A slight "shock"

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borjis said:
That would make it less safe. The water needs to be bonded with at least 9 inches of metal. Be it a ladder or light niche, or even one of those skimmer bond plates.
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Ok. That just saves me money then..lol. Thanks. It was just a thought. I have a water bond inside my my pump, but I'd like to remove it if the pad resolves my problem. It doesn't allow the basket to sit in the pump correctly.
 
Your gonna have to spend some time doing tests and working towards sourcing the issue. I wonder if there are any electricians in your area that know how to do detective work. If you were anywhere near me I'd come out myself. An electrical engineer usually understands this very well in general and can apply principle in many situations.
Run the basic tests mike shows and what he told you and report back. Just make some time and get it done
 
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jimmythegreek said:
Your gonna have to spend some time doing tests and working towards sourcing the issue. I wonder if there are any electricians in your area that know how to do detective work. If you were anywhere near me I'd come out myself. An electrical engineer usually understands this very well in general and can apply principle in many situations.
Run the basic tests mike shows and what he told you and report back. Just make some time and get it done
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Oh I spent time doing many, many tests...lol. There are 0 electricians in this area that I trust working on my pool. I have hired "pool" electricians from every local installer around my area and they all told me the same things which, after reading here and talking with you guys, were wrong. I tried getting in touch with some electrical engineers in the area but getting them to actually come out and help and that has not happened yet. One would actually answer questions and give me things to do but none of his solutions actually worked. I told Mike I'm willing to do whatever he tells me because this has dragged on for way too long. He says there is only a need to run this one test that I am going to do this weekend.


JamesW said:
Almost 6 years with the same problem.

Hopefully, we're somewhere near the end.
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Most of that is waiting on qualified (or so I thought) electricians to come out and test and help me. They would tell me, "yeah, I can come out in 2 weeks." 5 weeks later and they still haven't shown up. I call and remind them and they come out the next week, tell me incorrect information. I move on to the next, and the cycle continues. Then I was told to get with the state inspector. Wow was that a hold up. I have spent more time waiting on this guy that anyone. And the problem with using him is, he will tell me to do this or do that and give him the results. I will immediately do what he tells me and report back and then I get "Ok, I'll take this info and do some research and talk with a colleague who knows this stuff in and out and get back with you. Don't do anything else until you hear from me." 2 months later I have to call him to remind him who I am and refresh his memory...EVERY time. This has been the MOST frustrating process I have ever been through. One of the worst decisions of my life was buying this pool. But I'm invested now and will see it to the end. What I have found along this path is the amount of unqualified people out here installing pools and putting so many people's lives in danger (or I think they are judging by their knowledge on the subject and the codes) is just astounding! It may not be like this in all other areas (because you guys are obviously very knowledgeable) but in my area, this hurts the pool industry reputation tremendously.

So I know the 6 years sounds like it has been all me dragging my feet, but I am no electrician or expert on the matter and could only do what I was told for the most part. Part of that time was frustration which led me to just stop even working on it period. And some of it has been prolonging the inevitable of paying 10k + to have the concrete replaced. Trust me...if it wasn't for my little girl being born, that useless hole would have been filled and a shop built on top of it. But I promised her that I would get it fixed this year no matter what and that's what I plan on doing. I have already scheduled having the concrete replaced with the proper bonding, just to get it on the books.

I apologize if this post has taken up space for so many years and you guys are getting tired of seeing it but I feel the need to continually update it because the fact is, there are many out there experiencing the same issue I am . There have been 4 or 5 in my area that had the issue. Some were easier fixes than others. Some were even resolved incorrectly but it just happen to have stopped the shock.

So I just ask for patience as I see this to the end. I have no other knowledgeable people to vent to. You guys have helped me a ton.
 
No need to apologize. It happens way too often that someone fails to update a thread (and that goes for the entire internet) and those who had interest are left hanging indefinitely. I really appreciate your dedication to solving this issue. I must also say that I am beyond amazed that you are in direct contact with Mr Holt.
 
TN94z said:
I have a water bond inside my my pump, but I'd like to remove it if the pad resolves my problem. It doesn't allow the basket to sit in the pump correctly.
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What exactly do you have as a water bond inside your pump? Is it at least 9 square inches of metal? That doesn't seem like the best / most effective place to have the water bond. If you lose prime for example, your water bond isn't working. I could be wrong but that might be something to address as well. Just thinking out loud.
 
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borjis said:
What exactly do you have as a water bond inside your pump? Is it at least 9 square inches of metal? That doesn't seem like the best / most effective place to have the water bond. If you lose prime for example, your water bond isn't working. I could be wrong but that might be something to address as well. Just thinking out loud.
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It's sold as a water bonding device. This is in addition to my ladder and light niche' obviously, but I bought it during testing of various things trying to resolve this issue.

