2005 Sundance 850 Marin pump 1 function questions & other small issues

[AvockAdoo]

Hey all - first time poster here. I have done quite a bit of scanning, and I cant find the answer to my question so I figured I'd start here.

I am new to this 2005 Sundance - picked it up for free in Denver "working" but leaking a bit. Got the leak fixed with a new pump fitting, but now I've got a function question. List of things I've done/questions below

1. The ozone generator trips my breaker every time. I unplugged it, everything is fine and I'm fully heated up.

2. The circ pump needed to be replaced - I replaced it, that got things heating.

3. When I hit the Pump 2 button, they fire right up. When I hit Pump 1, I hear a click, then nothing happens for a while, about two minutes later I hear another "click" and the pump turns on - seemingly without struggle. Note also the turbine spins VERY easily with a pen pushing on the fans - indicating the bearings are at least good. (Obviously tried this with power disconnected). All connections look solid to me too.

4. This morning everything was good to go, I checked the spa an hour later, the breaker had tripped. Flipped it back on - good to go.

Now, my question: Should Pump 1 also fire up straight away? Do I have a pump thats on its way out? Fine if it is, just want to get it replaced before I spend time away from home - I wouldnt want the tub to freeze up in the cold here (denver). I'm wondering if my issues 3 & 4 are related or not.


From my research, typically its the heating element that blows the breaker. My heater *seems* fine, but I'm not positive on when it was last replaced. So maybe the breaker trip is related to that?

I'm a big DIY guy, mechanical engineer with a background in various car repair experience from oil changes to transmission swaps - so I feel fairly confident in tackling hot tub repair, with the proper advice from a well known forum.

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[AvockAdoo]

Originally posted this in the wrong thread - hopefully somebody in this one can help me out!

 

[cranbiz]

The ozone generator is probably shot. They don't last more than 3-5 years.

Pumps should run when turned on. Pump 2 does this, pump 1 does not. A quick test will be to reverse the motors for pump 1&2 as they should both be single speed pumps. Does the problem follow the pump? If it follows the pump, you have a failing pump in some way. Could be the start or the run capacitor too. If the problem doesn't follow the pump, it's probably relay that is going bad. Those can be replaced if you have soldering skills. If you don't an electronics repair guy should be able to replace them. Relays run $10-$15 each on Amazon.

You can check the heater if you are concerned but I suspect the pump caused the breaker to trip. The heater should ohm out to between 9-14 ohms if it's good. The fact that it's heating means it's probably good. However, if you find out the pump relay is intermittent, swap out all the relays as they all will have terminals that have arc burns on them. It's a fact of life with relays that switch high current. They will arc every time contact is broken. Eventually the contact gets pitted and carboned up or is welded together.

Was a cleaning cycle run between the times you checked the tub? Both pumps will be cycled and that could explain the tripped breaker if pump 1 or it's relay is going bad.

 

[AvockAdoo]

I unplugged the ozone generator for now because it was causing an instant breaker trip. I'm planning on replacing it, but there's mixed reviews online of whether or not it would be worth it, or just run with it "deleted"

Pump 1 is a two-speed pump, and Pump 2 is one speed. So I dont think I can do a pump-swap to check that unfortunately.

I'm also leaning away from the heater at this time - It seems to be functioning properly.

Its been good for 24 hours with no trip, presumably its been running the cleaning cycle 4x/day.

Also some more information on the Pump 1 situation. Last night when I was sitting in it I pressed the button twice and it fired right up, at low speed. Two more pushes (off, then back on one push) and it went to high speed. Also, the pump seems to get fairly warm to the touch before it starts operating. Another clue leading me to think maybe the pump is going out.

Wondering if maybe the previous owner wired the pump backward? I think it would be possible to check without removing the pump, but I havent dug into that yet.

I dont have much for soldering skills, but I'm generally comfortable learning things so maybe youtube university could help me out, or a friend who knows what they're doing.

Thanks for your response cranbiz, I appreciate it!

 

[RDspaguy]

I'd guess it's the start capacitor going out. Does it hum while delayed?
Switch high and low speeds and see if the delay disappears with 1 press of the button.
Test voltage to the pump when delayed. You might need a helper to press buttons.
Check pump connections for burns/loose terminals.

