IntelliCenter and MasterTemp 400 Communication

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I just went through the old and new connection diagrams and have determined that you really don't need the new wiring harness. The only difference is the location of 2 wires on the Fenwal controller. They moved the 240V connection and a 24V connection. Simple to move the existing wires to the new locations.

Alright, I'm offering myself up as the guinea pig for this. I just bought the board and ignition module on ebay. Significantly less costly than the ones I found from online suppliers. Estimated delivery is by Aug 30th. I'll update this once I get them installed.

--Jeff
 
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Ok, the parts came in last night. I was able to get them installed and quickly check through the Intellicenter settings. I will play with it more this weekend.

You only need 2 parts in order to do this upgrade.
- Pentair 461105, which is the control board with the new 6 button membrane pad, and the jumper wire to connect the board to the ICM (Fenwal) controller.
- Pentair 476223 (US) or 476224 (AUS) which is the new ICM and all wiring connectors needed to swap out the new ICM with the 'legacy' one. These are the same part. I happened to receive the AUS one, but it works with no issues. The ICM # itself is 476221. Not sure if that PN comes with the wiring connectors or not. Instructions here for swapping it out. https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/parts-sheets/heaters/pentair_heater_icm_module_replacement _kit.pdf/subassets/page1.pdf You can see that this kit provides all of the connectors and tells you how to swap the wires. All of the existing wires are marked, so there is no concern of not getting them in the right location.

Not sure why the Pentair guy that MyAZPool talked to thought you had to swap the wiring harness. As I mentioned previously, there are only 2 wires that change locations, and the ICM kit covers that with the new connectors.

I didn't get any photos, since the instruction manuals for the ICM and the conversion kit have those covered. That and I was in a little bit of a hurry to get things swapped.

Took about 1.5 hours to do the swap, and that was with me slow rolling it. If you had all of your stuff ready, I can easily see getting this done in less than 1 hr.

The most difficult part was swapping out the membrane pad. I used one of those microwaveable corn bag heating pad things to heat up the membrane pad and soften/loosen the adhesive. I was trying to be gentle with it. Why I really have no idea, for some reason I hate destroying things. Although I still thing I probably broke it. I'm sure I could have just ripped it off of there in less time, and realistically, I will not need to salvage that membrane pad for any reason.

Once connected up, I removed my existing gas heater from the settings and installed the MasterTemp heater. So far I have not been able to find any areas in the Intellicenter that provides any additional information. The newest Intellicenter manual, and the newest MasterTemp manual, do not really go into any details about information that is communicated between the two.

MyAZPool said:
1. Temperature control is via RS-485.
2. The heater bypass valve is controlled when heat is called for (no need for macros in this respect).
3. Improved heater delay functionality.
4. Pump speed is also tied to heater control as well.
Click to expand...
MyAZPool noted previously some things that may be updated with this. I do want to comment on this.

1. RS485 temp control.
- I'm not sure what this gains you. Nor am I even sure how to tell that this control is functioning, with the current setup.
2. Heater bypass valve controlled with no macros
- This function is already in the Intellicenter. You simply have to assign the valve to the imbedded 'HEATER' circuit in the Intellicenter. That is how I had mine set up. And how it is currently running with the new boards. I have not yet moved the bypass valve connection to the heater control board. I will do that this weekend and see what, if anything really changes. I think the only real benefit of this heater bypass valve connection on the heater control board would be that you would not need to add a valve expansion module, if you were already maxxed out with 4 valves.
3. Improved heater delay.
- I'm not sure I would notice this. I'm not even really sure what this is.
4. Pump speed tied to heater control
- Just like the heater bypass valve, this function is already there. You have to use the imbedded 'HEATER' circuit in the Intellicenter. Mine is set up like this for when I heat my pool. I kick the speed up but not as high as I have it when in spa mode.

So, while I have not given this the complete shakedown yet, I am not sure, other than error information provided to the Intellicenter, that there would be much benefit to this swap. A valve expansion card is much less costly than this swap, if you need to add a heater bypass valve.

