Mid-Construction DIY - STUCK! - PLEASE HELP!!!

[mas985]

- If I'm placing 2 way valves on the 3 return lines - lets say I'm closing 2 of the 3 - won't the remaining one get TOO much pressure?

Pressure is not the issue as plumbing can handle much more pressure than the pump can produce.
However, if you start shutting off lines, you need to throttle the remaining lines to reduce flow rate so people don't get hurt with too much jet flow. However, this is very energy inefficient. Ideally, you would want a VS pump so you can reduce flow rate as you shut down lines.

- How do I work the air line? is what I've drawn in the scheme OK? 1 line and splits straight forward... also about the Hartford loop - I don't think I should make one since the pipes are above ground just to the point where the jets are..

Bubblers and venturi's are two different applications and most installs that I have seen use two blowers (see below). The bubblers need much more power than the venturis because, well they don't have venturi's which assist in the suction of air. So using one line may cause problems with too much air in the venturi's. or not enough in the bubblers. Minimum, you should have too separate lines so you can separate them if needed and control air flow separately much like the water flow.

But I see you have water lines traveling to bubblers. Bubblers are normally air only. What kind of bubbler are you using?

- Is 11KW heater pump enough for about 17-20K liters that are going to be in this pool? We like the water at 35deg most of the time

Heater sizing is pretty easy if you want to heat on demand. Get the largest heater available. The larger the BTU, the faster it will heat.

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985
Ummzzz... What do you mean by bubblers boss? I was sure that these are just the same as jets all this time... planned it to go just the same so far - water + air... I wouldn't mind it if it'll work that way
It shouldn't be too bad if the heater is lifted about 60cm above water level right?! Cause head loss ascending is regained descending right?

SO I'm going for it with this piping set sizes, 2 way valves and check valves etc...

 

[mas985]

Ummzzz... What do you mean by bubblers boss? I was sure that these are just the same as jets all this time... planned it to go just the same so far - water + air... I wouldn't mind it if it'll work that way

Maybe I misunderstood. Are those floor jets? I had assumed if they were in the floor, they were floor air bubblers. I have never seen jets in a spa floor before.

It shouldn't be too bad if the heater is lifted about 60cm above water level right?! Cause head loss ascending is regained descending right?

You may need to adjust the pressure switch given you have such a weak pump. Heaters will only turn on when pressure reaches a certain threshold. Pressure decreases with elevation.

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985

Maybe I misunderstood. Are those floor jets? I had assumed if they were in the floor, they were floor air bubblers. I have never seen jets in a spa floor before.

Yes boss this was the idea ... you can place your buttons on it for a massage and\or your shin
I'm not a pool builder just making it up as I go - thought it could be nice ...

I'm now "stuck" on arranging the equipment area, what will sit where and how it'll all work out to look nice in my v.v.v. very small pool area

Thanks for the attention man! Really not something common with pool builders as I get to learn...

 

[mas985]

Jets should only be placed in vertical surfaces and not horizontal surfaces. To me that is a potential safety hazard.

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985 just a moment there... Whats the hazard in some bubbling water coming up? Or its just a joke?

 

[mas985]

It isn't just bubbling water, the jets you posted earlier are therapy jets and the is water traveling at over 50 ft/sec. It is very fast and very hard. This is the point of massage jets, at least the ones you are looking. Not something you want going up your bum. Also, they would not be very pleasant to step on and the openings are not very smooth. The types of jets you are looking at are not meant for horizontal surfaces. This is why air bubblers are normally used on floors and seats which is why I brought that up. They are much more gentle and the surface is very smooth. Better to sit and stand on.

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985 Whaaaaa-t?!?
Holly cracker! Dude what are the 'normal' avarage jets you get in a standard hot tub?
Eg:

https://www.amazon.com/Intex-28429E-PureSpa-Portable-Inflatable/dp/B0831P1CCD/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=inflatable+jacuzzi&qid=1654911068&sr=8-7

"Air-jets" is what is mentioned there...

This is why air bubblers are normally used on floors and seats which is why I brought that up.

We'll thank GOD you did that... better late then never aeehhh

I don't want to pierce people with water... Just have some bubbles and spraying water
I just hope the setup is the same cause changing the plan again and again kinda getting 'ooollldddd' ...

I'll start reading on Google about air-jets vs massage jets...

Edit:
I think I was going for air jets all the time and now im all planned for water jets... I'll start reading about them changes to make at least some of my jets 'normal' for the kids and everybody's sake...

