n240sxguy
Well-known member
That's the kindest thing I have ever read on this forum. That makes me happy. [emoji4]
Extra clean (UV?) pools in the Boston, MA area
- Thread starter dfmk
- Start date
That's the kindest thing I have ever read on this forum. That makes me happy. [emoji4]
n240sxguy
Well-known member
Circupool makes a swg that outputs 3.1lbs of chlorine a day compared to the IC60's 2.0lbs per day. That would be an option if you go with a chlorine generator instead of liquid chlorine injection. I have been running a circupool si-60+ for two years now on my 30k gallon pool.
Thanks for the pointer! I believe you are thinking of the Circupool RJ60 system: Compare Salt Pool Chlorine Generators - Price - Capacity - Chlorine Output - Warranty
What does everybody on here think -- is that a viable option? Again, I know nothing about pools, but when I was reading up on the UV sanitation systems I noticed that one of their selling points is that they allow to reduce the amount of chemicals necessary to keep the pool clean. Assuming I can get a 4-bulb UV system that Joyfulnoise was referring to and a new DE or Perlite filter, could the RJ60 be powerful enough to provide adequate chlorination? I am leaning toward an SWG over the liquid chlorine injection because my friend, whose pool this equipment would be installed in, mentioned that she likes the fact that her current bromine system is softer on the skin and the eyes than a traditional chlorine system would be. Given that it is already very kind of her to even consider allowing me to retrofit her pool for my daughter's use, I don't want her to be end up with a system that she would find inferior in any way to what she currently has. But then again, obviously the main goal of this project is to make water 100% safe, so if we can't achieve that with an SWG that may mean that the whole project may need to be called off.
What do you guys think?
Thank you again everyone!
Saltwater is nicer on the skin, but the chlorine a SWG makes is the same chlorine in bleach. And you can always add salt to a bleach pool for the nice feels (borates too for exceptional silky feeling).
A properly maintained chlorine system shouldn't be hard on skin, eyes or bathing suits, regardless of if the chlorine is from bleach or a SWG.
A properly maintained chlorine system shouldn't be hard on skin, eyes or bathing suits, regardless of if the chlorine is from bleach or a SWG.
- May 23, 2015
- 24,651
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Don't believe the sales and marketing hype by the UV manufacturers about using XX % less chemicals than without UV, it's pure B/S. You still have to maintain a proper chlorine residual which is a function if the stabilizer level (cyanuric acid or CYA) whether or not a UV system is present. We can go over the pool water chemistry details later.
A 3lb/day chlorine generator would be more than enough for 35k gallon pool.
A 3lb/day chlorine generator would be more than enough for 35k gallon pool.
Yeah, I had a feeling that was the case.
So my revised equipment list is now looking like this:
Pump: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OLSWQS6 (I am only sticking with this one since no one pointed out that there was anything wrong with it -- I really chose it kind of randomly, based on the number of Amazon reviews)
Filter: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00268F6BW (same as above, kind of a random pick that seemed large enough)
SWG: Circupool RJ60
UV: Paramount 4-lamp system (assuming it exists, I already emailed Paramount with questions)
Am I missing anything? Also, as far as the DE filter goes, this article http://www.aquaticsintl.com/facilities/maintenance/crypto-proof_o mentions "Perlite medium" as the most effective way to remove crypto by filtration. To make sure I understand this correctly: this is just the stuff you put into the filter in place of DE, right? So when you buy the filter it doesn't come filled with any DE and I have a choice of what to fill it with -- DE or this Perlite thing, right?
And another potentially stupid question (or a series of related questions): the DE filter I linked to above is rated as 144 gpm. Does this simply mean that in order to fully filter the 35k gallon pool I need to run it for 35,000 / 144 = 243 minutes, or 4 hours? How does one account for the fact that the filtered water mixes with the not-yet-filtered water? Is there a rule of thumb, something like "you have to let the water circulate 2x over to achieve full filtration"? Also, do I need to install a pump that can provide a 144gpm flow to match the filter? Is there generally a need to match pump to filter in terms of capacity?
Thank you as always!
- May 23, 2015
- 24,651
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Honestly, I'd just stick with tried & true DE. Perlite can be substituted for DE but it very likely costs more per pound and really isn't going to perform any better than DE. I realize that article talks a lot about crypto and perlite BUT also realize that the article's author, Kimberly Walsh, works for EP Minerals which is a huge supplier of both DE and perlite to the pool market. So there's definitely a bias in that article to talk about perlite as a substitute for DE especially when the author has a vested interest in both.