Let me know if you have any questions, or if there is anything in particular you would like me to check out.

Will post more once I play with it a little more this weekend.

--Jeff

EDIT - Corrected ICM part numbers. Pentair literature has them backwards.
 
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Turbo1Ton said:
1. RS485 temp control.
- I'm not sure what this gains you. Nor am I even sure how to tell that this control is functioning, with the current setup.
Click to expand...
I figured this out tonight. I had originally left the fireman's switch connection made up. Tonight I removed that and realized that all comms were done through 485.

The instructions in the heater manual are not clear as to if you need the fireman's switch or not, with the 485 connection. So I can confirm that you do not. In case anyone else reading this is confused.

Tomorrow I will play with the heater bypass.

--Jeff
 
Ok. I have been trying to get the heater bypass set up to see how that works. The instructions for the bypass kit (https://www.pentair.com/content/dam...alve_replacement _kit.pdf/subassets/page1.pdf) do not have any instruction on how to do this when you are connected via RS485. All the local buttons on the heater are disabled. Neither the Intellicenter (IC) installation manual nor the user's guide have any information about the heater bypass valve, that I have been able to find.

So I disconnected the RS485 wires to see if I could possibly configure it locally. This appears to be the only way to get into the heater menu. Ignorant. Should have a menu in the IC for this. Note that the heater must be ON in order to access the menu; the instructions are not clear on that. I turned it on and cranked down the set points so it would not try to fire. Accessed the menu, selected the bypass valve, enabled it.

Reconnected the RS485 wires, and called for heat. Success! The bypass valve activates and goes to the bypass closed position. I turned the heater off, by deselecting the spa, and the heater is stuck in cool down mode. So the bypass valve will not return to the bypass open position. It is supposed to be that once the call for heat is removed, the bypass valve should remain open for 1 minute (according to the above instructions) and then it should close. The cool down setting in the IC was set to 5 minutes. So I waited for about 12-15 minutes, and still nothing. Heater keeps flashing Cool Down, and the valve will not open the bypass. I can cycle the power to the heater, and everything resets, and the same thing happens again. I matched the cool down setting in IC to 1 min, to see if that worked, it did not.

So at the moment, I am at a standstill on the on-board heater bypass valve until I can get in touch with Pentair support. Wondering if anyone out there who has a later model heater with this functionality, and has it running, has seen this?

I will comment on freeze protection for the bypass valve, since I am in a climate where I don't close, but we get freezing temps. The Pentair instructions for this bypass kit indicate to set the valve stop positions so that when the bypass is open, you are still about 30% of valve stroke open to the heater. I think this is the way they intend to prevent freezing if using the on-board bypass valve control, should you be in an area where you do not winterize, but you get freezing temps. If using the IC to control the bypass valve, there is no way to configure the bypass valve in the IC with freeze protection, without using macros. If you use the embedded heater circuit in IC to drive the bypass valve, then there is no way to select freeze protection for this. This is a little bit disappointing to me. I am going to have to manually stroke the valve for flow through the heater, and turn the actuator off for the winter to prevent freezing in the heater, because my whole point of having the bypass is to reduce the pressure drop so that I can run much lower speeds and get the flow switch for my SWCG to prove. I could set it for the 70/30 position in the winter, but my whole gripe is that I have to manually interact with my automation system. I automated it for a reason. I just can't believe they don't have people at Pentair that can think of this stuff. 🤦‍♂️

--Jeff
 
Just wanted to update this. I've called Pentair to discuss the issue with the heater hanging in cooldown mode. I was at work and not in front of the equipment so I couldn't attempt what they were asking until later, so I still need to call them back. They asked me to verify if the heater was hanging in cooldown mode when disconnected from the RS485 network. That was the one thing that I didn't check when I was going through everything, darnit! I disconnected the 485 connection (has to be disconnected at the heater board, otherwise the heater still thinks it is connected to the network) and the heater works perfectly with the bypass valve, when just using the keypad on the heater. So it appears that something on the 485 network is not telling the heater to stop the cool down mode.

I'll update again as soon as I get more info.

