IC60 Measuring Salt Level Often

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Dirk said:
That's interesting. First, what is "OCP?"
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Sorry. OCP - Outdoor Control Panel...

Dirk said:
The IpH doesn't communicate with the pool automation controller (IntelliCenter or EasyTouch), but if the automation controller (AC) calls for zero SWG output, the IpH interprets that, by shutting down acid injection. Pentair calls that a safety feature. Also, if an AC is present, the IpH doesn't control the output settings of the IC, the AC does. With no AC, the IpH controls the output settings of the IC.

So I guess when the IpH starts its run, it disconnects the IC from the AC (or otherwise intercepts the communication, perhaps that's what the IpH relay you referred to is doing) and sets the IC output to zero. But then it must ignore this zero setting (which would otherwise shutdown acid injection) and inject anyway.

No point to that, just adding to the info...
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Dirk
You are correct. There is no RS-485 comm traffic or "packets" sent between the IpH and the OCP. I hope I did not give that impression above. ;)
Here are the steps as I understand them. Somewhat simplified here for brevity.

1. Just before acid dosing by IpH, IpH checks IntelliChlor. The IpH panel even tells you that. This part never made sense to me but whatever.
2. RS-485 communications between IntelliChlor and the OCP are disconnected by the DPDT relay (D+/D-).
3. At that point, the little RS485 transceiver located at U5 on the IpH controller board takes over 485 comms with the IntelliChlor and sends it the following commands "Set Control to null (Set Control [0] => [1])" and "set Output to 0" Set Output [17] => [18]
4. Acid dosing then begins.
5. When acid dosing is complete, the DPDT relay closes resulting in an RS-485 "re-connect" between the OCP and the IntelliChlor and immediately the OCP sends a Set Control 1 command and the applicable Set Output command.

The point here is that during acid dosing, there are no 485 comm between the OCP and IntelliChlor. That line of communications has been disconnected by the DPDT relay and remains disconnected during the entire time that the acid dosing event is taking place.

Think of that little RS485 transceiver located on the IpH controller board as just another RS485 bus. The only time that particular bus becomes active is after the relay cuts off 485 comms between the OCP and the IntelliChlor.

That is how I understand it to all work now in a nutshell.
r.
 
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Clearly a lot of the control architecture seems redundant or wasteful but that’s a legacy issue - all of these devices (IC, IpH, iChem, etc) were designed to operate independent of an automation system. So there are lots of on-board controls that need to be bypassed in order for everything to operate properly. One could imagine a much less complex architecture utilizing an Intellicenter to orchestrate everything BUT then you would force a pool owner to buy everything together (SWG, Acid dosing, automation, etc). For a lot of people, that’s cost prohibitive and limits your market of available customers.
 
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I commend Pentair (shocker!) that they engineered both stand-alone, IntellipH control and automation control of the IntelliChlor. (Even if the stand-alone control is hobbled compared to the other options.) I wish they had done the same with the IntellipH. I have guessed before here that they didn't bother to do that, so that they could better sell their IntelliChem products, but who knows.

It's frustrating for me (and maybe for MyAZPool and others) because we now live in a world where we can customize to the tiniest detail many of our modern conveniences (HA, phone, computer, TV, audio). Or modify those conveniences with third-party options. To our hearts' content. But not our pool gear. 😢
 
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Just hope that pool equipment manufacturers don’t go to a “subscription based” model of manufacturing like everything else in the world .... “Oh, you want a variable speed pump ? Here ya go .... that’ll be $1000. Oh, you want more than 2 speeds and rs485 comms? Well, $19.99/month we’ll be happy to unlock that feature for you .... and you’ll get our nifty monthly newsletter as well...”
 
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I couldn't agree more with @Dirk

My opinion is that the pool industry "big-3" will NEVER deliver a pool automation and sensor control system, that is "high-end", customizable, reliable and does everything advertised with quality and reliability. Instead, they will continue to meet the bare minimums and hope their customers don't complain too loudly. And they will continue to deliver automation and sensor control that is very basic and where most of the advertised "advanced" features don't deliver on expectations or just plain don't work as expected (software, sensors, component compatibility, flexibility, etc., etc.)

For the minority who have come to expect more out of their pool automation products like quality, reliability, compatibility and flexibility, there are only two solutions in my opinion.
1. Take a basic pool automation system and customize the devil out of it using high-end components/peripherals while utilizing and incorporating open-source, third party software for user interfaces.
2. For those few who have the skill sets, start from scratch and build a fully customizable pool automation and sensor control system using high-end components and design your own software.