I was going for the hydrojets because I couldn't realize which plastics do you get anyways... Was looking for about a week for 'spa jets' and then I saw in some you tube vids that they are using these hayward air jets... So... The whole which 'plastic' does what thing is kind of confusing!

2nd edit:
Grrr more planning and changes! Wife will kill me... I said it'll take a month or so... Looks like it wont be ready at all this season this way...

They are much more gentle and the surface is very smooth. Better to sit and stand on.

So basically, the two bottom ones should become bubblers - how do you do that?!
Which 'jets' plastics do you get and what do you run into them?! Do I need a bigger blower?
Can you please please please please and one more PLEASE post an example link / image of one of those or at least an exact full name to look up in google?

(What did I get myself into?!? )

Now about them hydrojets... I need to have a way to 'slow' them down for normal sensation / kids play...

Now I'm set for 7*15GPM jets (105 total GPM).
- Removing 2 buttom hydrojet ones gets me to 5*20GPM.
- Adding 10 more jets and get a 3 per sit triangle configuration
-> When all valves are open you get a mild breezy jet of 7GPM and when you want the hydrojets you just close the valves on some of the jets leaving the basic 5 jets on 'always open' mode for safety - not having someone close all jets and blowing the pump or something else...

What do you say??? Does it make any sense?

3rd edit:
BTW how do you get a 'handle' to control the jets valves? I mean like one you can place next to the sitting area which is accessible...
Is it a ball valve situated in the jet's tube directly connected to handle above? How do you maintain such a thing?!

I guess I can jet eyeball fittings with a turn to close setup and use that to manually adjust the pressure on each of the 'extra' jets...

4th edit:
Well... my previous 'pool' was an Intex one, it came with a 4.5m3/h pump and that went via a filter+heater and then returned to the pool (straight line) and the return inlet was OK, even a bit weaker then I want to have... now, 4.5m3/H even if it lost a lot of pressure along the way the heater's max flow was 3.2m3/H... I gather I'd have around 3 maybe 2.8 m3/H coming from that return... (right?!)
so that's around 12GPM... SO the 15GPM we have right now shouldn't be that 'Hard' ... maybe I'll just add extra 2 jets instead of the bottom ones since these are going to be bubblers... that way we keep it on 15GPM and it should be OK I hope...
SO which plastics DO I get for them bubbler jets ?

5th edit:
According to the pipes table:

I can also use 4 pipes sized 1.5" for the jets, that way I can have 8 jets split to 2 on each pipe and control their pressure easier... right?

 

[mas985]

So basically, the two bottom ones should become bubblers - how do you do that?!

Just use spa air bubblers. They only have an air line connection. No water. But again, you don't want to share that air line with the venturis. It will only work well with the air lines separated.

Which 'jets' plastics do you get and what do you run into them?! Do I need a bigger blower?
Can you please please please please and one more PLEASE post an example link / image of one of those or at least an exact full name to look up in google?

You posted a link earlier to one version. These are all venturi therapy jets:

gunite venturi tee - Google Shopping

Now about them hydrojets... I need to have a way to 'slow' them down for normal sensation / kids play...

Now I'm set for 7*15GPM jets (105 total GPM).
- Removing 2 buttom hydrojet ones gets me to 5*20GPM.
- Adding 10 more jets and get a 3 per sit triangle configuration
-> When all valves are open you get a mild breezy jet of 7GPM and when you want the hydrojets you just close the valves on some of the jets leaving the basic 5 jets on 'always open' mode for safety - not having someone close all jets and blowing the pump or something else...

What do you say??? Does it make any sense?

Jets will only work properly when the flow rate is high enough. If the flow rate is too low, then the venturis stop working and you will be reliant on the blower to create bubbles but that doesn't work very well. In fact, water can back out the air lines when flow rate is too low.

3rd edit:
BTW how do you get a 'handle' to control the jets valves? I mean like one you can place next to the sitting area which is accessible...
Is it a ball valve situated in the jet's tube directly connected to handle above? How do you maintain such a thing?!

That is a completely different design. You can put air line controls near the jet but that only controls the air, not the water pressure. This design does not use air lines to the equipement pad nor a blower.

Water pressure is generally not throttled because most people want a strong jet.

I guess I can jet eyeball fittings with a turn to close setup and use that to manually adjust the pressure on each of the 'extra' jets...

Not really. If you close off the external fitting of a jets, the water will back up into the air line and possibly into the blower. This is not the way to control flow to a jet. That can only be done via a throttling valve on the water line. OR better yet, a VS pump.

