump system. The ground the house is built on as well as the future pool deck is 5 feet higher than the BFE, He fully expects to hit ground water at the deep end. Pool is 6 feet deep and he wants to dig at least a foot deeper to make sure we get optimum compaction. the house itself is not in a flood zone (well its in X) and my flood insurance is about 500 bucks a year for coverage. But one of those things we wont know how bad until we dig unfortunately. I bought this house knowing one day it could flood. If that ever happens severely enough I would consider raising the place up and putting it on stilts. Which is what a lot of my neighbors have done and all the new construction around me are doing.

 

[TX2OBX]

My pool was placed on a sand base and backfilled with sand. I believe most installation manuals call for sand or gravel, so in their mind either is okay. In hindsight, before my TFP days, I think I would've preferred gravel for peace of mind, but either is honored for warranty purposes. It's almost inevitable that either product can settle slightly over time under steps and ledges. The shell is quite strong, and I'm sure thousands of FG pools have a slight void under those tricky areas. I don't know if the flowcrete product is worth the investment, but if it expands and/or is able to retain its consistency in those tight, hard-to-reach areas, it may give you more peace of mind.

Flowable fill is a type of concrete slurry typically used to fill underground pipe that are being abandon instead of pipe removal. It would be the preferred method to use under the hard to compact or difficulty backfill areas under the steps, tanning ledge, ... Question is, if the PB thinks this is needed why is it not already in the original contact.

3/8 to 1/2" washed angular stone is considered self compacting and the preferred backfill method in loam or clay type soils; not so much in beach sand, as the sand around the gravel can slowly migrate into the voids in the gravel creating voids in the surrounding sand. How do you get 7 gallons in a 5 gallon bucket? Fill it with 5 gallons of gravel and add 1 gallon of sand, still have room to add a gallon of water.

Sand is an allowable backfill material by most pool manufactures. Sand requires compaction in 6-8" lifts and must be moist as dry sand does not compact. Dumping it in around the pool and praying to settles before the concrete bond beam/coping/pool deck is poured is not acceptable practice and will lead to voids in the future.

The piping and electrical conduit should be supported by nylon strapping, like used to support HVAC ducts, to the top of the shell every 3-4' and at all bends so stress and twisting motion is not applied to the wall fittings.

If you do not have the installation instructions, engineering drawings, and warranty information from the pool manufacture, I suggest you get them now.

Go with the copper as suggested by the electrician.

When they start filling the pool, start adding liquid chlorine to maintain 3-5ppm. say 1/2 full, 1/2 gallon daily. Your pool will not turn green. So you will need the Taylor K2006C + salt or the preferred TFtestkit plus salt to test your water. If you plan on getting a robot cleaner, get it now. Works great during the build process to keep the excessive sand and debris buildup in check. This also applies to a skimmer net and brush.

Ok I will relax with the sand base. thanks to both for the info.

Good question on why flowcrete wasn't in the original bid, he said he just used it on another build with a large tanning ledge and thought it would be a good idea for me. Hes relatively new to the pool building game (within the last 5 years or so) but so far seems to be doing everything by the book. So may just be he didn't know it existed until that last build.

 

[Saturn94]

This is unfortunately a gamble. The equipment will be built on a platform to raise it 3 feet off the ground. With the Pool itself there isn't much we can do but trust the science and math behind it and hope for the best.

In my quote is a well point system at 5 points around the pool operating on a separate sump pump system. The ground the house is built on as well as the future pool deck is 5 feet higher than the BFE, He fully expects to hit ground water at the deep end. Pool is 6 feet deep and he wants to dig at least a foot deeper to make sure we get optimum compaction. the house itself is not in a flood zone (well its in X) and my flood insurance is about 500 bucks a year for coverage. But one of those things we wont know how bad until we dig unfortunately. I bought this house knowing one day it could flood. If that ever happens severely enough I would consider raising the place up and putting it on stilts. Which is what a lot of my neighbors have done and all the new construction around me are doing.

I’m shocked your flood insurance premium is that low on the OBX.

 

[BMerrill]

The flood zone, “X”, the structure is located is outside the 100 year floodplain so it’s not subject to the mandatory purchase of flood insurance for federally backed loans (Freddy Max, Fanny Mae).
Owners of property not required to purchase flood insurance can purchase a preferred risk flood loss policy at a much reduced rated based on structure value and personal property coverage not location.

 

[TX2OBX]

I’m shocked your flood insurance premium is that low on the OBX.

Im technically not required to have it. But I like the peace of mind. 500 bucks a year for 250k of coverage is worth it for me.

The flood zone, “X”, the structure is located is outside the 100 year floodplain so it’s not subject to the mandatory purchase of flood insurance for federally backed loans (Freddy Max, Fanny Mae).
Owners of property not required to purchase flood insurance can purchase a preferred risk flood loss policy at a much reduced rated based on structure value and personal property coverage not location.

Exactly. Im sure if I was required to have it, it would be far more. But even though they say it could never flood, you just never know lol. I have the Albemarle sound right behind me. Although last major nor easter that hit the sound actually dried up into the Atlantic vs flooding lol. I think the wind direction plays a major part in that.