Diferent Circupool Models output?

[Brett S]

Thanks! I was going to do that on the next pass. Where are you finding the cell life for the Edge and Core? Or are you basing it on the warranty (which would be dicey)? That is why I didn't do it yet. I was seriously thinking of contacting DSP/Circupool and asking about cell hour life for the Core and Edge since they are actually the standard measure of cell life in the industry...

Unfortunately I couldn’t find any cell life numbers for the edge and the core. I put a little note in my post that I used 15000hr for my calculations, simply because the warranty was similar to the RJ series warranty and that one had a 15000hr cell life. I agree that it may not match reality, but unfortunately they aren’t really giving us anything to go on here. If you contact them definitely let us know what they say.

You know, as I’m thinking about it, I wonder if there is an issue with cell life in the EDGE series. As has been discussed a lot elsewhere on the forum, the EDGE works differently than traditional SWG systems. Most SWG’s just cycle on and off based on the percentage you set. If my RJ-30+ is set to 50% then it will be on for 50% of the time and off for 50% of the time. However if an EDGE is set to 50% then it is on 100% of the time, but only at 50% power.

Since the cell lifetime is rated in hours that could be a big drawback to the EDGE system. If I ran my RJ-30+ at 50% 24 hours a day then it would have 12 hours of on time per day and last for 1250 days (15,000/12).

However even at 50% power the EDGE cell would still have 24 hours of on time per day. If it also had a 15000hr cell life then would it only last for 625 days? Does being on at 50% power make it last longer than being on at 100% power? Maybe this is why they don’t publish a cell lifetime rating for those units.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Yeah.. I think I might e-mail them. I suspect it isn't that simple. The CSI/LSI internal to the cell shouldn't be as bad at the lower constant duty cycle when it is on... and the Cl level itself will be lower as well... so that is a plus for deterioration. The fact that it is always on might be a minus as you stated. I suspect overall it might be the same really... but that makes stating the cell life impossible to do in hours because it absolutely would vary by intensity. Interesting. This is starting to turn into a thought experiment! I think I will contact them with the concerns. I am still leaning towards the Edge, but I think they might want to clarify this for buyers.

 

[Brett S]

This is starting to turn into a thought experiment!

There is also a distinct possibility that no one has ever thought about it in this much depth before either

 

[Airtrade]

I love this. Now I know I'm not the only one that goes in deep on purchase research.

I went with the edge40 after looking at the cell replacement cost. Hopefully it doesn't turn out to age the cell every minute its energized. I just wish it had the 5% adjustment increments.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

So I did contact them and they responded very quickly with not with what I thought. They admitted that they could not answer many of my questions, including the cell life one. Based on my pool, equipment, and needs they recommended:

The Universal 40.

They told me that it probably is their most popular unit and that there are no worries about them discontinuing them. The smaller cells going away were because people were apparently buying them to replace T-Cell-15 units and they didn't sell many of the other kinds in the series.

The reason why is because it produces more chlorine than the other units and it will be a good match for the Hayward VSP I have not running all of the time. And it's oversized enough for adequate life in my case. Sounds good to me. All were appropriate for my needs according to them.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

I love this. Now I know I'm not the only one that goes in deep on purchase research.

I drive people batty with it. . The Edge is a high quality unit from what I can tell. You will be fine. I suspect in reality that the life would be about the same in practical use.

 

[Airtrade]

I drive people batty with it. . The Edge is a high quality unit from what I can tell. You will be fine. I suspect in reality that the life would be about the same in practical use.

It does and doesnt suprise me they couldn't answer your questions.
It also seems odd that the least expensive model has more adjustability.

 

[markayash]

Yeah.. I think I might e-mail them. I suspect it isn't that simple. The CSI/LSI internal to the cell shouldn't be as bad at the lower constant duty cycle when it is on... and the Cl level itself will be lower as well... so that is a plus for deterioration. The fact that it is always on might be a minus as you stated. I suspect overall it might be the same really... but that makes stating the cell life impossible to do in hours because it absolutely would vary by intensity. Interesting. This is starting to turn into a thought experiment! I think I will contact them with the concerns. I am still leaning towards the Edge, but I think they might want to clarify this for buyers.

Good luck emailing them..Twice I asked specific questions and got generic answers..I asked about how the cell works and was told " don't need to worry about it" I asked what range of salt would it operate in since my test kit is showing 2800 and they said " It will work in a wide range, add another bag maybe" it says 3000-4500

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

It does and doesnt suprise me they couldn't answer your questions.
It also seems odd that the least expensive model has more adjustability.