4th edit:
Well... my previous 'pool' was an Intex one, it came with a 4.5m3/h pump and that went via a filter+heater and then returned to the pool (straight line) and the return inlet was OK, even a bit weaker then I want to have... now, 4.5m3/H even if it lost a lot of pressure along the way the heater's max flow was 3.2m3/H... I gather I'd have around 3 maybe 2.8 m3/H coming from that return... (right?!)

Those cheap spas are not going to have very strong jets. But in general, any in-ground spa or fiberglass stand-alone spa is going to have therapy jets (i.e. high velocity venturi jets).

I can also use 4 pipes sized 1.5" for the jets, that way I can have 8 jets split to 2 on each pipe and control their pressure easier... right?

Yes! But if you are only running a subset of the lines, you will need to throttle the remaining open lines to regulate the power.

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985 Hi, good morning mate
I think you've misunderstood me:

You posted a link earlier to one version. These are all venturi therapy jets:
gunite venturi tee - Google Shopping

I've already bought the hayward's SP1434 jets for the hydrotherapy but now I don't know what do I need to buy for the bubblers... Maybe I'll just leave it as that... some hydrotherapy jets from the bottom with a valve to control them separately and that's it... already kind of sick and tired of all this plumbing cracker...

My current plan is:

 

[mas985]

I've already bought the hayward's SP1434 jets for the hydrotherapy but now I don't know what do I need to buy for the bubblers... Maybe I'll just leave it as that... some hydrotherapy jets from the bottom with a valve to control them separately and that's it... already kind of sick and tired of all this plumbing cracker...

Bubblers are very simple. You have a single air pipe from the blower and the cap with holes in like this:

Custom Molded Products CMP Pool Bubbler, 1-1/2" MIP, White - 25503-000-000 - INYOPools.com

POOL BUBBLER WHITE

www.inyopools.com

There are other designs as well.

But as I mentioned before I would not use therapy jets for horizontal surfaces. That is really bad idea.

 

[shlomikalfa]

Bubblers are very simple. You have a single air pipe from the blower and the cap with holes in like this:

ahhh?! And what do I connect this thing to?! just my blower?! and this will be able to actually create some bubbles like this?! shouldn't there be some check valves involved or something? Or just a really strong blower??
bahh again 1am... will go to sleep, tomorrow i'll cut some rebars to get ready for cementation of this thingy... gotta have my plumbing plan right by the end of the week, want to pour some concrete next week...

thanks again man! really considerate of you to help so much!!!

 

[mas985]

The air bubblers need a separate air line (DONT USE THE VENTURI AIR LINE!!!!!) and yes you need a powerful blower to blow air into the water.

What I would do is use a blower and air line for the air bubblers. Then just use an opened pipe for the hydrotherapy venturi jets. Again, they do not need a blower when the air line is very short. The venturi's will suck in the air all by themselves. That is why they are called venturi's.

Remember when I posted this. This is the proper way to do it. But again, the venturi's don't always need a blower. In your case, I don't they will.

 

[mas985]

I forgot about this manual which is a very good resource on how to size blowers properly. It also different plumbing configurations.

https://www.jandy.com/-/media/zodiac/global/downloads/h/h0507900.pdf?rev=f5dddb965c824a6f9555f1954efb3c98?force=1

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985
Hi again, Well... by the looks of this guide above my blower (claimed 1.8-2 m3/h air flow) should be OK for some 2 small bubblers running 15tf form the blower at about 18 inches of depth...
SO basically just a direct line from the blower to these bubbler inlets and 1 check valve near the blower itself that's it? No extra check valves in the inlet or anything?

Also, another minor question - DO hydrojets mind for the air direction? my plan determines that air is going in the hydrojet body from side A->B and the water just the opposite...

About the rest of the jet piping system I've made... I really want to buy and install it, need to move on with the construction... so just to make sure
1. Suction:
- Jet pump -> Check valve -> Bushing 63->90 -> 90mm pipe all the way to 2 Main drains connected by a T 3ft away from each other.
2. Return:
- Jet pump -> Bushing 63->90 -> 90mm pipe to jet's area (13 ft away), 4 T splits -> 4 * Bushing 90->50 -> 4* 2 way valves -> Run the 50mm pipes all the way to the jets.
3. Air:
- Blower -> Bushing 32->63 -> Check valve -> 63mm pipe all the way to 'spa' (13ft) ABOVE Water level -> split to 2 -> Bushing 63->50 ->
____ line A -> 2 jets, total 130cm length.
____ line B -> 2 jets, total 160cm length + split for extra 2 more jets, pipe length 150cm.