 

[AvockAdoo]

Its hums right at the start and then quits, but I think the hum is coming from the board, not the motor. Almost sounds like a compressor airing up for 1-2 seconds and then it quits. Then it doesnt make any more sounds until it just starts up.

Another spa technician thinks its the relays sticking, so I have replacement relays on order and am thinking I'll try my hand at de-solder & soldering new ones on. I have limited solder experience with a handheld gun, but I think I'm ready to try the tabletop version. Worst case scenario I end up ordering a new panel, but soldering through the holes in the board seems pretty straight forward.

Where is the start capacitor? Is that on the main board as well? Or is that a capacitor built into the motor? The pump connections seem good - no visible burns either.

I really appreciate the help. This has been a very fun & very rewarding project for me! All the while, the spa is still working albeit not PERFECTLY, but if I throw enough money & time at it I'll get it there

 

[AvockAdoo]

A bit more information here - pump 1 on level 1: 118V, pump 1 level 2: 118V (this is across the pump 1 connection wires). With the pump OFF I am still getting .5V across the pump wires. I think the other tech may be onto something with a relay sticking, but I am definitely open to any and all advice so I can get this thing operating properly!

 

[RDspaguy]

Another spa technician thinks its the relays sticking, so I have replacement relays on order and am thinking I'll try my hand at de-solder & soldering new ones on

And it may be. But you get one chance to overheat one of those solder points and then you're buying a new board. Try my suggestion first, as it costs you nothing but time to find out, and will confirm or refute the relay as the cause. Right now you're guessing.

Where is the start capacitor?

On the motor, either under a small cover on the outside or under the back cover. I am not suggesting you buy one, but test to confirm before you buy anything.

the other tech may be onto something with a relay sticking

I doubt it. Relays stick all the time, but do not typically cause this behavior when they do. Both high and low on at the same time will cause a loud buzz/hum for a second, then a loud click as the thermal cutout opens. After a minute to cool, it resets. But if a relay is welded closed, then it's ALWAYS ON. Your pump would only turn off when it buzzed, running constantly on whichever speed is stuck. If stuck open, you can see intermittent operation, but rarely a predictable delay, it either works or it doesn't.
A failing capacitor (think of it as a battery that gives the motor that extra boost it needs to overcome inertia and start) can cause a delay (with a buzz until it starts, but much quieter than with a stuck relay) or prevent start-up entirely on low, but start fine on high because high has more power from the coil and doesn't need the capacitor to start.
By switching high and low speed wires at the board you can test your relay theory. If it's a relay, high speed will delay just like low speed did when switched around. Likewise by testing voltage; no delay on voltage, no stuck relay. Until you do that, you're just throwing parts at it hoping something works.
But what do I know? I've only been fixing spas for a living for 26 years. Have fun with your solder project.

 

[AvockAdoo]

And it may be. But you get one chance to overheat one of those solder points and then you're buying a new board. Try my suggestion first, as it costs you nothing but time to find out, and will confirm or refute the relay as the cause. Right now you're guessing.


On the motor, either under a small cover on the outside or under the back cover. I am not suggesting you buy one, but test to confirm before you buy anything.


I doubt it. Relays stick all the time, but do not typically cause this behavior when they do. Both high and low on at the same time will cause a loud buzz/hum for a second, then a loud click as the thermal cutout opens. After a minute to cool, it resets. But if a relay is welded closed, then it's ALWAYS ON. Your pump would only turn off when it buzzed, running constantly on whichever speed is stuck. If stuck open, you can see intermittent operation, but rarely a predictable delay, it either works or it doesn't.
A failing capacitor (think of it as a battery that gives the motor that extra boost it needs to overcome inertia and start) can cause a delay (with a buzz until it starts, but much quieter than with a stuck relay) or prevent start-up entirely on low, but start fine on high because high has more power from the coil and doesn't need the capacitor to start.
By switching high and low speed wires at the board you can test your relay theory. If it's a relay, high speed will delay just like low speed did when switched around. Likewise by testing voltage; no delay on voltage, no stuck relay. Until you do that, you're just throwing parts at it hoping something works.
But what do I know? I've only been fixing spas for a living for 26 years. Have fun with your solder project.

I like your opinion the best! I'll swap the high & low speed wires and see what happens there. I dont want to mess with the board if I dont have to, and a new start capacitor is even cheaper than a relay replacement project.

