Com link error between IC20 and Easytouch After Intelliph dispenses acid

[bakrsdzn]

I’m getting a repeatable com link error between Easytouch and IC20. Setup: IC20 connected to Intelliph to IC power center to Easytouch.

When I manually dispense acid or IPH dispenses acid on schedule sanitizer output lights on IC go dark and IC stops making chlorine. A few minutes later I look under diagnostics on the Easytouch and I have a COM LINK ERROR but still reading 4200 ppm. IC will not start making chlorine again unless I restart system. All components maintain power the whole time.

If I remove IPH from the equation IC never gets com link error. I had a pool tech replace the IPH but still same problem. Tech recommended replacing IC without doing any diagnostic to support recommendation, but it’s making chlorine, it is expensive, and it’s not certain to be the problem. It is about 5 years old and 8000 run hours. Thoughts? Should I take the techs advice and replace IC? Would that even solve the problem?

Please help, I’m stumped and I can’t get the local pool techs to do much beyond recommending replacing my working IC.

 

[ajw22]

@Dirk can take you through the known problems between the IntellipH and IntelliChlor.

You can read a summary at...

Pentair Intelliph - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[bakrsdzn]

@Dirk can take you through the known problems between the IntellipH and IntelliChlor.

You can read a summary at...

Pentair Intelliph - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Thanks. So if it is burnt connector would I have lost power to IC? Is my case consistent with this one?

 

[bakrsdzn]

Just inspected. No burnt pins.

 

[ajw22]

Well that is good.

The way the IntellipH turns off the IntelliChlor is by setting the % to 0. It sounds like the RS-485 link is lost for some reason after the IntelliChlor is set to 0% and before it is enabled.

Lets see if @Turbo1Ton @rstrouse has ideas.

 

[rstrouse]

RS485 is not necessarily a link. There is no negotiation between the master and slave devices on the bus. I would suggest you try to change the settings at the IntelliChlor cell when it is in this Comm Link error state. This will tell you if the IntelliChlor is still receiving messages from EasyTouch or IPh to disable the control panel. If any of the buttons respond on the cell it is not getting messages from one of those two. If you can make any changes on the cell, then the requests are not getting through from either one. NOTE: This takes 30 seconds or so for the cell to give up the panel lock depending on where it hits the polling cycle.

Unfortunately, the only way I know of to distinctly inspect who is communicating on the bus and what they are saying is to install njsPC and capture the communications. However, the most likely cause of this would be that the relay is not switching the yellow/green comm wires correctly. When IPh is dosing it will respond to EasyTouch requests as a dummy cell and send requests for 0% production to the cell. Then when it completes it simply switches back to allowing EasyTouch messages to make it to the cell.

There isn't a response from the cell that there is a COMM LINK ERROR. It simply keeps track of whether the cell responds ok to the command that disables the control panel. When dosing IPh, responds to EasyTouch and when it is not dosing, the IntelliChlor cell is supposed to respond. If that request never makes it to the cell, there will be no response and a COMM LINK ERROR will show up.

To me the most likely cause is iPh not releasing the comms completely and the cell is either not receiving the message or the cell is responding and not making it back to EasyTouch.

 

[Dirk]

I’m getting a repeatable com link error between Easytouch and IC20. Setup: IC20 connected to Intelliph to IC power center to Easytouch.

When I manually dispense acid or IPH dispenses acid on schedule sanitizer output lights on IC go dark and IC stops making chlorine. A few minutes later I look under diagnostics on the Easytouch and I have a COM LINK ERROR but still reading 4200 ppm. IC will not start making chlorine again unless I restart system. All components maintain power the whole time.

If I remove IPH from the equation IC never gets com link error. I had a pool tech replace the IPH but still same problem. Tech recommended replacing IC without doing any diagnostic to support recommendation, but it’s making chlorine, it is expensive, and it’s not certain to be the problem. It is about 5 years old and 8000 run hours. Thoughts? Should I take the techs advice and replace IC? Would that even solve the problem?

Please help, I’m stumped and I can’t get the local pool techs to do much beyond recommending replacing my working IC.

OK, the good(ish)-news/easy part first: your IC is about 80% used up. You can buy a new one, and see if it solves the problem. If it does, great, if it doesn't (or if it does) you can still use the 20% left in your old IC. Either reinstall it, and save the new one, or use the new one (since it's warranty clock has started), and keep the old one as a back up (that's what I have done), and/or use it when the new one is done, as you're waiting for its replacement. See what I mean? Either way, you're not throwing money away for buying a new one as a diagnostic step. You're about to spend that money anyway, and these things keep getting more expensive. I'm inclined to buy my next one now, just for that reason!

So I'm not seeing any obvious scorching on the connector. Usually its obvious, and sometimes it's actually fried and melted. When that problem exists, the IC stops working all together, because it's not getting any power at all. The scorching, in essence, disconnects one or both of the IC's power leads, as if it's just unplugged. It's usually not intermittent. When the conductors fry, that's it.

