Circupool RJ-45 Production Test

[JamesW]

GENERATING: Volts: 20.7 - 22.4; AMPS: -4.76 to -5.66 and 4.86 to 5.45; SALINITY NOW: 2,920 - 3,790;

This is too much difference.

The amps and instant salinity should be the same, or very close, in both polarities.

It seems like one polarity is underperforming.

Based on the amps, the production is not going to be better than about 1.25 lb per day.

To get to 2 lbs per day, the unit would need to get to about 9 amps and it shuts down at 8 amps.

The absolute best the cell could probably do is 1.75 lbs per day at 7.9 amps.

The voltage would need to increase to about 28 volts to make that happen or the water temperature or salinity would need to be higher, but that risks a high amps shutdown.

 

[Texas Splash]

@JamesW is this an indication of an underperforming cell, the module, or both? Or too hard to know?

 

[JamesW]

I suspect that the cell is underperforming, but it could also be an issue with the power supply box.

Maybe contact the manufacturer to see what they say.

 

[Texas Splash]

The amps and instant salinity should be the same, or very close, in both polarities.

I should clarify that entry. I was trying to show high & low amp and salinity ranges not specifically related to pos or neg. In both polarities, the SALINITY NOW was typically about 3,300 for each. The 2,940 was a one-time pos amps reading and the 3,790 was a one-time negative entry. Most salinity now readings were around the 3,300 mark +/- 100 for both polarities.

 

[trivetman]

Tex -

I have an underperforming Universal 55 which I’ve posted about a couple times. The output has been inconsistent since I installed it this spring, but generally between 30%-40% of the specs, running at 100% capacity. It got marginally better after I upped the salinity a couple weeks back and I thought for a minute I would leave it alone but got fed up with it the other day and will be sending it back to Circupool for testing as soon as I get a dummy cell here which is on the way.

FWIW - All of my electrical specs read right in the range they are supposed to.

 

[JamesW]

It seems that the manufacturer posts unrealistic production figures.

Hayward has independent test data.

Ask the manufacturer if they have any actual independent tests that show their units producing the amount of chlorine claimed.

I doubt that they will provide any proof of their claim of rated output.

https://hayward-pool-assets.com/assets/documents/poolscanada/pdf/literature/turbocell-sell-sheet.pdf

 

[BK MAC]

The output has been inconsistent since I installed it this spring, but generally between 30%-40% of the specs, running at 100% capacity.

This appears to be the path I'm headed. I've only had this thing two weeks, but I seem to be struggling with consistency. After having two nights of 1.4 and 1.6 FC production at 100% (should have been 3.9 per pool math) I adjusted for what I thought was a 40 % to spec setting to see if my FC gain/loss would break even for the day. I based my setting on the previous day's FC loss with no SWG running during the day. The weather was similar. At the end of the day my FC was + 1.4 from the AM reading. ???????? This unexpected gain happened once before.
I passed OCLT yesterday and ran at 100% for 2 consecutive nights with lackluster results . For now my plan is to run the swg at 50% between the hours of 9PM and 4 AM( 7 hours as I did before) to see if cycling has any effect on my results without the variable of UV burnout. For now, I'm just glad I oversized(?) this unit.

 

[Getitrite]

@Texas Splash -> Probably won't help you much ... My new RJ60+ has now been On for 2 weeks. I didn't think about performance from your aspect until I read your post, so I made a one-time observation. I still haven't captured historical stats as you have. I was more interested in making sure it was in fact producing, and it was happy with my chemistry. I don't know if RJ45 v. RJ60 is of any value to you at all.

However, FWIW 3 days ago -> Power: 15% Cell Volts: 23.1 Cell Amps: 5.62 Average Salinity: 3000 Real-Time Salinity: 3020-3100 K-1766: 3200

 

[poolurker5]

I have a new Universal-40 running about 5 months now, and I also noticed the output is lower than expected. I oversized to 4x with my 10,000 gallon pool mostly as I have a single speed pump and wanted to keep runtime lower while maintaining a FC of 7. Back in January some of you fine folks estimated for me this combo would produce about 1ppm per hour. I am now in the middle of summer and running about 6 hours. In the past several years using liquid I would be going through ~3-4ppm per day, I can't see a jump in need for 6ppm now, so unit must be running lower than advertised. Overnight test shows zero loss, all other values within TFP recommendations.

 

[trivetman]

@poolurker5

Are you running at 100% output for the 6 hours?

 

[jmastron]

I have a new Universal-40 running about 5 months now, and I also noticed the output is lower than expected. I oversized to 4x with my 10,000 gallon pool mostly as I have a single speed pump and wanted to keep runtime lower while maintaining a FC of 7. Back in January some of you fine folks estimated for me this combo would produce about 1ppm per hour. I am now in the middle of summer and running about 6 hours. In the past several years using liquid I would be going through ~3-4ppm per day, I can't see a jump in need for 6ppm now, so unit must be running lower than advertised. Overnight test shows zero loss, all other values within TFP recommendations.

From reading a number of threads where people have done actual tests on various units (an overnight gain test at 100% after having done an overnight loss test with it off to confirm the baseline), I have some suspicion that particular manufacturer is using some, let's say, generous creativity in how they come up with the specs. Remember how TV manufacturers used to quote the "tube" size, including the parts hidden behind the bezel, and the actual usable image was quite a bit smaller? Well, I realize I'm getting old enough that there now people who won't remember that, but still...

