Air in pipes at lower RPM?

[Sdhb]

Hi all, new user here. Just bought the pool Math premium subscription and starting to take matters into my own hands. Also relatively new to owning a pool.

I have a variable speed Hayward pump, in ground pool with SWG and Hayward heater.

On higher RPMs everything seems good, but on lower RPMs, say around 1725rpm, I am noticing the pump basket seems to have a lot of splashing around in it. I can also hear "sloshing" / "chugging" in the heater as if water is pushing around but not at full stream (note the heater is off). I'm trying to figure out if this is normal, or if this is considered losing prime? Here is a video of each. Thanks all

Video 1 at 1725rpm :

https://imgur.com/a/xEF4RnP

Video 2 at almost full RPM :

https://imgur.com/a/gfKHWg9

 

[Texas Splash]

Welcome to TFP! Yeah, that's too much air in both scenarios. Appears you have a suction side air leak. Has the pump lid gasket been lubed well with pool silicone? Drain plugs in that pot as well?

 

[Texas Splash]

This article may provide more ideas.

Suction Side Air Leaks

If you see air bubbles coming out of the return lines in your pool, you likely have a leak. Some signs that a suction side plumbing leak has occurred include: Read more

www.troublefreepool.com

Also be sure to update your signature with all of your pool and equipment info. See my sig as an example and the article below. In fact, post some pics of your entire equipment pad. Might help.

Create Your Signature - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[ajw22]

Air in the pump basket is normal for Hayward VS pumps run at lower speed.

If everything else in your pool is running fine then ignore it.

 

[mgtfp]

But the water does look a bit churned up. Even at high speed there are lots of finer bubbles that look unusual too me. Is that still on the normal side?

 

[Sdhb]

Thanks. I guess I have differing opinions now. One that VS hayward pumps air is normal, the other that I have a leak. Everything is all lubed up now. I do notice when I shoot the suction side connection with the hose (circled in yellow) that air bubbles stop, which otherwise release one every 30 seconds ish when the pump is off. Potentially is that my leak point? If so how can I seal it? I think that orange stuff is contact cement, no? Also pictures of my pad below. Thanks again!

 

[ajw22]

@1poolman1 has said the following here...

Failing Aqua Rite T-9 Cell?

That much air is not normal as far as I can tell. @1poolman1 has experience with that pump. Just verified rpm’s. 30% is 1035 rpm, 50% is 1725 rpm’s (what it normally runs at) and 100% is 3450 rpm’s.

www.troublefreepool.com

EcoStar VSP, TriStar VSP, TriStar single-speed. I've installed at least 100 over the years they have been out. My experience is that the pot seldom fills completely with water most of the time. It was a concern when I first started using them, but no more. I don't believe mine has completely filled more than a few times, and never at lower speed and I never could figure how it did it. I do not have a suction leak, its just the nature of the pump.

If you look at the inlet to the pot on a TriStar and virtually every other pump on the market you will see that it is considerably farther below the top of the pot. That might explain it. That means the suction at the eye of the pump is lower than the air pocket that might be there and it just won't go away.

When they first came out 20+ years ago, the Jacuzzi Magnum was a similar configuration and they actually advertised that the "bubble" in the pot was evidence of less turbulence and therefore their pump was better.

 

[Sdhb]

That's helpful thanks. I'm still thinking though, that if the garden hose seems to stop the bubbles popping up, that the suction pipe must also have a small leak at the point it joins the pump.. Or the hose wouldn't have any effect, I think.

Would it make sense to caulk around the outside of it, or add more contact cement? I can't tighten it as far as I can tell as it's already bonded.

 

[ajw22]

That's helpful thanks. I'm still thinking though, that if the garden hose seems to stop the bubbles popping up, that the suction pipe must also have a small leak at the point it joins the pump.. Or the hose wouldn't have any effect, I think.

Would it make sense to caulk around the outside of it, or add more contact cement? I can't tighten it as far as I can tell as it's already bonded.

I agree it sounds like you have a small air leak there.

Let's see if @1poolman1 wanders by and how he suggests handling it.

I would not use contact cement or caulk. I might use some Pool Putty.

 

[mgtfp]

I think that the pot is partially filled with air is normal, but the churned up water is not. In my pump it looks only liked that when my suction cleaner gulped in some air that is getting through the system.