Whether the IpH is dispensing on schedule, or manually, two things happen simultaneously. The IpH physically disconnects the two comm wires connecting the IC to your EasyTouch (ET). It does so via a relay. Then the IpH sends a command to the IC that sets its output to zero. The acid gets dispensed, and then the IpH restores the IC's output setting, and then reconnects its comm wires to the ET.

So that technically is a comm interruption. I've been curious if the ET sees it that way, and reports it as such, or just ignores the short "intermission." I've just never observed an error message. But what seems to be unique to your set up is that the ET doesn't re-establish the comm link. We haven't seen that before, that I know of, so that's new. The comm can be fussy and this wouldn't be the first time it doesn't perform as intended. So...

WITH ALL THE BREAKERS OFF, you could hunt down all the red, black, yellow (or white), and green connections, disassemble them, clean all the wire thoroughly (or just re-strip them) and then reassemble, taking care that each re-connection is sound and secure. That might eliminate any corrosion that could maybe jumble the comm signal.

If that doesn't solve it, then you're left with replacing things one by one. IpH has been done. The ET's motherboard is suspect, as is the IC, and its power supply's surge card (the circuit board associated with the power supply). As I suggested first, replacing the IC might solve the problem, and whether it does or not, you won't really be out of pocket.

If that doesn't solve it, then the surge card is the cheapest, and then the mother board.

That's how I'd approach this.

The only other step that has been discussed here, is to apply some sort of conductive enhancer to the IpH connector's conductors (both internal and external). There are greases that are made for that purpose, that inhibit corrosion and encourage good contact. That'll only set you back about $10 on Amazon if you think that's worth a try.

Keep us posted on what you do, and what works and doesn't, because several of us are monitoring what's going on with the IC/IpH combo, so that we can offer findings to folks in your situation.

 

[Dirk]

I just read @rstrouse post. He knows a lot about the comm. But you said you have had the IpH replaced, and the problem persisted, which maybe negates his ideas about what the IpH is doing or not doing. Now, it's possible both IpH's have/had the same issue, but you can imagine that would be pretty rare. So depending on how you feel about those odds, that points back to the other four possible culprits: the wiring (and the connections), the mother board, the IC, or the surge card.

That said, he gave you some very excellent troubleshooting steps, and those are free!

 

[bakrsdzn]

Thanks guys! Ok got an update. Interesting one. When it is in comm error state I can adjust sanitation level up and down on cell itself. Figured out something else. When I hook up IPH first and I get a red status light, I then hook in the cell. And guess what, works normally! When I start everything up at panel with everything plugged in that is when I get issues. Starting in normal state, the one in which I get the error, when I add acid manually the IPH makes a faint click noise, then cell goes to 0% then acid dispenses. When I stop acid no clicking noise. Acid stops and lights on cell stay off. When I start the system and plug in cell last, I start the acid manually, clicking noise, cell goes to 0%, I stop it manually, acid stops, then click, then cell comes back on. Thoughts?

 

[rstrouse]

Smells an awful lot like that little white DPDT relay on the IPh is not disengaging. EasyTouch will constantly send messages (about every 2 seconds) to the IntelliChlor to keep control of it. If it does not hear back from it you have a COMM LINK ERROR. If you kill power to IPh with everything running after it gets into this state, does EasyTouch regain control when power is reapplied to the IPh?

 

[Flying Tivo]

Have you checked the IC board on the ET? Look for loose connectors on the coms wires green/yellow.

 

[Dirk]

To me the most likely cause is iPh not releasing the comms completely and the cell is either not receiving the message or the cell is responding and not making it back to EasyTouch.

@rstrouse, this sounds just like what you described, that the IpH relay is not reconnecting the white and green wires back together after dispensing. But what are the chances that is the IpH failing to do that, when he's on his second one?! That's possible, of course, though would be a crazy coincidence, but what else might cause this issue if not the IpH? It was my understanding (intuition, maybe) that the ET and IpH don't communicate with each other, except, as you explained, when the IpH is masquerading as a dummy IC while dispensing. But I didn't think the ET talks to the IpH in any way that would signal it not to reconnect it to the IC, right? And the surge card isn't communicating in any way, is it? Just acting as a comm wire "splitter" in essence.

@bakrsdzn, can you absolutely be certain the Pentair tech swapped in a new IpH? Did you see him do it, or did he just say he did?

All very weird. Sorry, just thinking out loud. I'm stumped.

 

[rstrouse]

There is nothing that IPh does to tell ET that it exists. The only time it should respond to anything is when it responds to the action 0 messages for the chlorinator. An IPh that has a protocol is called IntelliChem.

Yeah the only thing I can think of is that it is not reconnecting the comms back to the cell. It sounds like the relay is sticking or the contacts are pitted so it doesn't make contact on one of the comms lines.

 

[Dirk]

There is nothing that IPh does to tell ET that it exists. The only time it should respond to anything is when it responds to the action 0 messages for the chlorinator. An IPh that has a protocol is called IntelliChem.

