Mid-Construction DIY - STUCK! - PLEASE HELP!!!

[mas985]

2. Wouldn't it make some nice Fountain-ISH feel/look for the corner there ? Big-OLL nice bubbles popping up from the bottom of the seat there...
When you sit in a hot-tub... those pre-made ones ... there are holes all over the place....
I just checked again and it seems like you are 100% right ... There are no jets up your Rear in these ... HuH?! and their thigh jets and on bent legs...

Fiberglass stand alone spas are a separate entity and nearly impossible to replicate in concrete. If that is what you want, you should buy because you will never be able to replicate one in concrete. At least not very easily.

The bubbles from the spa walls will look just the same as if it was in the floor. You wont be able to tell the difference. Have you seen a normal gunite spa in operation. There are bubble everywhere.

Will my bubbler be enough for just 2 bubblers there? it'll be 4 meters

The Jandy manual I posted gives you instructions on how to determine blower size for air bubblers.

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985
Hi, Thanks for the late response!
After a short (really short) discussion with my wife - where she told me: "Are you a moron?! The dude is a pro and says don't do it - Do Not Do It"... I realize that I probably just shouldn't do it

I've changed the plan and will just create a 2nd level of jets and that's it... like 1 on upper back and one for lower back going in series of 2 for the plumbing.
Air line will replicate the jet's water line and instead of having the manifold like i've got on the water lines I'll have open pipes for suction.

About the open air line:
- How high should the open air pipe be above water level? The higher the better? Or it's just have to be over the water level and that's it?
- How do you prevent water from back flowing in case someone blocks the water jets with his hand or something?
- Open air line of 50mm is enough or should I use 63mm + bushing for every jet? (Cause they are 50mm) does it worth the effort to make all these adjustments -> 63->50->63->50 etc... ?

That's it ordering pipes today can't keep going this way doing the plumbing for 3 weeks now... I'm getting OLD already!
My latest plan:


Thanks for saving my SPool man!

 

[mas985]

About the open air line:
- How high should the open air pipe be above water level? The higher the better? Or it's just have to be over the water level and that's it?

You want at least a foot above water level. However, if you think you might want a blower, I would go 3'/1m.

- How do you prevent water from back flowing in case someone blocks the water jets with his hand or something?

The only thing you can do is to put a check valve on the air line. This is often done when the blower is close to the same height of the water level. It helps to protect the blower. But that can always be added later if there is a problem. With tall air pipes, it shouldn't be an issue.

- Open air line of 50mm is enough or should I use 63mm + bushing for every jet? (Cause they are 50mm) does it worth the effort to make all these adjustments -> 63->50->63->50 etc... ?

With 8 jets, I would go even larger. I have a 6 jets and 2.5" air line. You don't want that to restrict the air at all. Rule of thumb is to size it the same as the water lines but that may be overkill in this case.

But why are you still showing the blower line separate from the open air pipe? The runs are pretty short no? You could just have one line and just not put the blower on it to start. Are you putting in a Hartford loop? I don't see it in the drawing.

One thing I did notice is that you do not have any skimmers. An IG spa does not either however, it usually does have a spillover into the pool which acts as a skimmer. Without skimmer, how do you plan on keeping the surface clean? By hand?

Also, you are adding jet. So what jets did you end up with, 10 GPM or 15 GPM and can the current pump handle that? What is the make/model of your latest choice?

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985

You want at least a foot above water level. However, if you think you might want a blower, I would go 3'/1m.

I'm going to make the OPEN air pipe right next to the air line manifold which splits into 4 50mm lines that goes directly to the jets. Manifold is a 63mm pipe connected by 4 T at water-level.
I'll make it initially 50cm high, if it won't work i'll extend it to 2.5 meters high (roof height) and add a blower on top with/without a check valve for protection.

Are you putting in a Hartford loop? I don't see it in the drawing.

I thought that If the OPEN air pipe is right next to where the pipes go underwater there is no point in making a hartford loop... right? it's 2.7m from open air to the furthest jet body (including 50cm above water level for pipe).

One thing I did notice is that you do not have any skimmers.

I do have a skimmer... 17L situated in front of the whole 'spa' area...


These are the jets:


I've got a list on my plan for all equipment: (Pump included)
Link to pump: SILEN | The best swimming pool pump


Latest plan:


My hole:


As you can see it's not the typical place you'd see an under-ground pool with a 'spa' area
Also, there will be a 10cm wall between the "machines area" and the pool... pretty tight but will fit there... I KNOW THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF NO-NOs but this is what I've got and there will be a SPool there!

some more images -
couldn't make the pipes order today... made some metal works for the concrete...