It's because the adjustment is analog on that unit... The others are digital steps.

I did ask them to talk me into the more expensive Edge in my email... And they didn't do it... Kinda odd, really. Oh well, I am not buying a Lamborghini.... I am sure no matter what I get it will work fine...

Probably next week or at most two weeks from now I will order. It depends on how much work on the equipment pad gets done this weekend.

I am building that sun shade I mentioned last year in the build thread, and that will give me more mounting and plumbing options. I finally have TA where I want though I wish my pH would rise just a little... I am wondering if a small amount of boric acid is in my future...

 

[markayash]

It's because the adjustment is analog on that unit... The others are digital steps.

I did ask them to talk me into the more expensive Edge in my email... And they didn't do it... Kinda odd, really. Oh well, I am not buying a Lamborghini.... I am sure no matter what I get it will work fine...

Probably next week or at most two weeks from now I will order. It depends on how much work on the equipment pad gets done this weekend.

I am building that sun shade I mentioned last year in the build thread, and that will give me more mounting and plumbing options. I finally have TA where I want though I wish my pH would rise just a little... I am wondering if a small amount of boric acid is in my future...

One guy at discount salt recommended the edge. Asked again week later recommended the RJ

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

I gave them a list of what I whittled down to in the $740-$850 price range... it included the RJ-30+ but he thought that will be a little small for a 13-14K pool with a VS Pump.. They must have a lot of the Ui-40's in stock right now! Probably because I already ruled out the RJ-45+ by my price range....

 

[markayash]

It does and doesnt suprise me they couldn't answer your questions.
It also seems odd that the least expensive model has more adjustability.

I like the edge, might be hard to determine cell life because they don't know if your like me and running it at 2/8 or wide freaking open I was spending $150 on tablets and chlorine so if the cell last 4 or 5 years and cost $350 I won't complain
My chlorine has been staying around 5 so may try running it at 1 bar.
Its a very well build unit IMHO..The only "cheap" part is the cell is actually clear and the blue part snaps around it..I debated leaving it off since mine is in the shade.
Also they do sell a bypass which looks exactly like a cell with nothing inside but I think they have to special order them

 

[markayash]

I do wish I could get a technical contact at Circupool or Discount salt..I have an engineering brain and like to know how things work
Like should I run at 80% and cycle it on and off or leave it at 20% 24x7.

I also wonder if my heater could damage the cell? If I heat the pool for hours I think I will use the bypass tube

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

I dunno.. I'd say "probably not" on the heater. Have you measured the temperature coming out of the heater? I imagine if it's less than 120F you'd be fine, honestly.... It's almost looking like the cells are happier with hotter water from some of the on going threads here, anyway.

I agree with technical contact. I wonder if they are manufactured and designed for them? It's either that or they are worried about competition. I don't think these things are actually very complicated, but to be honest with you the pool market is screwy anyway and it's not a business I would want to be in. They probably like people like us because we may annoy them and over analyze things.. but I doubt if we break a lot of stuff and then force them to warrant it...and when we do send in stuff for warranty it's legit and half diagnosed when they receive it.

I still might go with the Edge.. the reason I wouldn't is that our water here is kind of terrible and if I am going to have to replace cells every 3-4 years anyway.. it might as well be the less expensive one.. see I'm going backwards again!

 

[wireform]

I do wish I could get a technical contact at Circupool or Discount salt..I have an engineering brain and like to know how things work
Like should I run at 80% and cycle it on and off or leave it at 20% 24x7.

I also wonder if my heater could damage the cell? If I heat the pool for hours I think I will use the bypass tube

Mark,
You have most of the facts from discussions on the forum. They can't give you much else as they don't want to be accountable from what comes out of their mouths. The cell doesn't care how you run it 1 /hr 100% or 4/hr 25%. The main thing is size in order not to over tax it. The heater just passes whatever quality water it's given and then on to the cell. If we follow TFP protocol and keep slightly negative CSI, I assure you great bang for buck. There are quite a few here on the forum with SWCGs running more than just 2-3 years of smooth sailing without even the need to clean for scaling because there is simply nothing to clean. Some of my installs look like they're barely used, like brand new clean plates all because of this forum and the education we've had.