Personally I like Pentair equipment and the Pentair IntelliFlo is probably the industry leading variable speed pump. If you get the IntelliFlo and then later wanted to get an automation system installed (like the Pentair EasyTouch system), then the installation would be a snap! If you are replacing the DE filter, then I would pair the IntelliFlo with a Pentair QuadDE-100 filter (I have that one, so definitely NO BIAS there) as the QuadDE is an amazingly efficient and easy filter to work on. If it is sized to the largest extent possible (the QuadDE-100), then you'll likely never have to backwash it and you can simply tear it down once per year to clean it out. Since your swim season would be short, that means having to do very little filter maintenance over the entire course of the season - just clean it out & winterize it and then re-open it and charge it with DE in the spring. Now, normally you would also want to pair a Pentair IntelliChlor SWG (IC-60) with all that to make a future automation setup super-easy, but given your pool size the IC-60 would be on the edge of too small. You can still use the CircuPool RJ-60 with a future automation system, it's just that it would be essentially a stand-alone SWG that's only being powered by the automation system without any ability to control the SWG remotely. Not a huge deal-breaker in my opinion and, if the pool seems to operate well with minimal FC loss during the day, you may be able to go down to an IC-60 sized SWG and still have a very safe pool to swim in.
Personally I like Pentair equipment and the Pentair IntelliFlo is probably the industry leading variable speed pump. If you get the IntelliFlo and then later wanted to get an automation system installed (like the Pentair EasyTouch system), then the installation would be a snap! If you are replacing the DE filter, then I would pair the IntelliFlo with a Pentair QuadDE-100 filter (I have that one, so definitely NO BIAS there) as the QuadDE is an amazingly efficient and easy filter to work on. If it is sized to the largest extent possible (the QuadDE-100), then you'll likely never have to backwash it and you can simply tear it down once per year to clean it out. Since your swim season would be short, that means having to do very little filter maintenance over the entire course of the season - just clean it out & winterize it and then re-open it and charge it with DE in the spring. Now, normally you would also want to pair a Pentair IntelliChlor SWG (IC-60) with all that to make a future automation setup super-easy, but given your pool size the IC-60 would be on the edge of too small. You can still use the CircuPool RJ-60 with a future automation system, it's just that it would be essentially a stand-alone SWG that's only being powered by the automation system without any ability to control the SWG remotely. Not a huge deal-breaker in my opinion and, if the pool seems to operate well with minimal FC loss during the day, you may be able to go down to an IC-60 sized SWG and still have a very safe pool to swim in.
Awesome. Thank you for such an amazingly detailed and informative response, JoyfulNoise!
Although I don't think an automation system will be a part of the first phase of the project, I'd still like to fully understand the automation implications. You mention:
What other ways of controlling the SWG are there? I just wanted to understand what we'd be foregoing if we went with Circupool.
Although I don't think an automation system will be a part of the first phase of the project, I'd still like to fully understand the automation implications. You mention:
What other ways of controlling the SWG are there? I just wanted to understand what we'd be foregoing if we went with Circupool.
- May 23, 2015
- 24,651
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
When an IntelliChlor is paired with an EasyTouch panel, there is a serial data link cable between them. The serial link provides information to the EasyTouch panel from the cell about the cell's output percentage (0-100%) and the salinity level plus any errors/faults that might be present. So, if you are remotely controlling the pool equipment via the ScreenLogic interface or the more reliable, but definitely old-school, RF remote, you'll get information about the SWG. You will also be able to remotely change the % output.
When an SWG is not connected to an automation system or you pair up a non-Pentair SWG, you get none of that control or information and anytime you need to make a change to the SWG or check if it is operating correctly, you then have to walk back to the equipment and make those changes.
Got it regarding automation. In the meantime I received a response from Paramount:
Sucks. I guess I'll work with them to figure out the right set up. I cannot immediately figure out the GPM of the IntelliFlo pump, but I'll keep looking.
Sucks. I guess I'll work with them to figure out the right set up. I cannot immediately figure out the GPM of the IntelliFlo pump, but I'll keep looking.
- May 23, 2015
- 24,651
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Interesting....when I did some researching on UV systems about a year and half ago, I do remember seeing Paramount UltraUV specifically mention that ability to expand out to four bulbs...perhaps they discontinued doing that since it was likely way too expensive for the average pool owner and not that cost effective.
Flow rates are hard to judge on a pool unless you actually have a flow meter on the plumbing. You can try to estimate it based on the pump specifics and filter specs, but it's mostly guesswork. Also, from what I remember, usually one hooks up a UV system in a by-pass configuration in the plumbing (as opposed to inline configuration) so that you can use valves to adjust the flow of water into the UV tank - the slower the flow, the larger the UV dose. Obviously you can't make the flow too low or else that defeats the sanitation purpose. I'd be interested to hear what Paramount suggests....
