A slight "shock"

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TN94z said:
So where does the bond wire go after the pump assuming the pump is the last thing in the chain?
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If your pump is the last thing in the chain, then the bond wire ends there.

In my setup the heater is last in the chain. I have the bond wire go THROUGH the bonding lug on the pump motor,
then it is routed to the heater. The bond wire ends at the bond lug on the heater.
 
borjis said:
If your pump is the last thing in the chain, then the bond wire ends there.

In my setup the heater is last in the chain. I have the bond wire go THROUGH the bonding lug on the pump motor,
then it is routed to the heater. The bond wire ends at the bond lug on the heater.
Click to expand...


That's what I was thinking. I was asking because mine leaves the pump and then goes to the sub panel to a ground bar inside. I was thinking it had to be completely separate from the electrical.
 
Check out this video from Mike Holt. If you can rig up a similar device, you can check the bonding of everything.

In addition, I would check the voltage from the pool water to various remote reference points.

Stick a screwdriver in the ground about 50 feet from the pool and then check the voltage in the water at various points in the water to see if it's the same or variable.

Then select a new location 50 feet from the pool and do it again.

Do this at 4 points around the pool and record the voltages on a diagram.

This might help identify the source of the problem.

In part of the video (17:00), Mike drops a live wire in the pool and there is 10 amps flowing, even though the pool is bonded. As he measures the voltage, it increases near the source.


Also, disconnect the bond wire from the pump and check ac voltage, current and frequency and dc voltage and current between the bond wire and the pump.
 
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do as james suggests thats a great start and great video from mike (i reference his pool pdf alot its very thorough) Not sure about your juristiction but Ive never seen an inspector "work" on a pool. I beleive he is going to help you go in the right direction but dont put your eggs in his basket for now keep on this. I also feel you should disconnect the bond wire in your sub panel. Only because I dont know what type of main panel ground you have and my theory is that its possible the bonding is sucking up stray voltage in front of the main ground causing this to be worst. As James said the bond and ground touch in a few places usually, but in your case of playing detective every less point is better in my eyes. I think you really need to have the meter pulled ASAP and start with a baseline of is it from your house or a neighbor/grid issue. that would be a huge step in right direction. And even then having the nuetral connected could still tie voltage to the ground in the main so have your buddy seperate you completely and run some tests quickly, should take 5 minutes to figure out a baseline
 
I found the 10 amps with the live wire interesting because it means that 1,200 watts is being used. That power is heating the water and ground as it travels.

It also shows that voltage gradients can be created under certain conditions.

Maybe there's a wire underground that's saturated with ground water and it's creating a current flow through the bonding grid?
 
JamesW said:
I found the 10 amps with the live wire interesting because it means that 1,200 watts is being used. That power is heating the water and ground as it travels.

It also shows that voltage gradients can be created under certain conditions.

Maybe there's a wire underground that's saturated with ground water and it's creating a current flow through the bonding grid?
Click to expand...

Yes, and the way I think it was 6 amps flowing through the bonding wire and 4 amps flowing through the pool structure to earth. It shows how electricity flows in many directions even when you are trying to keep it on a designed path.

Local utility service can have electricity leaking from any number of places. The electrical grid is very leaky. Most of the time it just leaks to ground and no one knows until something fails.
 
JamesW said:
Check out this video from Mike Holt. If you can rig up a similar device, you can check the bonding of everything.

In addition, I would check the voltage from the pool water to various remote reference points.

Stick a screwdriver in the ground about 50 feet from the pool and then check the voltage in the water at various points in the water to see if it's the same or variable.

Then select a new location 50 feet from the pool and do it again.

Do this at 4 points around the pool and record the voltages on a diagram.

This might help identify the source of the problem.

In part of the video (17:00), Mike drops a live wire in the pool and there is 10 amps flowing, even though the pool is bonded. As he measures the voltage, it increases near the source.


Also, disconnect the bond wire from the pump and check ac voltage, current and frequency and dc voltage and current between the bond wire and the pump.
Click to expand...

Can this test be done with 24awg wire? I ask because I have a ton of that stuff laying around
 

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Here is another test procedure that you can try to see if it tells us anything.

Select about 10 test points around the pool about 10 feet from the pool. Stick a metal rod into the ground at the selected spots. Pour a gallon of pool water on each spot to increase conductivity.