What would I do to test the motor start capacitor?

The current flow of events is: 1 push, click, hum, hum stops with click, no motion. 2nd push, click, no hum, no anything and about a minute or two the motor starts on "low" even though it "should" be on high speed (at least according to the top panel). Once in this state, if you double press pump I, it goes off, and then immediately into high mode (even though it should be on low), occasionally it will run like that for a full 20 mins, sometimes it kicks off in a matter of just a few minutes.

Your 26 years in spa care trump my less than 1 month by a mile, and I tend to trust a helping hand on a forum much more than a tech who's trying to sell me something.

Thanks again for your help - capacitor is my next "check point".

 

[RDspaguy]

1 push, click, hum, hum stops with click, no motion.

Thermal cut-out.

2nd push, click, no hum, no anything and about a minute or two the motor starts

Thermal cut-out reset.

motor starts on "low" even though it "should" be on high speed (at least according to the top panel).

??? Now it gets confusing.

Once in this state, if you double press pump I, it goes off, and then immediately into high mode (even though it should be on low),

Combined with the above, are you sure it's wired properly?

What would I do to test the motor start capacitor?

While there are a few "tricks", to accurately test a capacitor takes a special tester or multimeter that costs far more than a capacitor. If you can access the rear motor shaft, give it a spin manually while it's humming. If it start right up, it's likely the cap.
I'd suggest you disconnect the pump and test voltage at the pump connections on the board. Red to white is usually high speed, and black to white is low. This is not true for all controls, but is for the vast majority. Only one should read voltage at a time. If you leave the motor connected you will get a voltage reading on both back through the motor, so it's important to disconnect it first.
Edit.
I see it's a Sundance, so red is high and black is low, with white as common.
Also, Sundance is a 240v only spa, so you should not be reading 120v on anything unless testing to ground, which you should not do as it does not tell you anything useful except that it will shock you if you touch it.
Post pics of circuit board, wiring diagram, and pump terminals and diagram.

 

[AvockAdoo]

Thermal cut-out.


Thermal cut-out reset.


??? Now it gets confusing.


Combined with the above, are you sure it's wired properly?


While there are a few "tricks", to accurately test a capacitor takes a special tester or multimeter that costs far more than a capacitor. If you can access the rear motor shaft, give it a spin manually while it's humming. If it start right up, it's likely the cap.
I'd suggest you disconnect the pump and test voltage at the pump connections on the board. Red to white is usually high speed, and black to white is low. This is not true for all controls, but is for the vast majority. Only one should read voltage at a time. If you leave the motor connected you will get a voltage reading on both back through the motor, so it's important to disconnect it first.

I will double check the wiring - that I wouldnt know. If the previous owner replaced it and miswired it, that may be the case!

I will do all of that testing on Sunday - unfortunately that is the next time I'll be able to test things out!

I do have a multimeter - its this one: Commercial Electric Auto Ranging Multimeter 600V MMA-8301R - The Home Depot

Not sure if that one has the right modes to do the test that you're thinking of, but I will also try moving the motor shaft!

Thank you again for your insight - I appreciate it beyond measure!

 

[RDspaguy]

I will double check the wiring - that I wouldnt know. If the previous owner replaced it and miswired it, that may be the case!

I will do all of that testing on Sunday - unfortunately that is the next time I'll be able to test things out!

I do have a multimeter - its this one: Commercial Electric Auto Ranging Multimeter 600V MMA-8301R - The Home Depot

Not sure if that one has the right modes to do the test that you're thinking of, but I will also try moving the motor shaft!

Thank you again for your insight - I appreciate it beyond measure!

Read the edit to my post. I think you replied before I finished.

 

[AvockAdoo]

Read the edit to my post. I think you replied before I finished.

Here are the photos I currently have - back of the pump, and a photo of the board.

I will post a schematic photo on Sunday!

 

[RDspaguy]

I can't see the motor wiring enough to tell. It should be white on top, then red, then black on the bottom.
The capacitor is under the bump on top.
The motor shaft is in that hole on the back, probably a slotted or allen type.

 

[AvockAdoo]

I think the way the motor is wired currently is white, black, red, green. I just swapped the red & black at the logic board to check - I think it was wired backwards.