--Jeff
 
rstrouse said:
If you install njsPC and dashPanel to a Raspberry Pi you should be able to see the communication with the heater. I would be interested in seeing the MasterTemp --> IntelliCenter conversation.
Click to expand...

I need to get on this. It's been on my to do list since last fall. Would be happy to share whatever info I can.

Let me get the stuff ordered and I'll work on this in the next coming weeks. Temps are starting to cool down a bit so it isn't miserable doing stuff outside.

--Jeff
 
So, @Turbo1Ton, are you able to change the MasterTemp temperature from the Intellicenter/Intellicenter app? That is the one functionality I would like to have.

Also, with my current setup and the dumb connection between Intellicenter and MasterTemp I don't seem to be able to control which circuit groups will activate the heater. The heater gets on every time the pump is active.
 
mzuniga said:
are you able to change the MasterTemp temperature from the Intellicenter/Intellicenter app?
Click to expand...

You can change the temp the same as you can with the 'dumb' connection. The heater must be turned 'on' and you can adjust the temp up and down. You can see in the screen shot below, the temp adjustment setting on the Spa.

1632742159534.png



The only difference, and it is one that you don't really see, is that the temp adjustment is made to the heater control board as well. So instead of having the MasterTemp adjusted to a maximum temp, say 104F, and you adjust the temperature of the controller up and down to heat within that maximum, it actually adjusts the temp on the MasterTemp control board.

Does that answer your question?

--Jeff
 
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Turbo1Ton said:
So instead of having the MasterTemp adjusted to a maximum temp, say 104F, and you adjust the temperature of the controller up and down to heat within that maximum, it actually adjusts the temp on the MasterTemp control board.
Click to expand...
Are you sure about that? What we have found with UltraTemp is that the RS485 commands simply act like a fireman's switch. The setpoint from IntelliCenter is never shared with the heater and it simply sends an RS485 message telling the heater to heat, cool, or turn off. However, it does ignore any setpoints on the heater and when the messages are being sent from IntelliCenter it disables the control panel much like IntelliFlo pumps. The only thing that is shared with IntelliCenter from the heater are error codes and confirmation that the requested mode was successful.

I would have expected the same sort of functionality with MasterTemp given the fact that the setpoints in IntelliCenter are driven by the water temp sensor attached to it and not the one that is in the heater manifold. The discrepancy between these sensors would make for a heater that would likely heat above or below the displayed setpoint. We will be looking forward to seeing the message output from the heater.

mzuniga said:
The heater gets on every time the pump is active.
Click to expand...
Turn off manual heat for the spa body.

See the manual heat section from the manual.
 

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rstrouse said:
Are you sure about that? What we have found with UltraTemp is that the RS485 commands simply act like a fireman's switch. The setpoint from IntelliCenter is never shared with the heater and it simply sends an RS485 message telling the heater to heat, cool, or turn off. However, it does ignore any setpoints on the heater and when the messages are being sent from IntelliCenter it disables the control panel much like IntelliFlo pumps. The only thing that is shared with IntelliCenter from the heater are error codes and confirmation that the requested mode was successful.

I would have expected the same sort of functionality with MasterTemp given the fact that the setpoints in IntelliCenter are driven by the water temp sensor attached to it and not the one that is in the heater manifold. The discrepancy between these sensors would make for a heater that would likely heat above or below the displayed setpoint. We will be looking forward to seeing the message output from the heater.


Turn off manual heat for the spa body.

See the manual heat section from the manual.
Click to expand...
Thanks @rstrouse. My issue is actually with the Pool side. I have dual equipments with a heater exclusive for the pool side.
 
rstrouse said:
So you have an IntelliCenter i10D? Or are you running an i10PS? If you have a PS it will get in the way. If you have a D assign the heater body to only the pool. This is a setting when you define the heater.
Click to expand...
Yes i10D. There is no manual heat option for the pool side, only the spa side.
 
rstrouse said:
Are you sure about that? What we have found with UltraTemp is that the RS485 commands simply act like a fireman's switch. The setpoint from IntelliCenter is never shared with the heater and it simply sends an RS485 message telling the heater to heat, cool, or turn off. However, it does ignore any setpoints on the heater and when the messages are being sent from IntelliCenter it disables the control panel much like IntelliFlo pumps. The only thing that is shared with IntelliCenter from the heater are error codes and confirmation that the requested mode was successful.