Again, my latest plan:
(still on hydrojets bottom since I have no idea about the bubbler and that's why my questions rests on top of this post)


Can you Please, Please inspect it / approve the above?
Pretty please with sugar on top

 

[mas985]

@mas985
Hi again, Well... by the looks of this guide above my blower (claimed 1.8-2 m3/h air flow) should be OK for some 2 small bubblers running 15tf form the blower at about 18 inches of depth...
SO basically just a direct line from the blower to these bubbler inlets and 1 check valve near the blower itself that's it? No extra check valves in the inlet or anything?

A check valve right below the blower helps to protect the blower from water backing up into the blower. You have one in the drawing. This is really only a concern where the blower height is close to that of the water height. However, if it is 3' over the height of the water, there should not be an issue.

Also, another minor question - DO hydrojets mind for the air direction? my plan determines that air is going in the hydrojet body from side A->B and the water just the opposite...

Not sure what you are asking here. There is only one water inlet and only one air inlet in the venturi fitting. You cannot swap them. Water must go through the nozzle and air enters through a port outside the nozzle.

About the rest of the jet piping system I've made... I really want to buy and install it, need to move on with the construction... so just to make sure
1. Suction:
- Jet pump -> Check valve -> Bushing 63->90 -> 90mm pipe all the way to 2 Main drains connected by a T 3ft away from each other.

Why do you have a check valve on the jet pump? You shouldn't need it in that setup unless the pump is much higher than the water level.

2. Return:
- Jet pump -> Bushing 63->90 -> 90mm pipe to jet's area (13 ft away), 4 T splits -> 4 * Bushing 90->50 -> 4* 2 way valves -> Run the 50mm pipes all the way to the jets.

So you are putting the valves closer to the jets than the pump? You can, just wondering why you want those in view.

3. Air:
- Blower -> Bushing 32->63 -> Check valve -> 63mm pipe all the way to 'spa' (13ft) ABOVE Water level -> split to 2 -> Bushing 63->50 ->
____ line A -> 2 jets, total 130cm length.
____ line B -> 2 jets, total 160cm length + split for extra 2 more jets, pipe length 150cm.

Again, you cannot use the same blower for both the bubblers AND the venturi's. They MUST be different blowers AND completely different air lines sharing NOTHING. OR as I mentioned before, multiple times, you can skip the blower for the venturi's and just use an open air line.

I don't think you reading my previous comments because you keep making the same mistakes over and over.

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985

Not sure what you are asking here. There is only one water inlet and only one air inlet in the venturi fitting.

What I mean is:
Air goes left to right into the jet body and water right to left... I don't think there is logically anything wrong with it but thought I'd ask...

Why do you have a check valve on the jet pump?

I read on the pump manual it makes the pumps life easier or something and it's symmetrical

So you are putting the valves closer to the jets than the pump? You can, just wondering why you want those in view.

If you had a look at my pit it's not really spacious... The entire pool walls will be elevated 20cm above the surroundings so I'll build a deck over the pipes and valves and when I'll want to adjust things I'll have access to it.

I don't think you reading my previous comments because you keep making the same mistakes over and over.

@mas985 Sir! I'm reading everything you write about 78 times, waiting the entire day for any response, refreshing the page 10000 times!!! You are the only help I'm getting and I'm really really really depending on you!!! I AM 100% following whatever you write!

About that air thing - Like I said, the plan posted is for venturi jets also on the 2 bottom inlets, I don't know how to make the bubblers work and it took me ages to realize them venturi jets... SO I figured hey lets just go on with the venturi jets plan and if it seems painful / not pleasant I'll shut it off / adjust it from the valve and that's it...

I know you are against the jets shooting upwards but I already have this LX400 blower which is 1.80-2m3\h and I don't think it's strong powerful enough for running proper bubblers there and I'm afraid of connecting the blower to the bubblers and then run the whole thing and have no bubbles coming out Also, I can't upgrade more equipment like I did with the pump since my electricity isn't wired properly... SO no go for a 1.5-2HP blower... on top of all that - won't a big blower make even more noise?! it's a residential area... I can't make too much noise... Lots and lots and lots of things I'm trying to mingle in here....

Once again, 10000000000 respect for your help and more!!!
Thanks for your response and thanks for helping!

