Here We Go Again....Pool Build in Magnolia

[jimim]

how come ur cya is bouncing like 40 to 65 in a day? when was it added. usually takes 7 days to get an accurate reading.

as you keep adding acid onto of acid for those first few weeks your TA will come down and down slowly. then it will stabilize. i used to keep mine in the 80 range but it was making my ph go up even quicker than it still is so now i keep it at 60 and it has held there for weeks now.

jim

 

[Goob]

TA is the last thing we work on as you keep everything else happy around it. The CH is a little low. Go to Pebble Tec to see what they want for the levels. there.

I can't remember if you tested and posted your fill water numbers. If not do so and keep a copy with your test kit for future reference.

The color is really starting to pop out now! SWEET! Love the combo of the plaster and decking!

Kim

TA last. Got it.

I do have my fill numbers. Not what I expected but something to use when needed.

how come ur cya is bouncing like 40 to 65 in a day? when was it added. usually takes 7 days to get an accurate reading.

as you keep adding acid onto of acid for those first few weeks your TA will come down and down slowly. then it will stabilize. i used to keep mine in the 80 range but it was making my ph go up even quicker than it still is so now i keep it at 60 and it has held there for weeks now.

jim

Not sure why CYA popped up so quickly. I assume the start up guy added in the morning, I didn't check the water until about 8 that evening.



I forgot to add that we had about 1" of rain early in the morning which probably helped with bringing up the pH a little. Also, my cascading waterfall is going as the start up guy has the pump running continuously until he returns tomorrow or Tuesday.

My numbers for the evening aren't much different than earlier in the day, not that I expect much different. The pH seems to be coming up pretty quickly so I went ahead and added some muriatic acid for overnight to see what I get in the morning's test.

FC 9.0
CC 0
pH 8.0
CYA 60
CH 100
TA 310

I added enough muriatic acid to bring the pH back to 7.5 based on Pool Math.

Speaking of start up guy, I found a bottle of chemicals that he added although I would think there was more. Jack's Magic- The Magenta Stuff. Funny, I can't find any chemical breakdown of it as it is proprietary. Oh well, it's marketed for start ups but won't be seeing my pool much longer.

 

[kimkats]

Jack's is standard startup stuff so all is good.

Between the rain, waterfall, new plaster your PH is going to get high fast. I am glad you are keeping an eye on it and pushing it down as needed.

Kim

 

[jimim]

Kim. Can they drop it down to 7.2 instead or is the plaster too new still to do that? Just to buy them some time.



i would also double check that cya so u aren’t putting in too much chlorine cause it’s new plaster. I know with my quartz I couldn’t go above 3 so with a cya of 60 already it gets dicey for staying in a safe range. Or am I off here?

 

[kimkats]

Jim talk to him about how to figure out the CSI. I am short on time so cannot walk him through it. THANKS!

 

[mknauss]

CSI - see Pool Math - Calcite Saturation Index - requires pH, TA, CH, CYA, Temp, uses Borate, Salt
Less than -0.6 is suggestive of problems for plaster, tile, stone, and pebble pools.
Greater than 0.6 is suggestive of problems for all pools.

Enter all your test results (including your current pool water Temperature) into Pool Math. CSI is calculated for you. As you have a SWCG, it is best to keep it near 0 or slightly under. That helps keep your SWCG free from any calcium buildup.

Take care.

 

[jimim]

i think looking at the cya is also impt here. that 60 sounds off. if it was just added no way you can have a legit reading that quick. also you should find out how high you can take ur FC level right now with the new plaster cause if you can't take it above 3-4 then having a higher than 30 or 40 is not going to fly cause u will also be below the min which makes the pool water more prone to algae.

so do you first know how much cya they put in based on ur gallons of water in the pool?

i hope that makes sense.

jim

- - - Updated - - -

u aren't using salt for the first 30 days either so you can play wit thhe numbers as stated above to see if you can drop down in that 7.2 range to buy u some time. i was doing that all summer but then as my water temp started to drop more and more i couldn't drop down lower than 7.4. now i'm at the point that my sweet spot is 7.8 to 8.2 to keep me in range. when i say range i mean +/- .3 range.

jim

 

[mknauss]

Is there a chemistry reason why FC must be kept low for new plaster or is that due to Pool Builder legend?

 

[Goob]

CSI - see Pool Math - Calcite Saturation Index - requires pH, TA, CH, CYA, Temp, uses Borate, Salt
Less than -0.6 is suggestive of problems for plaster, tile, stone, and pebble pools.
Greater than 0.6 is suggestive of problems for all pools.

Enter all your test results (including your current pool water Temperature) into Pool Math. CSI is calculated for you. As you have a SWCG, it is best to keep it near 0 or slightly under. That helps keep your SWCG free from any calcium buildup.

