I see... a 24/7 operation would not have been a problem had it been my own pool, but given that I will be taking my friend up on her offer to allow me to equip a pool at her house, she'd be the one paying the electric bill and I'd hate to get her stuck with the ongoing expense. I was hoping that the system could be shut down during the week and then, say, on Friday she'd turn it on so that by Saturday, for example, the pool would be ready for my daughter to swim in. If SWG truly is a limiting factor maybe I should go back to chlorine injection then, and mitigate its harshness with salts or borates, as it has been suggested upthread. Tricky...
Extra clean (UV?) pools in the Boston, MA area
- Thread starter dfmk
- Start date
I see... a 24/7 operation would not have been a problem had it been my own pool, but given that I will be taking my friend up on her offer to allow me to equip a pool at her house, she'd be the one paying the electric bill and I'd hate to get her stuck with the ongoing expense. I was hoping that the system could be shut down during the week and then, say, on Friday she'd turn it on so that by Saturday, for example, the pool would be ready for my daughter to swim in. If SWG truly is a limiting factor maybe I should go back to chlorine injection then, and mitigate its harshness with salts or borates, as it has been suggested upthread. Tricky...
- May 3, 2007
- 18,094
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
That would never work. FC eventually degrades so it must be added daily or the pool will turn into a swamp. But again, the energy use of a VS pump running at SWG speeds should be less than 150 watts. Also, it would be fairly easy to estimate the monthly costs if you wanted to reimburse them.
The SWG is a limiting factor for run time (i.e. minimum time required to generate FC). Nothing else. But if you run 24/7 it doesn't matter, it will produce more than enough FC.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,727
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Variable speed pumps are very energy efficient. My pump runs at different speeds during the day but I did the calculations. You know how much total energy my variable speeds consumes in one day -
~2.8 kWh or about $0.39 per day....
When you can run them at very low speeds (below 1000RPM), they use about as much electricity as a light bulb. You could easily afford to pay your friends extra utility costs if she can find them in her bill....most people when they run VSPs and look for the extra spike in utility costs can't even see it because it's in the noise. The pump's front panel will tell you exactly how much power it is using (RPM's and Watts are easily displayed), so you can easily pay your friend back.
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You could, if you wanted to, have an electrician install a separate electrical energy meter on the sub-panel that runs the pool equipment so your friend can get an exact measurement and you could easily pay her back.
I see. This shows my ignorance in how to operate a pool. Would the calculation of the electricity cost simply be 150 watts x 24 hours x 30 days, so about 108kWh per month? That's about $12 per month I think given our rates. Not bad indeed.
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Got it. Thank you!
- May 3, 2007
- 18,094
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Cool. So I feel like I have a plan -- the above seems to be the equipment that, with your guys help, I've landed on and I know what to look for in terms of contractors once the summer season is over. Thinking this through a step further, I am wondering about ongoing costs. We already talked about the $12 per month to continuously run the pump. We talked about Seaklear PRS, although I am not sure how many bottles of that per season I will end up needing. I am guessing the SWG needs some supplies too. Is it salt? How much of it? What else? DE refills for the filter?
Mainly, I am trying to understand whether the expense associated with running the new set up will exceed the current expense that my friend has with her bromine-based system. For example, I don't think she runs her equipment 24/7 now -- will the efficiency of the new pump offset the longer pump run times plus the UV lamp electricity consumption? Also, she mentioned that bromine tablets are relatively inexpensive, would SWG supplies cost more? And as far as testing goes -- will the testing requirements for the new set-up be different from what she has now?
Like I said before, her offer is incredibly kind, so I would hate if I got her stuck with a higher expense as my "thanks".
- May 23, 2015
- 25,727
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Here are some expenses -
Pool salt is cheap but the intial setup will cost some money. To go from 200ppm to 3500ppm chloride concentration (salt), you'll need about 24, 40-lbs bags of salt. At about $6 per bag, that's about $144. In a pool with no leaks, you shouldn't see too much slat loss and so you'd only be adding salt at the beginning of a season to correct for winterization draining and refill in the spring. A couple of bags per season at most.
The SWG will likely run at about 200W power consumption (when ON) so that will add a little bit to the power bill. It's normally not necessary to run it at 100% duty cycle so it should have minimal impact.
DE is cheap. And, considering the filter you'd be getting, you may only need to charge it up once per season. That's a 10lb charge of DE and most DE is sold in 25lb containers. The cost is around $30 or so, so it's not really a big expense.
Your initial chemical start up (cyanuric acid for stabilizer, muriatic acid for pH adjustment, etc) should cost a few hundred bucks but then be fairly cheap to maintain over the season and from season to season. You can figure that most TFP pools spend about $300 per season on chemical costs. You'll need to buy a test kit for the pool, so figure that's about $100 up front and then refills will likely be less than $30-$50 per season (I suspect closer to $30). Next, you'll have to figure out water and this is going to be tricky -
You can't fully drain a vinyl liner pool so your options here are to do either attempt a partial drain and refill in order to dilute away the bromine (could take several cycles of water exchange) OR completely drain the pool but then pay money to have the liner replaced. A new liner, especially for what sounds like a very custom-shaped pool, could be a fair bit of coin to replace - upwards of $8k (I dunno, that's a guess, I have a plaster pool so I know nothing about vinyl liner costs). After installing a new liner, you can then refill from your friends spigot if she is on municipal water. If she's on a well, you'd likely want to not stress her well out and the water could have iron in it, so you'd be better off trucking water in for the fill. Trucked water can be a big up-front expense and so if that becomes necessary, you might want to get some estimates for what that costs.