Thanks again man...

 

[mas985]

The proximity of the air line to the jets, I don't think there will be any issue. No reason in my mind not to just have one air line where every you plan to put the blower if there is one. It is all so close anyway. I might put the blower/air line near the filter so all the equipment is close to the breaker box.

But what is the flow rate of the jets?

Also, is the S2 the same as the S200 for the pump head curves? They seem to have two different part#s.

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985
Hi again,
Man with all the attention you're giving I'm feeling LUCKY!!!!! Thanks!

Also, is the S2 the same as the S200 for the pump head curves? They seem to have two different part#s.

S2 is the series 200 is the model and 31M I think it's the head max... label says: S2 200 31M (I've got it right next to me).

I might put the blower/air line near the filter so all the equipment is close to the breaker box.

Well... having where I've placed in the "picture" will be actually over the top of this blue shader so it'll be invisible and will be further away from the neighbors window so maybe it's for the best up there... also it's closer, only about 2.5 meters away this way...
- Have you looked at it's stats? will be enough for some bubbles?

But what is the flow rate of the jets?

What I've posted is just the bodies right?! I still have to fit in a jet nozzle? I haven't picked up nozzles yet... I don't know how this whole construct goes so I'm waiting on my order to arrive and have a personal look at it...
If you can suggest what is it that I should order from amazon I'll be as happy as donkey on a strike!

Thanks again for the help man!!!

 

[mas985]

S2 is the series 200 is the model and 31M I think it's the head max... label says: S2 200 31M (I've got it right next to me).

That pump might be too small for all 8 jets so some may need to be shut off. This may or may not work because when the jets are shut off, water gets sucked up into the air lines reducing bubbles in other jet lines. This could be a problem. Most spas are built such that all jets operate at the same time without adjustments other than air. Adding the water line valves complicates matters. So I cannot guarantee what you are trying to do will work.

Well... having where I've placed in the "picture" will be actually over the top of this blue shader so it'll be invisible and will be further away from the neighbors window so maybe it's for the best up there... also it's closer, only about 2.5 meters away this way...
- Have you looked at it's stats? will be enough for some bubbles?

As I said before, you should not need a blower. But as I mentioned above, if you have to shut off some of the jet water lines, then you may need the blower to clear the lines. But never having seen that setup before, I can't say if it will work or not.

What I've posted is just the bodies right?! I still have to fit in a jet nozzle? I haven't picked up nozzles yet... I don't know how this whole construct goes so I'm waiting on my order to arrive and have a personal look at it...

The jet bodies usually come with the nozzle. The nozzle is shown in the picture. In the center there is a small hole, that is the nozzle. Do you have a link to what you purchased?

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985

The jet bodies usually come with the nozzle. The nozzle is shown in the picture. In the center there is a small hole, that is the nozzle. Do you have a link to what you purchased?

Amazon.com: Mumusuki 1.5in Outdoor Swimming Pool SP-1434 Massage Pool Spa Massage Nozzle Accessory : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Amazon.com: Mumusuki 1.5in Outdoor Swimming Pool SP-1434 Massage Pool Spa Massage Nozzle Accessory : Patio, Lawn & Garden

www.amazon.com

they don't really say what's the flow rate but on Hayward I've seen that their nozzles are all rated 10GPM
eg.

Amazon.com: Hayward SP1434PAKB Jetair III Nozzle Assembly Replacement : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Amazon.com: Hayward SP1434PAKB Jetair III Nozzle Assembly Replacement : Patio, Lawn & Garden

www.amazon.com

Besides, I can always change the nozzles to 10GPM right? like... just purchase these ones I've posted and switch...

This may or may not work because when the jets are shut off, water gets sucked up into the air lines reducing bubbles in other jet lines.

Perhaps I can add valves also on the air pipes right after the 'manifold' just the same as the water pipes and then if needed I can just shut-off the whole section both air and water...

That pump might be too small for all 8 jets

Well, I haven't used it yet and it actually got here broken so I have to return it anyways... do you think I should upgrade to the 300 one? Cause that one is 12amp electricity which is kinda harsh on my system and would really like to avoid that if possible... Having all this equipment and not being able to use it cause it flips the fuses all the time is kinda SAD

Say, about the concrete walls I'm doing... do you think its necessary to have a double layer of rebars or just the one layer is enough? it's 8mm rebar nets that I've put... and the entire "Hole" is situated inside a huge rock we had to dig into...