Take care.

i think looking at the cya is also impt here. that 60 sounds off. if it was just added no way you can have a legit reading that quick. also you should find out how high you can take ur FC level right now with the new plaster cause if you can't take it above 3-4 then having a higher than 30 or 40 is not going to fly cause u will also be below the min which makes the pool water more prone to algae.

so do you first know how much cya they put in based on ur gallons of water in the pool?

i hope that makes sense.

jim

- - - Updated - - -

u aren't using salt for the first 30 days either so you can play wit thhe numbers as stated above to see if you can drop down in that 7.2 range to buy u some time. i was doing that all summer but then as my water temp started to drop more and more i couldn't drop down lower than 7.4. now i'm at the point that my sweet spot is 7.8 to 8.2 to keep me in range. when i say range i mean +/- .3 range.

jim

Is there a chemistry reason why FC must be kept low for new plaster or is that due to Pool Builder legend?

Again, not sure how the CYA is up where it is. I am pretty confident about the reading based on the test kit. I may be even adding more mix to the tube than needed to make sure the black dot is gone. CYA has dropped down to 55 today from the initial peak of 65 the day after start up.

I don't know how much they put in. The start up guy should be here today or tomorrow and was going to vacuum the pool while here. I will see what he says about additions and how much. As mentioned above, I know that he added some Jack's Magic but don't know how much or what else.

FC is still going up. I'm now showing 12.0 (again, pretty confident on the reading).

I know that I have 3 tablets in one skimmer (I'm assuming something like trichlor tablets although I wouldn't know one from another). I haven't looked in the inline chlorinator to see if there is something else in there. I would assume water would start shooting out if I opened it as the pump is one continuous run.

The readings I received from this morning are

FC 12 (I am starting to worry about this being this high and really don't know how this can be unless it is because of the tablets in the skimmer basket)
CC 0
pH 7.6 (added 76 oz of MA last night and brought this down from about 8.0, I'll add about 100 oz to get this down to 7.2 and see if this helps other numbers)
CYA 55
CH 75
TA 280
Temp 75
Salt 300ppm

I'm showing a CSI of -.05 (app) or -.03 (Pool Math via website) so I'm assuming I don't need to do anything drastic, just tweak the CH down and maybe the FC based on what our experts here think.

mknauss, since it is a new pool, I don't have the SWG up and running yet.

I do plan on getting some calcium chloride today to bring up the CH. Pool Math is showing 6 gals or 63 lbs.

Any input on the high FC? attacking the low CH now? Other numbers?

Again, I can't thank you all enough for guiding me through this.

 

[mknauss]

I would suggest removing all forms of solid chlorine. Your CYA is 60, high enough for now. Your CH does need to go up. But do not go above 250 ppm CH as you are going to struggle with high TA all the time as I remember you had sky high TA fill water.

Good luck.

 

[jimim]

Is there a chemistry reason why FC must be kept low for new plaster or is that due to Pool Builder legend?

“Builder legend” as in they say it should be? If so the breakin papers from my plaster manufacturer says mine had to be no higher than 3-4 for the first 28 days. They r the gate keeper for my warranty so no way I was breaking away from that. That’s for my quartz. I didn’t know if pebble or other surface manufacturers say the same?

 

[jimim]

Your ta will keep dropping as u keep adding acid. The fc of 12. Is there a recommended level from ur brand plaster. Not what the builder or installer said. What he company who makes the plaster says? That’s what I would be following. I also would remove all solid pucks. No reason to be using them. I would be dosing manually with liquid chlorine and acid like u are. That way u r in control of ur own numbers. If u add ch aim on the lower side cause as u cure ur ch might climb a bit. I aimed low as suggested from other members with plaster. Glad I did. Suz always said to dose on the safe side vs hitting exact targets. That’s why there r ranges. U want to dose on the side of the range that u can control. Like cya. Aim low cause u can always jack it up but to lower it it’s harder. U have to drain water. Same with ch aim low cause u can add more but if it gets too high. Drain time.

 

[jimim]

http://mmgtx.com/docs/PTI-Start-Up-Maintenance-Procedures-Chlorine.pdf

somethomg like this for ur finish. I don’t have pebbletech but this appears to be thier papers re care the first 28 days. I was given and was told to follow similiar for my plaster. I personally would be following thier recommended levels since they hold the warranty like soooo many others say here. I always error on the side of caution though.

 

[Goob]

I would suggest removing all forms of solid chlorine. Your CYA is 60, high enough for now. Your CH does need to go up. But do not go above 250 ppm CH as you are going to struggle with high TA all the time as I remember you had sky high TA fill water.