Other than those two options, future pool owners who are considering automation should be prepared to experience first-hand, the plethora of pool automation disappointment and discontent that we see here everyday. In other words, either lower your expectations or be prepared for failings, frustration and disappointments. Because none of the big-3 will ever deliver on the promises made on their fancy brochures and websites when it comes to pool automation. They just don't care about customer satisfaction in this arena. Period...

And don't believe that what you read in their sales literature or in their other documents is what you will get in a high-end, user-friendly manner. Just ask IntelliCenter or ScreenLogic users how those Apple WatchIOS and Alexa Skills are working out. Or advanced lighting group features. Or how often the Pentair servers crash. I could write a book on failed Pentair promises and stated expectations that were never met. Actually, I think have. If I gather up all of my writings here on those very topics, it would fill volumes...

See what you have gone and done @Dirk LOL>> You got me all spun up like a top, just before Christmas.... :laughblue:

Okay, now I need to think about something "happy" instead. :p
r.
 
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JoyfulNoise said:
Just hope that pool equipment manufacturers don’t go to a “subscription based” model
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Oh geez. For as much as I LOATHE the subscription software model (as my company is now fully dependent on subscription-only software!), I never considered the possibility of that leaking over into hardware!

FAIR WARNING!! I'll just go on record here and now! :rant: If any companies try such a stunt, I will be forced to retaliate with an even more insidious effort than I put forth when software companies did it. Which is, you know, well, absolutely nothing. Just like the rest of the world... So... there... you've been warned!!
 
MyAZPool said:
I couldn't agree more with @Dirk

My opinion is that the pool industry "big-3" will NEVER deliver a pool automation and sensor control system, that is "high-end", customizable, reliable and does everything advertised with quality and reliability. Instead, they will continue to meet the bare minimums and hope their customers don't complain too loudly. And they will continue to deliver automation and sensor control that is very basic and where most of the advertised "advanced" features don't deliver on expectations or just plain don't work as expected (software, sensors, component compatibility, flexibility, etc., etc.)

For the minority who have come to expect more out of their pool automation products like quality, reliability, compatibility and flexibility, there are only two solutions in my opinion.
1. Take a basic pool automation system and customize the devil out of it using high-end components/peripherals while utilizing and incorporating open-source, third party software for user interfaces.
2. For those few who have the skill sets, start from scratch and build a fully customizable pool automation and sensor control system using high-end components and design your own software.

Other than those two options, future pool owners who are considering automation should be prepared to experience first-hand, the plethora of pool automation disappointment and discontent that we see here everyday. In other words, either lower your expectations or be prepared for failings, frustration and disappointments. Because none of the big-3 will ever deliver on the promises made on their fancy brochures and websites when it comes to pool automation. They just don't care about customer satisfaction in this arena. Period...

And don't believe that what you read in their sales literature or in their other documents is what you will get in a high-end, user-friendly manner. Just ask IntelliCenter or ScreenLogic users how those Apple WatchIOS and Alexa Skills are working out. Or advanced lighting group features. Or how often the Pentair servers crash. I could write a book on failed Pentair promises and stated expectations that were never met. Actually, I think have. If I gather up all of my writings here on those very topics, it would fill volumes...

See what you have gone and done @Dirk LOL>> You got me all spun up like a top, just before Christmas.... :laughblue:

Okay, now I need to think about something "happy" instead. :p
r.
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I scanned your post quickly, but I think I got the gist of it. What I caught was that you will be releasing a new "high-end" product that will solve all the things we don't like, and/or want, in pool automation, including a first-rate quality, reliable experience with full compatibilies and flexibility. And that it will work with Alexa and Apple products, and that it'll be ready before Christmas. That is great news!! I can't wait.

[Wow! That speed reading course is really paying off!]
 
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Dirk said:
I scanned your post quickly, but I think I got the gist of it. What I caught was that you will be releasing a new "high-end" product that will solve all the things we don't like, and/or want, in pool automation, including a first-rate quality, reliable experience with full compatibilies and flexibility. And that it will work with Alexa and Apple products, and that it'll be ready before Christmas. That is great news!! I can't wait.

[Wow! That speed reading course is really paying off!]
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:p Ha... I think you better re-read my post because you have definitely misinterpreted what I said LOL...
I'm not making any such promises. My last name is NOT Pentair...:mrgreen: so, I make no such claims...