My thoughts - @RDspaguy please provide your analysis if you can! - is that the motor was wired wrong. Its now wired "correctly" but the colors are off. Something I will put a note on the panel for, or just fix when I get a moment. Once I flipped the wires at the logic board and powered it back up, everything seems to be working properly *as of now*.

My theory - I think what was happening is the pump was initially activating to "high speed" with the first press, and the spa controller was shutting it down because it was drawing too much power for what it "thought" low speed should draw. Then as you described before it would "cool down" and then start on Jet Level 2 on the screen, but low speed in reality.

One question I have now, is there anything else I should analyze for damage due to the wrong wiring?

Thanks so much RD - your help has saved me so much time & money, you have no idea!!

Update:

I sat in the this afternoon. It worked well, until the pump cut out again after a couple minutes at level 2. I am fairly sure at this point it was wired backwords. Everything "seems" right at first, 1 push level 1, 2 pushes level 2, but after it cut out it wouldnt reactivate this time. Is there a run capacitor? Does the start capacitor maybe act as both?

Doing testing on the board here this afternoon, I will post the results.

 

[RDspaguy]

Having it wired backward like that had the pump running high speed for the full filter cycle, which may have damaged it.

the spa controller was shutting it down because it was drawing too much power for what it "thought" low speed should draw.

Nope. It does not test amps, it is fused and would blow the fuse if over-amping. If it shut's off with power to it, it's the thermal cutoff.

there a run capacitor?

Maybe. Are there 2 "bumps" on the side?

I will say that it may have been intentionally miswired to get it through an inspection or show the buyer it runs, when it was already damaged. Sawdust in the transmission kind of thing. It appears to have a sizeable dent near the back, is that right?
Pull the capacitor and post a pic of the wire end and label.
It could also be a sticking centrifugal switch or start switch, which require dismantling the rear of the motor to access. You can sometimes get to the centrifugal switch with a skinny screwdriver through the rear vents to actuate it manually. Obviously, do not do this while it is on.

 

[AvockAdoo]

Having it wired backward like that had the pump running high speed for the full filter cycle, which may have damaged it.


Nope. It does not test amps, it is fused and would blow the fuse if over-amping. If it shut's off with power to it, it's the thermal cutoff.


Maybe. Are there 2 "bumps" on the side?

I will say that it may have been intentionally miswired to get it through an inspection or show the buyer it runs, when it was already damaged. Sawdust in the transmission kind of thing. It appears to have a sizeable dent near the back, is that right?
Pull the capacitor and post a pic of the wire end and label.
It could also be a sticking centrifugal switch or start switch, which require dismantling the rear of the motor to access. You can sometimes get to the centrifugal switch with a skinny screwdriver through the rear vents to actuate it manually. Obviously, do not do this while it is on.

All of that sounds good! I will pull that thing and take photos in the morning.

A few notes and questions:

Miswiring: The guy said it was at his house when he moved in, used it for 8 years and when it leaked again this year he decided he didnt want to fix on it anymore. I think he replaced the pump, so maybe he just made the mistake and never fixed it? It was drained when I picked it up (for free) and it had been drained for about a week at that point.

Would the catch-all fix here be a new motor? I'm a fairly handy DIY person - at least when it comes to cars & electronics. I've done some pretty in depth surgery to cars, so I feel pretty comfortable with removing, replacing & rewiring a hot tup pump. How much money would I be saving to rebuild all of these parts rather than just a new motor?

Also, while I've got your attention, thoughts on LX pumps? Are they good quality or would it be more worthwhile to just get a new Sundance (whatever company they use OEM) - that being if it comes to that.

 

[RDspaguy]

Maybe. Thermal cutout can be a problem with the motor, but can also result from other factors, such as flow restrictions and oversized pumps. From here I can't be 100% sure, but it is likely the pump.
As a tech, I test EVERYTHING and know 100% before buying parts, since if I'm wrong I'm stuck with the parts and losing money. Test voltages and relays, check for flow restrictions (obstructions, broken valves, etc.), test amp draw on the motor (high and low speed), test motor speeds independently, check capacitor and centrifugal switch, etc.
Match voltage and amp draw of the motor, as well as fitting size, location, and orientation of the pump. Sundance/Jacuzzi often uses a proprietary 45 degree mounted pump and requires purchase of oem or compatible, as standard pumps/motors will not work.