I would have expected the same sort of functionality with MasterTemp given the fact that the setpoints in IntelliCenter are driven by the water temp sensor attached to it and not the one that is in the heater manifold. The discrepancy between these sensors would make for a heater that would likely heat above or below the displayed setpoint. We will be looking forward to seeing the message output from the heater.
Click to expand...
100%. I just went and verified because I thought maybe I had not seen something correctly. When I adjust my setpoint on the IC, the setpoint on the MasterTemp display changes as well. The control panel is disabled, except for displaying the body temp and the setpoint. If I press a button it indicates RS485 control. So the RS485 tells the heater which body is selected and what the setpoint should be. See pics.

Heater display spa.JPG

Heater display pool.JPG

The temperature that the heater displays as the current temp I believe is the heater water temp sensor. The only reason I suspect this is that when I converted everything over and was playing around with the bypass valve, there were several times in there when I noticed the heater displayed the water temp as 120. There is in fact a discrepancy for what the IC displays and what the heater displays. Mine happens to be 1 degree off.

Was too hot this past weekend to get in the attic and pull cable for the 485 comms from the panel back to my network panel. I'm hoping I can get that done early this coming Saturday morning before the temps get up there.

--Jeff
 
Turbo1Ton said:
100%. I just went and verified because I thought maybe I had not seen something correctly. When I adjust my setpoint on the IC, the setpoint on the MasterTemp display changes as well. The control panel is disabled, except for displaying the body temp and the setpoint. If I press a button it indicates RS485 control. So the RS485 tells the heater which body is selected and what the setpoint should be. See pics.

View attachment 374559

View attachment 374560

The temperature that the heater displays as the current temp I believe is the heater water temp sensor. The only reason I suspect this is that when I converted everything over and was playing around with the bypass valve, there were several times in there when I noticed the heater displayed the water temp as 120. There is in fact a discrepancy for what the IC displays and what the heater displays. Mine happens to be 1 degree off.

Was too hot this past weekend to get in the attic and pull cable for the 485 comms from the panel back to my network panel. I'm hoping I can get that done early this coming Saturday morning before the temps get up there.

--Jeff
Click to expand...
Now, a question. I have found no way to schedule different temperatures throughout the day with my dumb MasterTemp (i.e. cooler in the morning, hotter in the evening). I see no way to create either feature circuits or groups circuits that will allow me to specify a certain temperature for the heater. Is that function available through RS485? Or maybe somebody has found a way to do what I want with the dumb connection. Thanks!
 
I wouldn't call the fireman's switch dumb considering the processor and computing resources on the IntelliCenter board are many times more capable than the controller in the heater. From what I see, the only thing you gain is that the heater can report errors back to IntelliCenter with the RS485 connected. Who cares whether the display on the heater changes when you change the setpoint on IntelliCenter. Now with that said you should be able to create a schedule for either body circuit (1 or 6) that has the desired heat mode and temperature setpoint. That is if your firmware is current. If you are not running 1.047 you will get all kinds of unpredictable results.
 
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rstrouse said:
I wouldn't call the fireman's switch dumb considering the processor and computing resources on the IntelliCenter board are many times more capable than the controller in the heater. From what I see, the only thing you gain is that the heater can report errors back to IntelliCenter with the RS485 connected. Who cares whether the display on the heater changes when you change the setpoint on IntelliCenter. Now with that said you should be able to create a schedule for either body circuit (1 or 6) that has the desired heat mode and temperature setpoint. That is if your firmware is current. If you are not running 1.047 you will get all kinds of unpredictable results.
Click to expand...
I'm on 1.047. How do i do that? The heater does not appear as a feature and there seem not to be a way to tell the heater to get to certain temperature other than manually from the landing page of the web interface. Thanks for the help!
 

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