The Universal-40 and it's controller are very similar in looks to a Hayward T-15, or any number of generic units including the Calimar CMARSHA40-3Y I bought last year -- many look like the same box/cell with different stickers. From some recent gain experiments I've done, my cell generates 1.1-1.3 pounds per day. If I plug your pool size into PoolMath, that's right around 0.5ppm/hour, which seems pretty close to what you're seeing. So if the Universal-40 cell is basically the same, that would match.

If you want to test your production, first do an OCLT (loss test) to make sure you aren't consuming much/any chlorine overnight. Then, the next night, at dark measure FC (use a 25ml sample for better precision), run the pump and SWCG at 100%, then in the morning measure FC again and subtract. Post the raw results if you do -- we always like additional data points here!

 

[poolurker5]

@poolurker5

Are you running at 100% output for the 6 hours?

at 80%, but I run it at 3x for 2-hour cycles each, which at a 3 hour swg cycle should be equivalent to 100% for 6 hours. When generating it shows 25 volts and 5.2 amps, equivalent in the negative amp cycle.

 

[jmastron]

at 80%, but I run it at 3x for 2-hour cycles each, which at a 3 hour swg cycle should be equivalent to 100% for 6 hours. When generating it shows 25 volts and 5.2 amps, equivalent in the negative amp cycle.

If you're using a separate timer anyway with shortish cycles, I'd just set it to 100% to avoid any possible confusion around cycle times, especially if you're using cycles short enough go probably be at 100% anyway. I just leave mine at 100% and use the WiFi timer to control the production. The cell really doesn't care if it generates at 25% for 12 hours or 100% for 3.

 

[Texas Splash]

Below is an update on my module numbers from the past 6 days so you can compare to your RJ-Series modules.
NOTE - Output was 40% until Sunday (10 Jul) where I was able to lower it a bit due to better FC production. CYA at 70-80. K-1766 showed 3,600 - 4,000.

Manual says: NOT GENERATING: 16-31 volts; amps will be zero


Manual says: GENERATING: 21.0 to 27.0 volts; 2.50 - 7.80 amps



What I learned:
- Amps appeared to be right in the middle of ideal range for both polarities.
- Volts was always on the low end when generating. Seemed to be no correlation to temp, salt, etc. Perhaps just the way the voltage is dispersed/recorded within the unit while generating?
- Advertised 2 lbs per day may be a bit optimistic with a brand new unit under ideal conditions. As we say here at TFP, always best to oversize your unit.
- It is critical that the water be as organic-free as possible. Any organic load could interference with cell efficiency and potentially lessen your FC production, even if you pass an OCLT (I did twice).
- My cell began to show improvement 9-10 July, allowing me to lower the output a little. I may try one more overnight GAIN test later to compare to my previous ones.
- I wish I would've taken note of these numbers when the unit was new in Apr 2020, but I'll refer back at these from time to time in the future.
- While you can attempt an overnight GAIN test using the PoolMath APP to estimate FC gains at night, results can vary widely. My 7-hr @ 100% gains varied from 1.0 - 2.5 (projected 3.9)
- Would like my K-1766 readings to be closer to the module's salinity Now and Average Salt readings. Not sure if that disparity could be effecting the readings.
- If your cell has no error codes or red lights, you see bubbles, and is producing free chlorine, it is considered operating properly.
- If you attempt a warranty return, Discount Salt Pools will ask you about your chemistry to include phosphates and nitrates. They do not get into all the technic or production criteria we are discussing here. If you send the unit it for service and they determine the unit is operating as advertised, you may be held liable for any diagnostic service charges.

 

[wireform]

I've been at one of my RJ60 units that has been back and forth to them last year both the cell and the controller. The cell was "nothing wrong" but the controller had a board changed out per the pro rated pricing. It's still not 100% and can't wrap my head around it but I'll get it one day. Your RJ45 charts and summation are about what I'm seeing with this one even though it's the larger unit so I guess it's working as per design.

 

[poolurker5]

Perhaps the high advertised cell ratings are only attainable when the "24 hour boost mode" button has been activated?

On my Universal40, amp is always just above 5 (positive and negative), and volts hover around 25, give or take a 0.1 or two. When Taylor says salt is 3000, I bring it back up to 3500, which typically happens when the average_salt shows 2800.
I am glad I went 4x oversized to keep my pump run times down, if I went 2x I would be looking at 12 hours per day.

 

[trivetman]

- If you attempt a warranty return, Discount Salt Pools will ask you about your chemistry to include phosphates and nitrates. They do not get into all the technic or production criteria we are discussing here. If you send the unit it for service and they determine the unit is operating as advertised, you may be held liable for any diagnostic service charges.

Tex - did you actually send the cell in for testing and/or ask for replacement or refund?

 

[Texas Splash]

Tex - did you actually send the cell in for testing and/or ask for replacement or refund?

I did not. I had an RMA return invoice all set to go before the 4th holiday, but I figured with no mail going anywhere over the holiday, that's when I started experimenting with some things. I also stepping back a bit from the gain test expectations. Based on DSP's service repair instructions, I didn't feel my cell met the criteria since it is producing chlorine. In fact, it seems to be doing better now, so I'm going to just keep an eye on it for the time-being.

 

[wireform]

I can see why they're adamant because not everyone is a TFP member so chemistry is all over the place especially if you're a pool store goer with one of each bottle from the shelf in the water by then.

 

[trivetman]

I did not.

I will be as soon as I get the dummy cell to swap out. Will let you all know how it goes.