THANKS!

 

[mas985]

@mas985

Amazon.com: Mumusuki 1.5in Outdoor Swimming Pool SP-1434 Massage Pool Spa Massage Nozzle Accessory : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Amazon.com: Mumusuki 1.5in Outdoor Swimming Pool SP-1434 Massage Pool Spa Massage Nozzle Accessory : Patio, Lawn & Garden

www.amazon.com

they don't really say what's the flow rate but on Hayward I've seen that their nozzles are all rated 10GPM

They are not all 10 GPM. The more common ones are 15 GPM with a 3/8" nozzle orifice. Do you already have one?

Besides, I can always change the nozzles to 10GPM right? like... just purchase these ones I've posted and switch...

Only if they are available. They are not interchangeable so it may be difficult find some. Also, reducing the size of a jets increases the exit velocity but also reduces flow rate so the strength of the jet may go down so that is not always a viable solution. If you want 8 jets operating a full power, you will need a bigger pump.

Perhaps I can add valves also on the air pipes right after the 'manifold' just the same as the water pipes and then if needed I can just shut-off the whole section both air and water...

That might be possible. You need to isolate both lines from the other jets.

Well, I haven't used it yet and it actually got here broken so I have to return it anyways... do you think I should upgrade to the 300 one? Cause that one is 12amp electricity which is kinda harsh on my system and would really like to avoid that if possible... Having all this equipment and not being able to use it cause it flips the fuses all the time is kinda SAD

One thing you have to understand is that pump ratings are not actuals. 12 amps is the maximum. Also, do you have 50hz or 60hz power, that can also make a difference. The published ratings may be for one or other and you have to adjust.

But IF those are 3/8" jets, then you need 15 GPM each or 120 GPM for all 8. Your current pump won't deliver that.

Say, about the concrete walls I'm doing... do you think its necessary to have a double layer of rebars or just the one layer is enough? it's 8mm rebar nets that I've put... and the entire "Hole" is situated inside a huge rock we had to dig into...

Depends on the local ground movement. You might need some local expertise to determine that.

 

[shlomikalfa]

But IF those are 3/8" jets, then you need 15 GPM each or 120 GPM for all 8. Your current pump won't deliver that.

Don't worry about the pump man...
I don't need 8 jets at full power!
Most likely 8 jets at half power (but making bubbles) will be enough for most of the time... and if I can play with the valves and get 4-6 at full power from time to time that will be a nice trick

Also, do you have 50hz or 60hz power

We run 220/50 in Israel... and I have to add a heater and still have the entire house to run so... my ACs alone sometimes crush the system...

They are not interchangeable

The hayward manual says they have 4 types of nozzles which are interchangeable but no GPM is indicated nowhere on site:
ie:

Return Fittings | White Goods | In Ground Pool White Goods - Hayward Pool Products

Pulse-Flo Nozzle Assembly - Rotating

www.hayward-pool.com

On amazon it says 10 GPM...

THanKS man!

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985
Hi,
I'm ready for cement pouring, planning on doing it tomorrow, just the floors first since it's my first time and I'm scared like crazy things might go wrong
attached some images... Anything special I should be aware of?



Thanks MAN!!!!

 

[JamesR]

I’m not Mas85, but in the picture with the floor drains, are those threaded couplings with orings? I didn’t think you could bury that type of connection in concrete? Maybe I’m wrong.

 

[mas985]

Those look like unions which should not be buried or embedded in concrete. All connections should be PVC glued.

Also, one of the MD pair's has a vent line and the other does not. Reason? Also, the MDs are not very deep so a vent line may not work well for that application. Is that for entrapment reasons? As long as the MD's are 3' apart and you plan on using VGBA compliant covers, you really should not need a vent line.

Also, the entire plumbing system should be installed before any concrete and pressure tested.

 

[shlomikalfa]

@JamesR
Hi,
What are "threaded couplings with orings"? The ones that are directly connected to the main drains?
yes they are threaded on one end and the other is glued...