Other than that, on-going pool costs can be fairly low.
Pool salt is cheap but the intial setup will cost some money. To go from 200ppm to 3500ppm chloride concentration (salt), you'll need about 24, 40-lbs bags of salt. At about $6 per bag, that's about $144. In a pool with no leaks, you shouldn't see too much slat loss and so you'd only be adding salt at the beginning of a season to correct for winterization draining and refill in the spring. A couple of bags per season at most.
The SWG will likely run at about 200W power consumption (when ON) so that will add a little bit to the power bill. It's normally not necessary to run it at 100% duty cycle so it should have minimal impact.
DE is cheap. And, considering the filter you'd be getting, you may only need to charge it up once per season. That's a 10lb charge of DE and most DE is sold in 25lb containers. The cost is around $30 or so, so it's not really a big expense.
Your initial chemical start up (cyanuric acid for stabilizer, muriatic acid for pH adjustment, etc) should cost a few hundred bucks but then be fairly cheap to maintain over the season and from season to season. You can figure that most TFP pools spend about $300 per season on chemical costs. You'll need to buy a test kit for the pool, so figure that's about $100 up front and then refills will likely be less than $30-$50 per season (I suspect closer to $30). Next, you'll have to figure out water and this is going to be tricky -
You can't fully drain a vinyl liner pool so your options here are to do either attempt a partial drain and refill in order to dilute away the bromine (could take several cycles of water exchange) OR completely drain the pool but then pay money to have the liner replaced. A new liner, especially for what sounds like a very custom-shaped pool, could be a fair bit of coin to replace - upwards of $8k (I dunno, that's a guess, I have a plaster pool so I know nothing about vinyl liner costs). After installing a new liner, you can then refill from your friends spigot if she is on municipal water. If she's on a well, you'd likely want to not stress her well out and the water could have iron in it, so you'd be better off trucking water in for the fill. Trucked water can be a big up-front expense and so if that becomes necessary, you might want to get some estimates for what that costs.
Other than that, on-going pool costs can be fairly low.
Awesome, JoyfulNoise, super helpful as usual. She does not have a vinyl liner and she gets her water trucked in (it's lake water, supposedly). She is currently doing a tile replacement project in her pool and had to fully drain it. From the way she talked about it, it didn't seem to present a huge issue.
Thank you!
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Wow -- 24 bags of salt! Do you just dump them into the water, or do you slowly put it into the generator somehow?
Thank you!
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Wow -- 24 bags of salt! Do you just dump them into the water, or do you slowly put it into the generator somehow?
- May 23, 2015
- 25,727
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
OHHHHHHH!!! I thought it was a vinyl liner pool (so many are in the northeast). That's good to know.
Yes, you dump all the salt in and then you get into the water and splash around and throw the salt crystals in the air....we call it Diamond Day around here because the kids have tons of fun diving down and grabbing handfuls of salt. It takes a good 48 hours to fully dissolve and homogenize in the water.
- May 3, 2014
- 62,729
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Why not change it to SWCG or liquid chlorine right now if it is drained --- even if you used solid chlorine 
mad for the rest of this year you could deal with a small drain if necessary after you change out the equipment.
Just a thought.
mad for the rest of this year you could deal with a small drain if necessary after you change out the equipment.Just a thought.
As I was asking that question I was wondering if I am setting myself up for a joke, and now I can't tell if you are joking (especially after your very funny "turning purple" comment earlier)
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Why not change it to SWCG or liquid chlorine right now if it is drained --- even if you used solid chlorine
Just a thought.
You mean just replace the brominator with an SWG unit?
- May 3, 2014
- 62,729
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
If the pool is drained right now for this tile work - why not? That is assuming it is completely drained -- I am assuming that from your previous statement.
Makes sense. I am not exactly sure what stage the tile project is in right now -- the water may have already been put back in -- but you are right, that would make perfect sense to do it now (assuming I can get the equipment and the people to install it on short notice, without taking time away from an already short season).
- May 23, 2015
- 25,727
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I say, don't rush....this is a big project you're contemplating and there's no need to rush it here. Doing right is way more important than doing it fast. If all goes according to your plan, you will have many, many years of swimming ahead of you. You're looking at ripping out a lot of plumbing to get all these things to come together and I'm sure your friend would actually like to swim in her pool this season and not have to lose time while someone messes with chlorine when her brominator was working perfectly fine.
Yes, the potential for creating inconveniences for my friend is a huge consideration for me and I want to minimize them throughout the whole process.
Diamond day is a real thing....the kids love it!