Another person from Paramount replied mentioning that they have 3-lamp systems. I am trying to get more information...
Another response from Paramount. What is this ozone gizmo they are talking about? Is this something I should be interested in?
- May 23, 2015
- 24,651
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
If you have UV, you don't need ozone. Ozone generators on pools are ridiculous as most of them are extremely under-powered (in terms of actual ozone output) relative to your pool volume. Ozone can work on a hot tub but not really well at all for a pool.
Just get the UV system and you'll be fine.
Just get the UV system and you'll be fine.
OK, so after the latest round of extremely helpful input from the folks here, this is my revised equipment list:
Pump: Pentair IntelliFlo VSF (they also have the "XF" model, although I wasn't sure what it would add)
Filter: Pentair Quad D.E. 100
SWG: CircuPool RJ-60-PLUS (the "PLUS" supposedly offers more longevity)
UV: Paramount 3-lamp system
My only reservation about this setup is the fact that the particle size that the DE filter claims to catch is 5 microns (Pentair - Quad DE Cartridge Style Filters), but crypto oocysts can be as small as 1 micron. Should I worry about that? Or should I trust that the UV will get everything that the filter misses?
Also, with this setup, how long would I need to run the system for to be sure that the entirety of the 35,000 gallon pool has been sanitized?
If this equipment list seems more or less correct to everyone here I will start looking for installers. Based on what I read earlier in this thread, since the existing system is bromine-based, all of the water currently in the pool would need to be dumped, so the project will probably be scheduled to be done after the current season is over, but I can probably start looking around. Can you guys give me an idea of what kind of effort/cost would be involved in dismantling the existing equipment and installing this set? Being a total newbie to the pool business makes me the perfect sucker for contractors looking to overcharge, so as I start soliciting quotes I'd like to get an idea of what kind of labor quotes for installation are reasonable to expect.
Thank you again, everyone!
Pump: Pentair IntelliFlo VSF (they also have the "XF" model, although I wasn't sure what it would add)
Filter: Pentair Quad D.E. 100
SWG: CircuPool RJ-60-PLUS (the "PLUS" supposedly offers more longevity)
UV: Paramount 3-lamp system
My only reservation about this setup is the fact that the particle size that the DE filter claims to catch is 5 microns (Pentair - Quad DE Cartridge Style Filters), but crypto oocysts can be as small as 1 micron. Should I worry about that? Or should I trust that the UV will get everything that the filter misses?
Also, with this setup, how long would I need to run the system for to be sure that the entirety of the 35,000 gallon pool has been sanitized?
If this equipment list seems more or less correct to everyone here I will start looking for installers. Based on what I read earlier in this thread, since the existing system is bromine-based, all of the water currently in the pool would need to be dumped, so the project will probably be scheduled to be done after the current season is over, but I can probably start looking around. Can you guys give me an idea of what kind of effort/cost would be involved in dismantling the existing equipment and installing this set? Being a total newbie to the pool business makes me the perfect sucker for contractors looking to overcharge, so as I start soliciting quotes I'd like to get an idea of what kind of labor quotes for installation are reasonable to expect.
Thank you again, everyone!
- May 23, 2015
- 24,651
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Nope. You don't want or need the VSF (variable flow) pump. You only need the Variable-speed pump. It's cheaper than the VSF and less complicated. The variable flow pumps are designed around the notion that you need a specific number of turnovers per day in a pool and that concept of "minimum turnovers" is pretty much bunk. You can certainly get the VSF model if you want, but it's an added complexity/cost that is really unnecessary. Let's not worry about turnovers right now. Until the new equipment is in place, you'll only have a theoretical idea of what the system is capable of. I'll ask our hydraulics expert to chime in so he can give you some idea of what to expect - you may need to provide some more info about the pool such as how far the equipment pad is from the pool, how many returns are in the pool, how many skimmers, is a main in the pool, plumbing pipe diameter, etc.
I don't think there is a way to make a pool 100% crypto-proof. Obviously once the crypto gets into cyst form, there little that can be done to mechanically filter it. Coagulation will get some, filtration will get some and UV will destroy some - it's numbers game at this point. Crypto is only going to get in the pool mainly from some other person having a crypto infection and then having a fecal accident in the pool, at least that's the most likely disease transmission route. As long as you put into place a top-notch filtration and sanitation system (which you are planning) and the pool has a known population of bathers in it, you really can't make the system any better than what you are contemplating at this point.