About the venturi open air pipe... this is how it should be placed:


EDIT:
--> And lets say if I do place an open air pipe for venturi AND use the blower:

for bubblers... I will have to get a bigger one, right? And I have looked at what you've sent as for bubbler "plastic" and couldn't figure out which one to get... are these bubblers also getting air+water in?
Cause what you've sent me:

Custom Molded Products CMP Pool Bubbler, 1-1/2" MIP, White - 25503-000-000 - INYOPools.com

POOL BUBBLER WHITE

www.inyopools.com

What is that?! Do I just connect the pipe directly to it and that's it?! just air in? The blower will be strong enough to push the water and blow bubbles in there like that?! Cause All I could find on amazon was combined inlets with water and air... looked for like 3 hours, got a headache and decided I'll just use the jets + valve to adjust...

 

[mas985]

Air goes left to right into the jet body and water right to left... I don't think there is logically anything wrong with it but thought I'd ask...

No it doesn't matter. The only important thing is to connect the correct ports to the correct lines.

I read on the pump manual it makes the pumps life easier or something and it's symmetrical

Check valves on the suction side of the pump are only necessary if the pump is over 1m above the water. Otherwise, they cause additional head loss and flow reduction. So if you don't absolutely need it, avoid it.

If you had a look at my pit it's not really spacious... The entire pool walls will be elevated 20cm above the surroundings so I'll build a deck over the pipes

You should always have access to the pump and plumbing for maintenance so don't put something over it where it is difficult to reach.

About that air thing - Like I said, the plan posted is for venturi jets also on the 2 bottom inlets, I don't know how to make the bubblers work and it took me ages to realize them venturi jets... SO I figured hey lets just go on with the venturi jets plan and if it seems painful / not pleasant I'll shut it off / adjust it from the valve and that's it...

I still think that is really bad idea. No pool builders ever do that for very good reason. Even stepping on one of those jets would be painful even when off. They are just not conducive to horizontal surfaces.

I know you are against the jets shooting upwards but I already have this LX400 blower which is 1.80-2m3\h and I don't think it's strong powerful enough for running proper bubblers there and I'm afraid of connecting the blower to the bubblers and then run the whole thing and have no bubbles coming out Also, I can't upgrade more equipment like I did with the pump since my electricity isn't wired properly... SO no go for a 1.5-2HP blower... on top of all that - won't a big blower make even more noise?! it's a residential area... I can't make too much noise... Lots and lots and lots of things I'm trying to mingle in here....

Then I would just skip the floor fixtures and move those two jets to the walls. There really is no benefit to floor location over a wall location. I just don't see why you want them in the floor. They are deeper so won't work as well as wall jets. Or put them on the vertical surface below the seat so they hit your legs. There are many other locations that are far better than the floor.

--> And lets say if I do place an open air pipe for venturi AND use the blower:

It is either or not both. Otherwise the blower would just blow air out the open pipe. If you wanted the open pipe for the venturi's and the blower for the bubbler, that would work.

 

[mas985]

What is that?! Do I just connect the pipe directly to it and that's it?! just air in? The blower will be strong enough to push the water and blow bubbles in there like that?! Cause All I could find on amazon was combined inlets with water and air... looked for like 3 hours, got a headache and decided I'll just use the jets + valve to adjust...

I went over this in a previous post. An air bubbler is air ONLY. You connect the blower to the air pipe and the air pipe comes out of the bottom of the spool and you put that fitting on top flush with the bottom of the spool. It is very simple. Only air comes out of it. Personally, not a big fan of bubblers but some people like them.


This is how I would place the jets:

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985

So if you don't absolutely need it, avoid it.

Will remove the check valve from the suction pipe!

There really is no benefit to floor location over a wall location. I just don't see why you want them in the floor.

Well...
1. It could massage my Rear.... but the idea was to use this side as a laying area and then these jets from the bottom would massage your thighs and shins... like a whole body massage
2. Wouldn't it make some nice Fountain-ISH feel/look for the corner there ? Big-OLL nice bubbles popping up from the bottom of the seat there...
When you sit in a hot-tub... those pre-made ones ... there are holes all over the place....
I just checked again and it seems like you are 100% right ... There are no jets up your Rear in these ... HuH?! and their thigh jets and on bent legs...

It is either or not both. Otherwise the blower would just blow air out the open pipe.

I understood about the Venturi and will use an open pipe, and if that won't work well enough I'll add a bubbler cause I've already got one

Will my bubbler be enough for just 2 bubblers there? it'll be 4 meters away...

Thanks for the replies like always man!!!
Really Really great appreciation! ThankS!!!