Draw everything on a diagram. Measure AC voltage, current and frequency and DC voltage and current from each test point to the pool water. Document the readings from each test point.

If the voltage is significantly higher from a specific test, that could indicate a direction for the source.

Testing for frequency is important to help identify the source.

If any test point has a significantly higher voltage, note any power equipment, transformers, power lines, gas lines, telephone lines, cable wires etc. near the test point.

You might have to call the utility marking service to have any lines marked.

If no test point has a significantly higher voltage or current, maybe do the test again with the test points at 20 feet from the pool.

Make sure that you use a really good “True RMS” multimeter for best results.
 
JamesW said:
Here is another test procedure that you can try to see if it tells us anything.

Select about 10 test points around the pool about 10 feet from the pool. Stick a metal rod into the ground at the selected spots. Pour a gallon of pool water on each spot to increase conductivity.

Draw everything on a diagram. Measure AC voltage, current and frequency and DC voltage and current from each test point to the pool water. Document the readings from each test point.

If the voltage is significantly higher from a specific test, that could indicate a direction for the source.

Testing for frequency is important to help identify the source.

If any test point has a significantly higher voltage, note any power equipment, transformers, power lines, gas lines, telephone lines, cable wires etc. near the test point.

You might have to call the utility marking service to have any lines marked.

If no test point has a significantly higher voltage or current, maybe do the test again with the test points at 20 feet from the pool.

Make sure that you use a really good “True RMS” multimeter for best results.
Click to expand...


Going to update this post since I plan on running the tests above this weekend.
So life has been busy and I haven't done these tests yet. I am going to make that happen this weekend. I have tried to incorporate our state inspector who assured me he would help get this resolved. I haven't heard from him in months. SO I went ahead and got a quote from my concrete guy. To get the concrete replaced, wire mesh and new bonding wire, replace the coping with aluminum (because we cannot stand the brick), and fix an issue with our steps, is going to cost us about 12k. This really worries me because what if I spend this 12 for all of this and the problem is still there?
 
I began watching Mike's videos yesterday and just thought I would email him with my issue for the heck of it. He promptly returned my phone call and gave me one test to run which will hopefully lead us to a solution. He believes he already knows the outcome but wants me to do this one test first. VERY, VERY nice guy to talk with and listened to every word I had to say.
 
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I feel like I have done the test before but I have done so many. He wants me to attach a wire to the pump motor and then attach to a piece of metal that I am going to drop into the water. He wants me to pull it in and out of the water to see if it makes any difference in when we feel the shock. He stated that it will tell him whether or not to bust the deck up. Initially, his immediate response was bust the deck up, add wire mesh, and bond it as if it's a brand new install. Then I told him it was a polymer walled pool with vinyl liner and that's when he told me we needed to run this test first. He actually said that I was the first person he has talked with that did not get angry about his suggestions and try and go round and round with him and was actually willing to listen to everything he had to say.
 
Ok, thanks for sharing your experience with everyone.

Every bit of information helps us understand this complicated situation.

It's really one of the most difficult things to deal with since the source can be hard to determine.

Another test you can do is to run a wire from the pump bond wire to near the pool and measure the voltage and frequency between the pump bond wire and the water.
 
JamesW said:
Ok, thanks for sharing your experience with everyone.

Every bit of information helps us understand this complicated situation.

It's really one of the most difficult things to deal with since the source can be hard to determine.

Another test you can do is to run a wire from the pump bond wire to near the pool and measure the voltage and frequency between the pump bond wire and the water.
Click to expand...
Will do. I'll report back my findings
 
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How hard would it be to replace the light niche'? Or can you? I am thinking about, since I'm likely going to be tearing the deck up, going with a polymer ladder and maybe a plastic light niche' just to get all metal out of my pool water.

Waste of money or would this make it safer?
 
TN94z said:
How hard would it be to replace the light niche'? Or can you? I am thinking about, since I'm likely going to be tearing the deck up, going with a polymer ladder and maybe a plastic light niche' just to get all metal out of my pool water.

Waste of money or would this make it safer?
Click to expand...

That would make it less safe. The water needs to be bonded with at least 9 inches of metal. Be it a ladder or light niche, or even one of those skimmer bond plates.
 

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