And if the bubbles stop with the hose, then it's quite obvious, I guess.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

The fitting circled in orange yellow should be threaded into the pump. There should be no glue. Loosen the union in front of the pump and remove the fitting and small section of PVC. Clean it up, apply some pipe joint compound, and reconnect.

Not sure what the orange crud is. Hopefully it's some type of pipe joint sealant and not glue.

 

[Sdhb]

I worry it's this : Oatey® Medium Orange CPVC Cement | Oatey

I vaguely recall pool guy had this or the purple stuff when he was installing the pump last year. I guess if I try to unscrew and it dosen't come off I can safely assume it was that. Any way to plug the leak from the outside without removing it?

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

It's all speculation. I'm not sure why a pool guy would use cement on a threaded connection into a pump. I've never used a cement that would provide the working time necessary to thread a fitting that deep into a socket. I'm sure that type of cement available though.

Can you get a better look at it? Maybe it was leaking and the cement was applied to the outside of the connection??

I'd hang out for @1poolman1 to respond

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

...Do you see the same type of sealant/glue on other fittings the pool man worked on?

 

[Sdhb]

...Do you see the same type of sealant/glue on other fittings the pool man worked on?

Actually no. No other sign of the orange stuff. I guess I'm just worried if it is cemented and I start trying to open it that I might cause damage. The pool guy we used was a local guy. Nice guy, but not sure that he was necessarily "by the book".

 

[mgtfp]

If it was just last year that he connected the pump, you could ask him to fix it. Work like that should last a bit longer than that.

 

[Sdhb]

If it was just last year that he connected the pump, you could ask him to fix it. Work like that should last a bit longer than that.

Yea, trying to avoid that. I suspect he will say it's normal to have some air get in or otherwise brush it off. Hopefully poolman1 has some ideas.

 

[1poolman1]

Thanks. I guess I have differing opinions now. One that VS hayward pumps air is normal, the other that I have a leak. Everything is all lubed up now. I do notice when I shoot the suction side connection with the hose (circled in yellow) that air bubbles stop, which otherwise release one every 30 seconds ish when the pump is off. Potentially is that my leak point? If so how can I seal it? I think that orange stuff is contact cement, no? Also pictures of my pad below. Thanks again!

Hayward Super pumps are very different from the TriStar line. They will, usually, fill completely with water, though at lower speeds they sometimes look like a TriStar. No one should ever use glue to seal a fitting into a pump. If that is a pool/spa combo, it is very likely that standard PVC male adapter has shrunk from the heat of the water. They can also be damaged by the vibrations of a pump, especially if that fitting was re-used.

I would remove the union and the fitting, wrap at least 6 wraps of Teflon tape around the fitting after cleaning it off. Then, I always apply a thin layer of silicone sealant over that. When the fitting is removed, carefully look at it from the side. If the taper (male pipe fittings always have a taper) is very apparent, it is best to replace the fitting. More wraps of T tape would help but it won't last. A high-temp pump union is best. The threads on those is not tapered as they are designed to be threaded completely into the pump without damaging it and sealing with an O ring.

 

[Sdhb]

Hayward Super pumps are very different from the TriStar line. They will, usually, fill completely with water, though at lower speeds they sometimes look like a TriStar. No one should ever use glue to seal a fitting into a pump. If that is a pool/spa combo, it is very likely that standard PVC male adapter has shrunk from the heat of the water. They can also be damaged by the vibrations of a pump, especially if that fitting was re-used.

I would remove the union and the fitting, wrap at least 6 wraps of Teflon tape around the fitting after cleaning it off. Then, I always apply a thin layer of silicone sealant over that. When the fitting is removed, carefully look at it from the side. If the taper (male pipe fittings always have a taper) is very apparent, it is best to replace the fitting. More wraps of T tape would help but it won't last. A high-temp pump union is best. The threads on those is not tapered as they are designed to be threaded completely into the pump without damaging it and sealing with an O ring.

Thanks. I don't have a spa so likely not heat related. I'll try to remove tommorow. I have a feeling pool guy glued it. That's the only explanation for why I figure it would be orange. Assuming that is the cause, is it fair to say thats a major red flag/ has caused damage to the pump threads?

 

[pjt]

Also pictures of my pad below.

Rotate your SWCG cell so the hump is down. This will keep the plates submerged at low RPM.