In Floor Cleaning System - How Should it Work?

[LynnOnTheWeb]

My pool has an IFCS that runs anytime the pump that it is on is running. It’s the same pump as the main drain for the pool. Is this how it is supposed to work or should we be able to turn it off separately?

For reference, here is a photo of my pump system. The cleaner and main drain run to the pump on the far right.

 

[1poolman1]

Yes, that is how they work. Some of those systems had a small lever atop the distribution valve that would pause the cleaning system.

 

[LynnOnTheWeb]

Like a valve to shut off the flow of water to it? In simple terms, are they running if water is going to the pop up heads?

 

[1poolman1]

Like a valve to shut off the flow of water to it? In simple terms, are they running if water is going to the pop up heads?

Based on what can be seen from the picture, if that pump runs the IFCS runs. You DO NOT want a valve to stop the flow with the motor running. You would either "dead head" that circuit, a dangerous condition, or burn out the motor seal and eventually ruin the motor bearings. Just turn the pump off if you don't want it to run. The "pause" lever, if you have one, would just stop the internal mechanism of the distribution valve from running, it did not stop flow. What ever circuit was being used would continue "popped up" and allowing water through it.

 

[LynnOnTheWeb]

Based on what can be seen from the picture, if that pump runs the IFCS runs. You DO NOT want a valve to stop the flow with the motor running. You would either "dead head" that circuit, a dangerous condition, or burn out the motor seal and eventually ruin the motor bearings. Just turn the pump off if you don't want it to run. The "pause" lever, if you have one, would just stop the internal mechanism of the distribution valve from running, it did not stop flow. What ever circuit was being used would continue "popped up" and allowing water through it.

Got it. Thanks for that info.

The main drain pump is necessary in order to run the water through the filtration system though, right? And most folks are running that most of the day (or at least we were told to do that when the pool was handed over). That means the IFCS runs all day.

Also, that pump runs when the spa is on I’m pretty sure. We get pelted by cold water from the cleaners when the spa is on.

Are we running our pumps wrong or is this common?

 

[1poolman1]

Got it. Thanks for that info.

The main drain pump is necessary in order to run the water through the filtration system though, right? And most folks are running that most of the day (or at least we were told to do that when the pool was handed over). That means the IFCS runs all day.

Also, that pump runs when the spa is on I’m pretty sure. We get pelted by cold water from the cleaners when the spa is on.

Are we running our pumps wrong or is this common?

Pump on far right does not appear to run water through the filter, which is not the best for an IFCS valve. There could easily be two pipes under the main-drain cover. One for the IFCS alone and one connected to the filtration pump.
The IFCS pump should not be running with the spa in operation, and could be on a separate timed circuit in your automation that can be re-programmed.
To begin with, that means that cold water is continually being added to the spa when in use, the spa would continue to overflow in use, and take much longer to get to temperature, should it even be able to.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Lynn,

It appears to me that you have two pumps. The pump on the right appears to be for just the IFCS...

The other pump appears to be for everything else.

Obviously, there is no way for us to tell where all the pipes go, or if they are interconnected out of sight.

What happens when you turn off the pump on the right???

I am not sure what your questions is.. There is no reason you can't run just your pool pump, even if is not connected to the main drain. From the pool's point of view, you don't even need a main drain. Running the skimmer into the IFCS does not make sense to me, but then, I'm not really a IFCS expert.

Does you pool have wall returns, or does the return water just come from your in floor jets???

What is it that you want to do???

What automation system do you have???

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Lynn,

Can you show us a couple more pics of the plumbing on the left side of the Filter looking down... And showing what is hidden by the wall on the left in your original pic???

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[LynnOnTheWeb]

What I want: for the IFCS to not run all the time. The power of the IFCS makes a ton of noise and the cold water pelts us when we use the spa.
What I was told by the PB: it has to run if the pump is on and the pump(s) are supposed to run all day.

I have a Jandy/iAqualink system. I'm attaching a photo of what is running while I was shooting the video. The IFCS runs full-time with these settings.

I was getting some electrical wires re-run today for a different issue and my electrician was explaining how the electric comes into the relays, etc. It was very helpful. I can confirm there is no wire/relay connected to the cleaning button/controller on the Jandy.

Here is a video of my equipment:

Here is a video of my pool from above (water comes in side jets):

Here is a diagram of the flow of pipes:

 

[proavia]

Like a valve to shut off the flow of water to it? In simple terms, are they running if water is going to the pop up heads?

No - like a lever that pauses the water valve on one zone.
If you don't have separate returns that are selectable separate from the IFCS, any return flow must run thru the IFCS.

You can run a low RPM thru the IFCS, but the popup heads won't fully pop up.

Your system has two pumps.
One dedicated to the IFCS - which draws water from the pool main drain and 'cleaner' and returns water thru the 'Doctopus' (water valve) that distributes water to each zone and the popup heads in that zone.
Once dedicated to filtering the pool/spa water and returning the water to the pool/spa.