@mas985
- The main drains of Hayward are threaded... how do you go from that to glued then? They said at the store it should be like that and that they don't have anything else...
- There is no "Vent" on the main drains, it's a connection to the skimmer that will be placed on top over at the corner...
- Like I wrote on my "plan" I'm using hayward's main drains:

https://www.amazon.com/Hayward-WG1049AVPAK2-2-Inch-Suction-Fiberglass/dp/B003SR2ER4?pd_rd_w=tkuQk&content-id=amzn1.sym.bc622850-a717-4d94-96c3-7cc183488298&pf_rd_p=bc622850-a717-4d94-96c3-7cc183488298&pf_rd_r=3GHEZ9S7ZTGFP35QN9ZW&pd_rd_wg=oLSi1&pd_rd_r=6cd6ee8c-5685-407a-9deb-af1e35d1b979&pd_rd_i=B003SR2ER4&psc=1&ref_=pd_bap_d_rp_4_t

I get it, I should have used a nipple to connect that and not a record... How bad is it? it's already glued in there... Yes, I've put glue on it since it also seemed fragile and not sealed enough to me...
It's on the suction side so maybe pressure is not that much of an issue?! Should I disassemble it all and put them nipples instead?

- Since I'm doing this in parts I'm doing the floor part now and will complete the "walls" part of the plumbing afterwards...

Thanks for the response guys!

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985
Cemented!

Lets hope non of my plumbing went wrong and that the rest of the job will continue this way with no blow-outs

 

[mas985]

I get it, I should have used a nipple to connect that and not a record... How bad is it? it's already glued in there... Yes, I've put glue on it since it also seemed fragile and not sealed enough to me...
It's on the suction side so maybe pressure is not that much of an issue?! Should I disassemble it all and put them nipples instead?

Too late now but unions can and do leak. Hopefully they are fully embedded in the concrete.

But I would not hook up the skimmer to the MD lines like you have. If the MD's have more flow than the skimmer, there is no way to correct that since you cannot reduce the flow of the MD. Each should have a separate run to the pump with it's own valve for full control.

Alternatively a MD is plumbed through the skimmer and then the skimmer is plumbed to the pump (opposite of yours). In this case, the skimmer has some control over the flow from the MDs with a valve in the skimmer. Something like this:



In reality, you really don't need a main drain for the circulation pump. The skimmer is sufficient. The MD will just make skimming worse.

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985
Well... I thought it was kind of clear in my drawings and that if I'll connect the MD to the skimmer and then to pump it will reduce the total suction capacity... but I guess that is not an issue for the main circulation of such a small spool
- SO, pointing out an issue / a mistake is GREAT!!! and really thank you for that!!!! but now what >?
I Can:
1. Cut the line to the skimmer and just seal it, make a new line from the skimmer that does a "U" turn directly outside and then have a "T" connection with the MD and connect that to the pump.

2. Cut the MDs line, add a 90 degree turn which connects to the skimmer's line and connect that to skimmer and then add a "U" turn outside to the pump.

3. Not use the MDs all together. Cut and seal their line.


Which one do you think will be best suited? I do like the option of having MDs to clean my pool from top and bottom...

Again man, thanks for all the help!!! I love you!
Soooooooo happy my concrete pouring went OK... first time pouring concrete, it was soooo scary!!!

 

[mas985]

Well... I thought it was kind of clear in my drawings and that if I'll connect the MD to the skimmer and then to pump it will reduce the total suction capacity... but I guess that is not an issue for the main circulation of such a small spool
- SO, pointing out an issue / a mistake is GREAT!!! and really thank you for that!!!! but now what >?

When I first looked at your drawing, it looked like the MD was plumbed into the skimmer and then to the pump, like the picture I posted above. Going from the MD to the skimmer to the pump will reduce capacity over individual runs but it is better than what you have now.

I Can:
1. Cut the line to the skimmer and just seal it, make a new line from the skimmer that does a "U" turn directly outside and then have a "T" connection with the MD and connect that to the pump.

2. Cut the MDs line, add a 90 degree turn which connects to the skimmer's line and connect that to skimmer and then add a "U" turn outside to the pump.

3. Not use the MDs all together. Cut and seal their line.

My preference would be #1. It gives you the most control but the individual suction lines should have their own 2-way valves for adjustments. But your circulation pump is very small and flow rates will be very small so you will probably end up using just the skimmer. MDs do not clean anything really. If you dump a pile of dirt on the MD, you will see that it only cleans about 2" around the MD and that is is. Especially at low flow rates. Many builders in the US are now building pools without them.

 

[shlomikalfa]

@mas985
Hi,
Thanks for the input my holy guide!

Perhaps another option is to just connect all MDs to the jets pump and reduce the suction danger of the main drains... the skimmer is enough for my circulation pump...
what do you say?

 

[mas985]

That would work!