 

[markayash]

I dunno.. I'd say "probably not" on the heater. Have you measured the temperature coming out of the heater? I imagine if it's less than 120F you'd be fine, honestly.... It's almost looking like the cells are happier with hotter water from some of the on going threads here, anyway.

I agree with technical contact. I wonder if they are manufactured and designed for them? It's either that or they are worried about competition. I don't think these things are actually very complicated, but to be honest with you the pool market is screwy anyway and it's not a business I would want to be in. They probably like people like us because we may annoy them and over analyze things.. but I doubt if we break a lot of stuff and then force them to warrant it...and when we do send in stuff for warranty it's legit and half diagnosed when they receive it.

I still might go with the Edge.. the reason I wouldn't is that our water here is kind of terrible and if I am going to have to replace cells every 3-4 years anyway.. it might as well be the less expensive one.. see I'm going backwards again!

You will like it, I know you have mentioned the plastic case but it's well built and will hold up IMHO. I do think it's the next design and time will tell how it holds up!

 

[markayash]

Mark,
You have most of the facts from discussions on the forum. They can't give you much else as they don't want to be accountable from what comes out of their mouths. The cell doesn't care how you run it 1 /hr 100% or 4/hr 25%. The main thing is size in order not to over tax it. The heater just passes whatever quality water it's given and then on to the cell. If we follow TFP protocol and keep slightly negative CSI, I assure you great bang for buck. There are quite a few here on the forum with SWCGs running more than just 2-3 years of smooth sailing without even the need to clean for scaling because there is simply nothing to clean. Some of my installs look like they're barely used, like brand new clean plates all because of this forum and the education we've had.

Thanks, I have the water in great shape We are about to be empty nesters and with the SWG and robot I am hoping I can enjoy the pool and not spend time battling algae!

 

[wireform]

Mark,
If you just TFP you'll most likely never see algae ever again with your SWCG pool.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

I "got off the pot" and ordered the Universal40. By the time I was done with shipping and accessories, I was over what I wanted to spend on the Edge. Shipping was $19.19 and apparently the $1 upgrade offer on the other units went to $10 today as well. I was at close to $800 with the dummy cell, cleaning stand and shipping with the Universal 40 as it is. I think it's the correct choice in my specific application and case.

I will do a little analysis on this unit when I get it and I will offer what I find to the TFP Circupool database. I suspect it will be a lot like a Hayward with the T-cells...

Now to get all the work done I need to do this weekend so I can install it next weekend. I do have a functional K-1766. I'll never buy online again unless it is from tftestkits, I actually got a kit with a broken box (which I melted back together) and R-600-A OTO instead on R-630-A Chromate Indicator and the seller just dropped off the face of the earth when I wrote them. I ordered a R-630-C off of Amazon and both are now okay with a far enough our expiration date, but for that price I could have bought it at a Leslie's. I got pool stored from a store in Utah! (I added it to another order at the time.) I guess I'll be doing a lot of OTO tests in the next year to use it up! It will be interesting to see what the salt level is before I add water softener salt to the pool... and after 6 months of liquid chlorine.

But this analysis of these units has actually been fun. I suppose that and the control units on a VS Pump are really the only high tech stuff with pools. Maybe solar heat later.. but I think next year.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Mark,
You have most of the facts from discussions on the forum. They can't give you much else as they don't want to be accountable from what comes out of their mouths. The cell doesn't care how you run it 1 /hr 100% or 4/hr 25%. The main thing is size in order not to over tax it. The heater just passes whatever quality water it's given and then on to the cell. If we follow TFP protocol and keep slightly negative CSI, I assure you great bang for buck. There are quite a few here on the forum with SWCGs running more than just 2-3 years of smooth sailing without even the need to clean for scaling because there is simply nothing to clean. Some of my installs look like they're barely used, like brand new clean plates all because of this forum and the education we've had.

I suppose I agree with that, but since the "industry standard" of actual (not warranty) cell life has always been hours of life and/or total chlorine production over the lifetime you think they would be able to answer why the newer cells would be equivalent or better than the older ones. since they failed to do that (and actually also talked me out of it) I went with the older, proven, technology.

It would be nice if we could get a tiny bit more technical information out of them, I can't see it doing anything but helping them sell cells.

And of course (and I am stating this so it's archived in the tread and make it clear to people who are learning this stuff), the cells will still need to be replaced with perfect CSI's and no scaling eventually because the ruthenium plating itself is sacrificial on the cells. But I imagine that we will get more than estimated life out of these because we are so zealous about our water.