The IFCS pump does not need to be running unless you need the IFCS to 'clean' the pool.

Please explain what the 'cleaner' suction line on the IFCS pump is for.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Lynn,

Thanks for the pics, videos, and diagram.. Perfect!!

What a beautiful pool!!!

I see no reason for you to constantly run the IFCS...

Let me see if I can get one of our Jandy guys to talk with you about programming.

My guess is that your IFCS and your pool are scheduled to run together. Your two pumps are both VS speed pumps, so they would be controlled by a small cable and not by a relay. You should be able to schedule your IFCS to run at a time that does not interfere with your pool use.

Can you post your run schedules???

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[LynnOnTheWeb]

Thanks!

@proavia i have no idea why there is a cleaner suction line. I don’t understand how the IFCS is setup

@Jimrahbe photos below of the run schedule with speeds.

 

[LynnOnTheWeb]

@proavia if the pump isn’t running, isn’t the water more stagnant and doesn’t the water need to run through the filtration system at least several hours a day?

Or, does the other pump do that sufficiently?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Lynn,

Here is how I assume your system works..

If you just run the Filter pump, it will suck water from the pool and run that water through the filter, your UV system, your Chlorinator and then send the water back to your pool.

When you run your IFCS / Vanishing edge pump, it will suck water from your overflow catch basin and send that water through your IFCS heads and back to the pool. The extra water in the catch basin will increase the water level in your pool causing it to spillover back into the catch basin.

I suspect that your pool does not have any skimmers, because it has a vanishing edge, which acts like a skimmer,

What this means is that if you never run the IFCS, anything that falls into your pool, and floats, will never have a way out. Maybe that is why your PB said you have to constantly run the IFCS/Vanishing edge pump.

It appears that your filter pump runs from 8 am until 5 pm at 3000 RPM.. and your IFCS/Vanishing edge pump runs 24/7 at 1750 RPM.

3000 RPM seems pretty fast to me... are you sure the surface bubbles that you show in your pool video are not from your main pump???

You should be able to set the IFCS/Vanishing edge pump to run a lot less than 24/7. I am not a Jandy guy, but it appears you just highlight the vanishing edge schedule and hit Edit, and change it to the time you want it to run, then hit Save..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Lynn,

Let's see if @HermanTX has any programming suggestions..

Maybe he can also tell us how the Disabled IFCS button works.. I can't see how it could turn off the IFCS, as there are no valves???

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[LynnOnTheWeb]

@Jimrahbe a lot of that actually makes sense. This is pretty exciting. It’s been confusing me since we finished the pool almost a year ago.

You are correct, no skimmers. And while we’re on that topic, it’s time for a redesign of that system in the industry. Keeping an overflow basin clean is nearly impossible!

If you’re also right about the IFCS being connected to the vanishing edge, I’m guessing I was told I need to run 24/7 to keep the plaster in the other side of the wall wet, especially in the summer (Hello, Central Texas!). Maybe I can lower the speed enough to keep kicking water going over the edge while not having enough pressure to push up the cleaning heads? We’re up on a cliff and don’t have trees around the pool so there is rarely anything that falls into the pool. It only happens when there’s a huge storm and that’s easy enough to manage as needed.

Re: the surface bubbles. I’m positive they’re from the IFCS. We watch it move around the pool when the heads pop up. The PB had it set even higher and I’ve turned the RPMs down to get it even so we weren’t pushing water out of the pool onto the coping. Based on this convo I’ll drop it more.

Thank you so much for all your thoughts. It gives me a better understanding of what might be happening and something to go tweak.

 

[HermanTX]

Thanks for the invite @Jimrahbe
@LynnOnTheWeb The first thing that caught my attention was that Pump 1 - which is your main filtration pump (Pump 1) has the speed for Infloor System (based on your pump speed screen shot of Pump 1) but IFCS is actually run by Pump 2. That also tells me why IFCS is disabled on the Menu Screen. This doesn't seem right and I can look up some more info on this.

Also your Vanishing Edge and Cleaner suction is on the same pump - so there must be a set of dedicated jets (as return to the pool) for the Vanishing Edge. With all of those return lines are there any that look like 2" inch jets in the pool. They would larger ID then a regular pool return jet to allow the return to force water over the vanishing edge.

Also, there has to be either a skimmer or a main drain in the catch basin. Could that be the pipe marked Main Drain on pump 2?

Furthermore, on suction of Pump 2 (on right side), there is a manual 3 way valve between the cleaner suction and the main drain (my assumption that is in the basin).

I have seen (been in) several pools with a vanishing edge, it is normally set up with a pump that sucks from the basin and has 2 or 3 large outlets into the pool to push water over the edge. It is an independent plumbing system. When that pump is not on, then there is no overflow to the vanishing edge.

I say that because on the filtration pump (pump 1) there is a spa main drain and "pool" suction - but if there are no skimmers then that must be the main drain of the pool.