You could, if you wanted to, try to use the SeaKlear PRS system with the DE filter. You might give SeaKlear a call and see if they have any special guidance for a DE filter (such as a lower dose, etc, etc). Then, what you could do is only use the PRS system when you plan to have your daughter in the pool and, if you plan to be away from the pool for several weeks, just not worry about it. This way, you know for sure that when you're swimming, the pool is receiving optimal filtration. The only downside is that the PRS may make the DE filter load up faster and require more cleaning than would otherwise be the case when not using a clarifier product. For most DE filters, use of a clarifier is not necessary and only serves to load up the filter faster but, in your application, the use of clarifier is for health reasons and entirely justified as long as SeaKlear can verify that it is ok to use with DE.
As far as installers go, this could be tricky. Few pool builders will want to do this kind of renovation work because it's lots of labor, moderate equipment costs which they won't make much markup on, and very little profit advantage for them. You may have to consider doing this as an "owner builder" type renovation where you purchase the equipment and then find the plumbers and electricians to do the necessary hook-ups. You'll also likely need to target this work closer to the off-season when the subcontractors would be less busy and more hungry for work. Also, if you go the DIY route, you can offer the subs cash payment in exchange for a discount (always offer cash AFTER you get their quote on the work). If you can find a plumber that does a lot of pool work, then they could likely help you purchase the equipment on their wholesale account if you give them a little bump in payment to make it worth their while....
I don't think there is a way to make a pool 100% crypto-proof. Obviously once the crypto gets into cyst form, there little that can be done to mechanically filter it. Coagulation will get some, filtration will get some and UV will destroy some - it's numbers game at this point. Crypto is only going to get in the pool mainly from some other person having a crypto infection and then having a fecal accident in the pool, at least that's the most likely disease transmission route. As long as you put into place a top-notch filtration and sanitation system (which you are planning) and the pool has a known population of bathers in it, you really can't make the system any better than what you are contemplating at this point.
You could, if you wanted to, try to use the SeaKlear PRS system with the DE filter. You might give SeaKlear a call and see if they have any special guidance for a DE filter (such as a lower dose, etc, etc). Then, what you could do is only use the PRS system when you plan to have your daughter in the pool and, if you plan to be away from the pool for several weeks, just not worry about it. This way, you know for sure that when you're swimming, the pool is receiving optimal filtration. The only downside is that the PRS may make the DE filter load up faster and require more cleaning than would otherwise be the case when not using a clarifier product. For most DE filters, use of a clarifier is not necessary and only serves to load up the filter faster but, in your application, the use of clarifier is for health reasons and entirely justified as long as SeaKlear can verify that it is ok to use with DE.
As far as installers go, this could be tricky. Few pool builders will want to do this kind of renovation work because it's lots of labor, moderate equipment costs which they won't make much markup on, and very little profit advantage for them. You may have to consider doing this as an "owner builder" type renovation where you purchase the equipment and then find the plumbers and electricians to do the necessary hook-ups. You'll also likely need to target this work closer to the off-season when the subcontractors would be less busy and more hungry for work. Also, if you go the DIY route, you can offer the subs cash payment in exchange for a discount (always offer cash AFTER you get their quote on the work). If you can find a plumber that does a lot of pool work, then they could likely help you purchase the equipment on their wholesale account if you give them a little bump in payment to make it worth their while....
Will do and post the results here. This page says that "SeaKlear PRS works with most pool filter media: sand, zeolite, diatomaceous earth, cellulose, and cartridges", so maybe this really is OK to use it with a DE filter.
Great advice re: installation. If anyone who is reading this knows a Boston-area contractor who would be interested in a project like this and qualified to do it, I'd appreciate a reference.
Thank you!
- May 3, 2007
- 17,306
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
One should never rely upon a filter to remove bacteria and viruses anyway. It would just take way to long for them to make it into the filter. They need to be killed very quickly to minimize exposure and the only way to do that is with proper FC levels. Even the UV will not be an immediate kill because it requires the bacteria to make it to the UV system which could take hours or even days.
In your case, the SWG would probably be the limiting factor due to the production rate. However, given the risk involved here, I would definitely recommend a 24/7 pump operation. This would keep water going through the UV system so you have constant exposure and keep the FC levels at near constant levels throughout the day and night. With a VS pump, it shouldn't cost much anyway because you can run at very low RPM.
If you need estimates of flow rates I can do that but again, given your situation, a 24/7 run time seems warranted.
...and here is the answer from SeaKlear customer service:
yes the product is compatible with the DE filter, there are no special dosing instructions, just make sure the filter is clean and charged with fresh DE
- May 23, 2015
- 24,651
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
That's great information, thanks for posting it!
Heck, I may even get some just to see what affect it has on my DE filter....I'm known to tinker around with my pool quite a bit. To me, it's just a big chemistry set....hopefully I don't turn everyone purple one of these days....