Matt he has you figured out already hehe
Kim
Matt he has you figured out already hehe
Kim
Hi there. Now that we know you don't eed to replace the liner, I don't have a lot to add (Matt had asked me earlier to weigh in as I'd just had a liner change.)
But I do have a few observations, without the benefit of having read the whole thread:
1. The UV may require a bit of re- plumbing BUT changing to SWG right now instead of going back still makes sense and to my mind, helps your friend and helps you save on future project costs.
-Plumbing a SWG is a very cheap, eg. Less than an hour service call for a pool tech.
- Doing the electrical portion IME is relatively easy...my electrician friend did mine in kind but it didn't seem to take him long.
- Salt takes 24 hrs to dissolve
- Now your friend would NOT have to buy any sanitizer all season...saving her money and giving improved water quality
- And you'd save at least $1,000 I expect by NOT having to truck water again once you had the UV and variable speed equipment (that's what my water cost me in Michigan for 24,000 gallons last summer.
Re: crypto...I can go try to dig this up in the next few days, but I'd been reading somewhere in water quality technical papers that floccing with alum is actually pretty effective at capturing/dropping crypto in infected pools. Normally, TFPers avoid floc because its a bit finickity to use, you have to vac to waste, and it may be incompatible with DE - plus for regular TFPers, its usually completely unnecessary. But if I can find the paper that was in, it may be worth a read nonetheless. Of course, that doesn't help in prevention, but it may help in a baseline sanitation plan.
But I do have a few observations, without the benefit of having read the whole thread:
1. The UV may require a bit of re- plumbing BUT changing to SWG right now instead of going back still makes sense and to my mind, helps your friend and helps you save on future project costs.
-Plumbing a SWG is a very cheap, eg. Less than an hour service call for a pool tech.
- Doing the electrical portion IME is relatively easy...my electrician friend did mine in kind but it didn't seem to take him long.
- Salt takes 24 hrs to dissolve
- Now your friend would NOT have to buy any sanitizer all season...saving her money and giving improved water quality
- And you'd save at least $1,000 I expect by NOT having to truck water again once you had the UV and variable speed equipment (that's what my water cost me in Michigan for 24,000 gallons last summer.
Re: crypto...I can go try to dig this up in the next few days, but I'd been reading somewhere in water quality technical papers that floccing with alum is actually pretty effective at capturing/dropping crypto in infected pools. Normally, TFPers avoid floc because its a bit finickity to use, you have to vac to waste, and it may be incompatible with DE - plus for regular TFPers, its usually completely unnecessary. But if I can find the paper that was in, it may be worth a read nonetheless. Of course, that doesn't help in prevention, but it may help in a baseline sanitation plan.
I didn't locate the reference yet, but if you've already read through CDC info on crypto, you know that absolute 1 micron filters will filter the cyst.
This product purports 1 micron filtering (unknown if absolute) -- I've had posters use it for helping clear up oxidized metals etc. It might qualify as an extra filtering option/second tier for you together with the UV. Here's a link if you're interested: It can be attached to the pool return. How It Works | The Slime Bag
Update: This is redundant as I think you already saw it and its what the pros may be based on
While I didn't find the specific Alum flc article, I did find this older article about a sand filter floc system the EPA approved for crypto that might warrant more digging: (forgive me if this is redundant to you http://www.aquaticsintl.com/facilities/maintenance/epa-approves-new-crypto-filtration-application_o
This product purports 1 micron filtering (unknown if absolute) -- I've had posters use it for helping clear up oxidized metals etc. It might qualify as an extra filtering option/second tier for you together with the UV. Here's a link if you're interested: It can be attached to the pool return. How It Works | The Slime Bag
Update: This is redundant as I think you already saw it and its what the pros may be based on
While I didn't find the specific Alum flc article, I did find this older article about a sand filter floc system the EPA approved for crypto that might warrant more digging: (forgive me if this is redundant to you
http://www.aquaticsintl.com/facilities/maintenance/epa-approves-new-crypto-filtration-application_oHello and thank you for chiming in! Everything you said sounds very reasonable. One thing I am slightly confused about is whether an SWG can be installed without simultaneously replacing the pump. As I mentioned somewhere upthread, my friend doesn't run her equipment 24/7 and someone replied that with an SWG system it would be a must. I was concerned about the increase in electricity costs for her, but the folks here explained that the newer variable speed pump would be so efficient that the energy consumption will be negligible. So from that I concluded that an SWG and the new pump should be installed together -- is that not the case?
But anyway, I'll ask her tomorrow whether the tiling project is still in progress -- it is possible that the water is already back in. I also vaguely remember that she said she gets the water replaced in the beginning of every season and that the cost was much lower than $1000 -- more like $300 or $400, but I may remember wrong. In any case -- I will need to speak to her to fully understand the situation. Anyway, THANK YOU for sharing your thoughts.
Would Seaklear PRS be an example of the floccing? We had an interesting discussion on that topic earlier -- I contacted the company to address some of the concerns with DE filters and they said that you can use it no problem. And thank you for the pointer to SlimeBag. The website looks a bit hoaky, but the product is cheap enough to try. Definitely don't see how it could hurt. Thank you!