Yeah the only thing I can think of is that it is not reconnecting the comms back to the cell. It sounds like the relay is sticking or the contacts are pitted so it doesn't make contact on one of the comms lines.

Yep, we're on the same page. I just can't wrap my head around that happening to two different IpHs, unless we're missing part of the story (like it didn't actually get replaced or something else).

 

[Dirk]

I would still do the step of hunting down all the comm wire connections and re-stripping and re-seating all of them. This still could be some errant corrosion somewhere playing tricks. The weird intermittence of it happening under one set of conditions but not under another set, along with surviving two different IpHs, might be explained by that, like the timing or the order of how things power on and a weak physical connection interacting somehow. I dunno. I just know from years of fooling with electrical that the adage is: 90% of all problems are due to the cables (back when I used to be in charge of setting up complicated live stage audio systems... in another life).

 

[bakrsdzn]

It is definitely a new IPH. New serial number and all. It was manufactured in 2021 close to my old IPH. Manufacturing issue possibly? What’s getting me is why would the startup order cause it to work correctly? Is there a significance behind that. I can repeat the startup order and it works. It’s not just a fluke. I’ll tinker with it more tomorrow and see what I see.

 

[Dirk]

Manufacturing issue possibly?

Certainly possible. This is the COMM relay that severs and then reconnects the COMM to the IC:




I don't want to encourage you to work on a live circuit, as it is risky to both you and the circuitry. But this is a possible troubleshoot step. You say you can hear a click from the IpH. That might be the relay. I'd be tempted to expose the circuit board, to better ascertain if the relay is what you are hearing. Recreate your two processes, the one where it works, and then the one where it doesn't, and determine for sure if the relay is the culprit. Maybe you'll be able to hear it better with the circuit board exposed. Or very carefully feel the relay, without touching any of the surrounding components or traces, of course, and see if you can feel it clicking: once for when the IpH starts dispensing, and then again when it's done. If you can hear or feel it click when the IC comes back online, but you don't when it doesn't, then you'd know it was the relay. Or at least the IpH not properly energizing the relay (which could be some other faulty component).

Keep in mind that your IpH is still under warranty, and that you wouldn't want to do anything to jeopardize that. Because you'll need them to come out and give you a new one. Or don't take the chance, and just have them come out instead and say you've got another faulty one. It really is their problem, and theirs to fix, not yours.

 

[bakrsdzn]

It really is their problem, and theirs to fix, not yours.

True. My trouble has been getting the local service providers to put in the effort. I’m trying to work through Pentair on the issue right now. Even the Pentair reps I talk to seem to have a rudimentary understanding of their own equipment. I am getting much more information from you all on this forum. It's getting to the point where I am running out of options. All they do is recommend replacing the salt cell, and if I push back and say all signs point to IPH, they start seeing me as disagreeable. The last Pentair rep I talked to got offended that I disagreed with one of his hypotheses and gave me the "I've been doing this for 30 years" line.

 

[mknauss]

A thought. Have them refund the cost of the iPh. Get a stenner tank and pump. Use that to add the acid. The iPh does nothing all that important.

 

[Dirk]

A thought. Have them refund the cost of the iPh. Get a stenner tank and pump. Use that to add the acid. The iPh does nothing all that important.

That's a way to go. The IntellipH has other issues, too. All of which I have stubbornly muscled through and solved, because I like how my IpH and IC work together. But the IpH does have the over-current problem. And the other shortcoming is, if you live in a similar climate as mine, when the pool water gets too cold for the IC to produce, and it shuts down for the winter, so too does the IpH. Which sucks. I solved this issue for my setup, so my IpH works year-round, but it was not a simple matter. Marty's Stenner solution has neither issue, but doesn't offer some of the niceties I've come to rely on from my IpH. Trade offs. But if Pentair can't or won't provide a working IpH, you might not have a choice.

Regarding Pentair's resistance, as I pointed out previously, you could bite the bullet and buy your next IC now, to see if that solves the problem. If it doesn't, Pentair would have to give you another IpH at that point. You won't be really losing any money doing that, whether it solves the problem or not. But I would try the other steps first: redo all the comm wire connections, and see if it really is that relay not doing what it's supposed to.

While I have had good luck with Pentair support over the years, I've found that their first-tier support staff doesn't have the depth of knowledge for these types of issues. And this one is pretty obscure, so that's understandable. Heck, for that matter, the IpH is pretty obscure on its own, I doubt it's any sort of top seller, so it doesn't get the same attention like, say, their IntelliFlo product line does.

When I have trouble with some company rep on the phone, I hang up and call back and try a different one. And will keep doing that until I find one that is more knowledgable, and/or sympathetic. I find that works a lot of the time, and tends to work better than the ol' "I wanna speak to your manager!" routine.

And why is it always "30 years!?!" Doesn't matter what industry... it's always 30 years! I always think to myself, all that means to me, pal, is that you haven't bothered to learn anything new in 30 years!!