Can you define how many main drain covers are in the pool? They may be round or a long rectangular drain. There could be a suction drain on the wall as well. So look on bottom and on pool sides.
FYI - if there are 2 round drain covers, then they are likely connected and considered one suction set. If it is a long rectangular drain then that would be 1 drain.
Also how many drains are in the basin?

 

[Jimrahbe]

to keep the plaster in the other side of the wall wet,

Lynn,

You should never have pool plaster that is not inside the pool. Your wall should be tile... Sigh!!!

Based on this convo I’ll drop it more.

Sounds good to me, but if the heads never pop all the way up, then the IFCS itself will not be cleaning your pool.


The valve on the right pump, either selects "cleaner" or "main drain" and is a puzzle for me...

I assume that if you set it so that the main drain pipe is shut off, the IFCS will run without an overflow over the edge.. And.. if you set it so that valve is set to shut off the "Cleaner" pipe that the main drain pipe will cause the overflow over the edge. Do you know if this correct or not?

I can't understand why they have a valve there if it does not accomplish some task..

You might want to adjust that valve and see what happens.. I'd try all three positions..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[LynnOnTheWeb]

@Jimrahbe @HermanTX

Here is the additional info, but I want to share an observation. When I turn off the "Filter Pump" in my shortcuts (iAqualink) everything turns off, including the overflow and IFCS. I assume it's a shortcut and I've looked through the iAqualink interface and can't find what that toggle switch directly controls. Where should I be looking?

Re: Specific points

The first thing that caught my attention was that Pump 1 - which is your main filtration pump (Pump 1) has the speed for Infloor System (based on your pump speed screen shot of Pump 1) but IFCS is actually run by Pump 2. That also tells me why IFCS is disabled on the Menu Screen. This doesn't seem right and I can look up some more info on this.

Pump speeds might be deceiving. I've changed them to try to get the IFCS to stop getting water all over the coping. I'm pretty good about taking photos before I mess with things too much and found the attached speeds from March. Maybe they make more sense?

Also your Vanishing Edge and Cleaner suction is on the same pump - so there must be a set of dedicated jets (as return to the pool) for the Vanishing Edge. With all of those return lines are there any that look like 2" inch jets in the pool. They would larger ID then a regular pool return jet to allow the return to force water over the vanishing edge.

The only "jets" I have in the pool are the pop-ups for the cleaning system and 4 side jets with directional clear hoods on them. The 4 with clear plastic hoods are on the deep near the IFCS drain and I think the guy told me they are part of the cleaning system and push debris down the walls to the drain at the bottom. There are TONS of pop-ups on all of our flat (steppable or sitable surfaces). Steps have 2 each, there are 2 each on the benches in the spa, there are some through-out on the other various ledges.

In the spa we have what I'd consider normal jets. We have 6 "jets" in the spa. 3 with 7 big holes and 3 with 2 big holes that rotate.

Can you define how many main drain covers are in the pool? They may be round or a long rectangular drain. There could be a suction drain on the wall as well. So look on bottom and on pool sides.
FYI - if there are 2 round drain covers, then they are likely connected and considered one suction set. If it is a long rectangular drain then that would be 1 drain.
Also how many drains are in the basin?

The main pool has one large circle drain looking thing at the deep end. I'm pretty sure this is the IFCS drain. The basin has 3 things: a drain that is in the center of the basin on the wall, and 2 circle drain looking things at the bottom (so likely connected and considered a set?) on the side closest to the overflow and auto-filler. The spa has 1 drain on the wall, one on the floor.

You should never have pool plaster that is not inside the pool. Your wall should be tile... Sigh!!!

Don't get me started on this PB unless you want a really long story. Let's just say there's a reason I'm taking this all on myself instead of calling him.

I assume that if you set it so that the main drain pipe is shut off, the IFCS will run without an overflow over the edge.. And.. if you set it so that valve is set to shut off the "Cleaner" pipe that the main drain pipe will cause the overflow over the edge. Do you know if this correct or not?

I assumed this as well. I can't tell that the valve does anything. These are my observations. Turning off cleaner there is no perceptible difference in the IFCS or the overflow. If I switch off drain, the water levels in the filter basket attached to the pump seems to drop a little, but it also raises and lowers some. It never emptys, just drops a couple of inches and never fully fills. Turning the inlet off empties the basket completely. I don't know if it turns off the IFCS or vanishing edge because I didn't want to risk running the pump dry.

I think it's worth noting here when I turn off "Vanishing Edge" in my iAqualink the vanishing edge stays on, the cleaners stay on, and the pump attached to them stays on.

I think I got all of the questions. Thanks again for helping me with this and let me know if you need more info or videos.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Lynn,

Maybe @HermanTX can help us understand how your main pool pump is linked to your IFCS / Vanishing edge pump. On the surface, these should not be linked together.. I can't see any reason why you should not be able to run them independently. They must be linked together by programming..

Thanks,

Jim R.