It is basically a coiled wire, probably 3-4 coils that runs outside of the pump and attaches to your bond wire. Like I said, it was purchased to aid in resolving the problem for testing. It's somewhere in this thread. It was suggested here. I agree. When the pump is off, it really serves no purpose
 
borjis said:
Right on.
Hope you find the culprit soon.
I can't imagine how frustrating this must be.
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Thanks. I feel like once I replace the concrete with a properly installed bonding grid, my issue will be resolved. I haven't spoken with Mike again because it's been raining like crazy here and I don't want to stand out in the rain to do the test..lol. But I think it's clearing up for the next few days. It has been very frustrating!
 

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Are you prepared to keep your sanity if after replacing the deck and you still have the same issues ? Let me explain my thoughts please. I have read these post as it came on here but have forgotten a lot of it now. Please note that you have to Bond the rebar or wire mesh BECAUSE it is there and it is made from a conductive material. It is there to strengthen the cement etc and "not for a pool bonding object". It, like all metal items used in and around our homes has to be bonded or to a ground. ( Not to be mixed, but that's another long story. ) Gas pipes, electrical boxes, metal water pipes, the metal tracks in suspended ceilings, metal studs used on inside walls, the list goes on. So please remember that your new metal that is buried in your new deck will have to be bonded because it is metal and because it is there. It may not fix your problem. In order to work as a ONE BOND and only a ONE BOND for an extended time it will have to be welded and NOT just wire wrapped to each other or you will be setting up a bunch of new different electrical potentials. Different potential is your issue now as what you feel as a shock it the difference between the two.
 
1Sammy said:
Are you prepared to keep your sanity if after replacing the deck and you still have the same issues ? Let me explain my thoughts please. I have read these post as it came on here but have forgotten a lot of it now. Please note that you have to Bond the rebar or wire mesh BECAUSE it is there and it is made from a conductive material. It is there to strengthen the cement etc and "not for a pool bonding object". It, like all metal items used in and around our homes has to be bonded or to a ground. ( Not to be mixed, but that's another long story. ) Gas pipes, electrical boxes, metal water pipes, the metal tracks in suspended ceilings, metal studs used on inside walls, the list goes on. So please remember that your new metal that is buried in your new deck will have to be bonded because it is metal and because it is there. It may not fix your problem. In order to work as a ONE BOND and only a ONE BOND for an extended time it will have to be welded and NOT just wire wrapped to each other or you will be setting up a bunch of new different electrical potentials. Different potential is your issue now as what you feel as a shock it the difference between the two.
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I will probably blow the pool up if this does not fix it. I completely understand your thought process here. So let me ask this question, if the concrete pad that is there now has no wire mesh and no rebar and the one wire that attaches to the pool walls was just laying in the dirt (or even pushed up against the pool wall when the dirt was being leveled), is the concrete bonded which would make it the same potential as everything else within the pool system? I agree there is for sure a difference in potential here. I currently have a water bond inside my pump. In the past, I have attached a number 8 wire to my bonding wire (the loop everything else is attached to) and then to a big copper bar and dropped it in the water, and we could still feel the shock. I just don't know what else to do at this point other than rip the concrete up and properly bond it with wire mess and the bonding wire connections.

The only other thing I know I could do is bust the concrete up around a skimmer and install the skimmer bonding kit mentioned above and see if that helps....just in case the one in my pump is not sufficient.

I will say this as well too, yes busting the concrete up is mainly to try and resolve this problem, BUT...we also have cosmetic reasons for doing it. The ground underneath has settled in places which has caused the concrete to be higher in some places than others, our steps have settled some and are not level now, and we are replacing the brick coping with aluminum because the brick coping is just a pain in the butt.
 
JamesW said:
Have you done any tests?
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Oh yeah...you would have to read through the thread but we have done test after test after test on this issue. I have even been talking with Mike Holt about it. But yeah, there is no way I would begin this process by spending the money to tear the concrete up without trying to resolve it with a cheaper route
 
Concrete do not need to be bonded as it is non metallic. The wire in the ground being metallic needs to be on the bond as well as the metal walls of the pool. The BIG trick is for all metallic items to be on the same bond. IF the connection point becomes broken or corroded then you have 2 bonds,, oh oh, trouble. Ever see a battery lug on your car / truck being tight but was not making a good enough connection to pass the correct amount of current to turn over the starter. I'm sure you have. That has a high current draw and you would think it would weld / bond to each other but it surely do not. Therefore such low low voltages do not have a chance of staying on the same bond / potential unless welded or bolted together when clean and treated to remain in such a condition.
Once you lay this new pad i know your first step is to see if you can shock yourself, lol.... You may not as the cement is full of moisture and making everything one bond. Give it time to dry out all the way through and see what happens. Not sure how long that takes to happen. Good luck to you and remember how nice it will look after.
 

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