Good luck.

Done. Already showed a drop in FC to 10 on tonight's numbers. I need to lower this a lot more according to the document jimim shows below. I'll get some Calcium Chloride to get the CH down.

Your ta will keep dropping as u keep adding acid. The fc of 12. Is there a recommended level from ur brand plaster. Not what the builder or installer said. What he company who makes the plaster says? That’s what I would be following. I also would remove all solid pucks. No reason to be using them. I would be dosing manually with liquid chlorine and acid like u are. That way u r in control of ur own numbers. If u add ch aim on the lower side cause as u cure ur ch might climb a bit. I aimed low as suggested from other members with plaster. Glad I did. Suz always said to dose on the safe side vs hitting exact targets. That’s why there r ranges. U want to dose on the side of the range that u can control. Like cya. Aim low cause u can always jack it up but to lower it it’s harder. U have to drain water. Same with ch aim low cause u can add more but if it gets too high. Drain time.

http://mmgtx.com/docs/PTI-Start-Up-Maintenance-Procedures-Chlorine.pdf

somethomg like this for ur finish. I don’t have pebbletech but this appears to be thier papers re care the first 28 days. I was given and was told to follow similiar for my plaster. I personally would be following thier recommended levels since they hold the warranty like soooo many others say here. I always error on the side of caution though.

Thanks for that document! I'm going to lock in on that for now until the PB tells me why I shouldn't.

Got rid of the pucks. I thought FC was meant to be up that high just to prevent algae that early in the process. That's what I get for going along. I'll do the bleach from now on even if they want to put some more pucks in.

Do I want to bring my pH down and aerate to get the TA down now or is that something to fix when everything else is aligned?

Numbers from tonight after adding ~100oz of MA around 2pm and removing the tablets from the skimmer basket.

FC 10
CC 0
pH 7.3
CYA 60
CH 75
TA 270
Temp 73
CSI -.37

Through Pool Math, I found that if I shoot for about 225 on the CH, the CSI will be about .1. Is it better to keep CSI at/near 0 or does one need to focus on the other numbers and CSI will work itself out based on those?

 

[mknauss]

FC is based on CYA -- see [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]

Your TA is high but will be continuous battle with your fill water. You are correct the CSI will be a bit above 0 right now, but that is not a big deal as your pool water temperature is low, which effects CSI, and your CH needs to come up with your new plaster. I would not aggressively drop TA as you will be adding acid with the curing plaster and TA should come down over time. Evaporation is fairly low right now so that helps. Your future will be very tied to managing pH and TA with your SWCG, especially next summer.

Take care.

 

[jimim]

Like said above ur ta will keep dropping as u drop acid. Look at it already coming down. Aim low for the ch cause it might climb cause of the new plaster.

Im going to tell you what others have told me. If ur csi is in that negative positive .3 range u r good for now. If u stay in that range with a ph of 7.2 bring it down that low. If u can’t keep ph at the lowest u r able to stay in range. Remember being out of range a day or so is no big deal. I don’t go below 7.4 now cause it brings me too much out of range but over summer with warm water I always dropped to 7.2.


Free chlorine and algea growth are th are all dependent on the cya chart like said above. That’s why having a right cya number is so impt cause that sets ur free chlorine level to prevent algea. The paper I sent u. Make sure it’s the e act one for ur plaster. Call them today. Talk to them about the exact numbers they want you to follow to make sure. Better to be safe than sorry.

Jim

 

[Goob]

FC is based on CYA -- see [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]

Your TA is high but will be continuous battle with your fill water. You are correct the CSI will be a bit above 0 right now, but that is not a big deal as your pool water temperature is low, which effects CSI, and your CH needs to come up with your new plaster. I would not aggressively drop TA as you will be adding acid with the curing plaster and TA should come down over time. Evaporation is fairly low right now so that helps. Your future will be very tied to managing pH and TA with your SWCG, especially next summer.

Take care.

Sounds good.

I added about 30lbs of calcium chloride in the afternoon to bring up my CH to about 225, a target you mentioned in a previous post. It hit at around 200 so I put another 5 lbs in so I don't overshoot the 225. I'll test again tomorrow.

I'll focus on the pH, FC, and CH for now as I can affect those more easily and leave TA to the ebb and flow of the pH rise and fall as you are mentioning along with jimmy.

Like said above ur ta will keep dropping as u drop acid. Look at it already coming down. Aim low for the ch cause it might climb cause of the new plaster.

Im going to tell you what others have told me. If ur csi is in that negative positive .3 range u r good for now. If u stay in that range with a ph of 7.2 bring it down that low. If u can’t keep ph at the lowest u r able to stay in range. Remember being out of range a day or so is no big deal. I don’t go below 7.4 now cause it brings me too much out of range but over summer with warm water I always dropped to 7.2.