But what I will say, is that if you want an automation system that does EXACTLY what you want it to do with the quality and reliablity that you demand, then you should probably build it yourself, because you won't find it on the commercial market otherwise... :thumleft:
r.
 
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... or .... just practice the TFP method of pool care since humans beings are the best control and automation system ever .... (and get a good test kit)
 
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While I certainly am not discouraging @MyAZPool's efforts to fully automate his pool (or at least the pH control), I wouldn't seek to do the same. Which is why I went with IC and IpH instead of the full IntelliChem setup. It sounds good "on paper," but the reality is, I can't trust systems like that to take over fully. And even if they did work well, I wouldn't be able to ignore the possibility of a system failure.

Because of how I run my setup, I really only need to test once a week. But I wouldn't be able to test any less with a fully automated system, because I wouldn't fully trust it. I'd still be testing once a week, to keep the system honest, so to speak. And then adjust as needed. Which is what I do now. As Matt points out, there really is no substitute for a good test kit and human oversight.
 
And that is exactly why I always recommend (and practice) performing manual testing using a TF100 and using the TFP method of pool care. I Love my TF100 :mrgreen: In fact, I love it so much, I made a beautiful home for it that I am very proud of. :laughblue:

Let's See Your Test Kit!

What!?!?? You are going to melt your pool with bleach! :laughblue: :laughblue: :laughblue: :laughblue:
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
 
MyAZPool said:
And that is exactly why I always recommend (and practice) performing manual testing using a TF100 and using the TFP method of pool care. I Love my TF100 :mrgreen: In fact, I love it so much, I made a beautiful home for it that I am very proud of. :laughblue:

Let's See Your Test Kit!

What!?!?? You are going to melt your pool with bleach! :laughblue: :laughblue: :laughblue: :laughblue:
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
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Just checked out your kit. No one can impugn your enthusiasm for testing!! That's for sure! 👍
 
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What you all need is a good pool boy that will test and clean the pool regularly and report results then await further instructions from you as you ponder the deeper meaning of the numbers you get .... I hear @Arizonarob has a pair of Speedos on and is willing to show up for work bright and early Christmas morning ... he’ll even wear his Rudolph themed speedos for an extra tip ...
 
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JoyfulNoise said:
What you all need is a good pool boy that will test and clean the pool regularly and report results then await further instructions from you as you ponder the deeper meaning of the numbers you get .... I hear @Arizonarob has a pair of Speedos on and is willing to show up for work bright and early Christmas morning ... he’ll even wear his Rudolph themed speedos for an extra tip ...
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Anybody care to know exactly how IntelliPh disables the IntelliChlor cell?
On your IntelliPh circuit board there is a little white DPDT relay. When the dosing pump is energized this relay severs the communication link from the outdoor control panel (OCP) and connects the comms to its own RS485 transceiver. It does this because the only comms that IntelliChlor understands regarding current power is an RS485 message that goes something like this.
[16,2,80,17][power level percentage][checksum,16,3] in decimal.

This message is broadcast from the OCP every 2 seconds or so. So IntelliPh has to stop the communication from the OCP reaching the IntelliChlor otherwise the OCP would continually turn it back on again. That DPDT relay switches the green and white wires to its own RS485 transceiver mounted about an inch or so from the outbound connector. These are the same D+/D- green/yellow bus wires you find on every comm port in the Pentair system. However, it is not enough to simply sever the communication link. IntelliPh must then act like it is your OCP by sending a series of messages to IntelliChlor. This sequence must repeat itself every few seconds or you could do something like unplug the cell and plug it back in to gain control over it. The conversation between IntelliPh and IntelliChlor is what you see below.
[16,2,80,0][0][98,16,3] --> Disable the control panel.
[16,2,0,1][0,0][19,16,3] --> IntelliChlor response
[16,2,80,17][0][130,16,3] --> Set the power output to 0.
[16,2,0,18][52,132][220,16,3] --> IntelliChlor response (52 represents the current salt level / 50 and 132 is a series of encoded status values). In this case it is reporting very low salt.

At the end of the dose it simply flips the DPDT relay back again and the messages from the OCP begin flowing again so it instantly goes back the the settings you had before. This restores the communications with IntelliChlor and the OCP is none the wiser. There is no message to simply turn the cell off. The most it knows is to set the power output to 0. Btw these are the same messages that are used for many of the other branded salt cells.

That's it. Its nothing magical, just IntelliPh pretending like you ran the power level down to 0 just like you would in IntelliTouch, EasyTouch, or IntelliCenter.
 
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