Free chlorine and algea growth are th are all dependent on the cya chart like said above. That’s why having a right cya number is so impt cause that sets ur free chlorine level to prevent algea. The paper I sent u. Make sure it’s the e act one for ur plaster. Call them today. Talk to them about the exact numbers they want you to follow to make sure. Better to be safe than sorry.

Jim

My TA is coming down again as I went for a pH of 7.2 to allow it rise and let the TA fall a little. I started about 300 and the TA is now down to about 240.

As mentioned in the above reply, I focused a little more on CH to bring that around 225. As for staying in +/-.3 CSI, it's back to -.16 but in the afternoon it went up a little to .47. I'll keep working on it. My pH was 7.8 with that higher CSI so I'll try to keep that a little closer to the 7.2 for now.

My pool builder tried to convince me not to worry about the levels right now as they are responsible for it. I didn't buy it though as even if they would be responsible for any damage, finger pointing in the long term is going to come back to me. That paper you linked to does apply to my plaster and it has good info in it. I wish the PB would have given that to me once the plaster was applied.


Now, the new question-

Should I be following the chemical ranges and targets for a bleach pool (via the FC CYA chart) since I won't have the SWG on for another 3 weeks or should I aim for the SWG levels since that is what this will lead to?



Numbers for the evening-

FC 7
CC 0
pH 7.2
CYA 60
CH 200
TA 240
Temp 69
CSI -.16

 

[Goob]

In more exciting news, just a few more items until the fence and gate are put back into place and I can have my backyard back to mess it up the way I want to.

It was 3 ring circus around here this afternoon.

I had-

Plumbing

The plumber was here finishing up the fire pit with the fire ring put in and lava rock put on top. I plan on putting glass in eventually, but for now, I'll go with what was paid for.

He also redid some valves for me as they had the shutoff for the pool downline from the shutoff from my sprinklers which where they tapped off of to do the autofill. To winterize my sprinklers, I isolate the sprinkler via a valve off the main water line and then leave my back flow preventer valves at a 45deg angle to make sure all moisture is gone. Because my pool's auto fill was tapped off my sprinkler line, I wouldn't be able to winterize the system unless they valved the sprinkler line separately from the pool. I now have a valve off the main water line that could shut off the sprinklers and pool at the same time. I also have a valve further downline for the sprinkler and one for the pool so I can isolate one or the other as needed.

As I told the PB that I want to make sure that I can isolate any part of my pool from others, I had the plumber add a valve to my pool heater so that I can cut off the heater or cut off the fire pit individually. Before, he had a valve that could isolate the fire pit and a valve that would shut off the whole system. Without the new valve, if I needed to take the heater out for service/replacement, there was no way to use the fire pit.

Clean Up and Grading

A team was here to clean up the trash and regrade the yard. I had already cleaned up most of the trash and left it in a pile so I made their life a little easier. I can't stand a messy area so it was pure selfishness doing that work for them! I was impressed with how much scrap concrete they took off the edges and gathered up. I figured more would be left behind for me to excavate when it was in my way digging holes for the landscape.

The grading turned out better than I expected. My usual yard guy was here doing some work on the planters with drains and filling with soil so I told him to keep an eye on the grading as any problems were going to be his to fix before he puts the sod down! 4 dump trucks of fill and sand and it was all used!

At the end, they did a good acid wash of the concrete decks to get rid of the dusty color and bring out some color from the pebbles. I was gone until after dark by this point, but my wife says it looked good. Excited to see it in the morning.

Start Up

The start up company came by to check the water, but more importantly, they set up the Screen Logic controls. Very nice. Already playing around with the colors and settings like a kid on Christmas.

Tomorrow should be another busy day with smaller projects to tie up loose ends and hopefully some pictures to share.

 

[kimkats]

Run your numbers as a chlorine pool until you add the salt and turn on the SWG.

I am like you.........I clean up once they leave if it is a multi-day job. Clutter=stress in my life=must go!

I can't wait to see the pics! You are SOOOOO close to being done!

Kim

 

[jimim]

kim,

i'm not experienced enough in this one.

the cya is 60 so they should be having a FC level min of 5 from the cart/

BUT the papers for the plaster says FC o higher than 3-4 I think I remember. I didn't look back.

That would mean it would be below that min for the CYA.

What is thier plan of attack for a target now that they have better control with using liquid. If it is kept below the min is thier a chance for algae? shoudl they call the plaster manufac to find if they can keep it higher?

I know this is the one thing that keeps coming back into my head when I look at the big picture here.

jim