New Construction: Cathedral City CA

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Me in blue:

OK - I can't even talk about the run-a-round I got today from the pool/plumber guy. Maybe in a day or two (sorry).

Deep breaths.

I'm dosing the pool twice daily with 10% chlorine from home depot. The date on the box is 18200 which I believe is July 20th. Yesterday I took a sniff and the chlorine smell was extremely weak, our regular laundry bleach smells stronger. When I use pMath and check it 2 hours later, the dose has hit the mark of FC 7.0 but within 4-5 hours it's hovering at 3.5. My CYA was at 30 at first but increased to 40 a few days ago and remained at 40.

Well, date isn't everything. It's how they stored it and transported it, too. If it's been exposed to a lot of heat, it could be compromised. But if you got a correct FC level out of it at any point in time, then it's probably OK. Are you testing CC? Lets see if you have any lurking chlorine eaters. Maybe even do an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test if you're concerned about the amount of chlorine you're using. But it's hot and your pool is going to use chlorine. This is your first August, right? Maybe that's just what your pool needs.

I called Leslie's and they told be their liquid bleach was 12%, but when I got there the box said 10%. I was unsure about the 90% "Other Ingredients" so I did not buy it. When I got home I do see that the HD box said the same thing. So the price is almost twice as much at Leslie's, not labeled any stronger - but probably less deteriorated than HD's.

I think the 90% is water, but another here will have to confirm. You can't buy 100% LC, it's not stable.

I see Walmart carries 10% as well for about the same price as HD, I'm sure they do not store it outside - unfortunately all Walmart's near us are out of stock.

I know I have new pebble that's just 1 week old, but I'm dosing the pool twice day (total of about 100oz.) just to keep it between 7.5 or 7.2. Does that sound normal?

OK, I think you switched there from talking about chlorine to talking about acid, yes? Do whatcha gotta do. Trust the test kit and PoolMath. I like the sound of you checking and dosing twice a day. Keep it up if you can. Eventually your acid demand will come down. And in a few weeks you'll be on SWG, so your workload will diminish. Every pool is a little different. But now you are seeing, if I may say, why I was pushing you so to take this over, even during your first start up. You just can't maintain proper pool chemistry, especially in the first month of a plaster/pebble pool, by showing up once or twice a week. Now that you are doing it, it's getting done right. Good job!

I did see that Leslie's has 31% MA for about $6 a gallon. I think I'm going to switch to that.

I buy my acid from Leslie's, and sometimes chlorine, too. That's the two things they sell that makes me glad they're in business. If you buy often enough, they'll figure out you're not one to be bamboozled with their magic potions, so they'll leave you alone and just sell you what you ask for.

OH ... the plumber/pool guy (used to be their pool guy), questioned why they had not added salt yet. I said that the plaster was only a week old, he said well you just can't use the heater. I NEVER read anything about adding salt that soon.

And this is why I warned you about being adamant that no one else add anything to the pool. Period. They might mean well, but they could throw something in to "help you out" and mess up what you've accomplished. A pristine startup with nothing added to your pool that it doesn't need!!
 
Dirk said:
PVC is not rated for UV, and I’m thinking the sun has a lot to do with the failure of PVC valves (the handle on mine, which was exposed to the sun, cracked off right around the time it started leaking). Yours are like mine was: pipes painted, but not PVC valves and valve handles.
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There is no way the PB will change it - for my sanity I’m throwing in the towel on that and preparing to redo it when the problems start. I'm wondering if painting the handles might give a bit more protection and/or place something in front of those valves to block the sun.



scdaren said:
Do you have a Lowes? Their 10% has always worked well for me. For me that strong muriatic is awful, can't stand the fumes. The 14.5 muriatic doesn't bother me at all.
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Yes we do have a Lowes, if I recall, the one time I when to buy chlorine there its date code was older than HD. You comment regarding the fumes of 31%, does make me think about reconsidering. But I still might give it a try once to see how it effects me. I’ve never smelled anything with the 14.5%.



Dirk said:
Are you testing CC? Lets see if you have any lurking chlorine eaters. Maybe even do an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test if you're concerned about the amount of chlorine you're using. But it's hot and your pool is going to use chlorine. This is your first August, right? Maybe that’s just what your pool needs.
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YORK: Yes, CC remains zero. I did an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test last night and there was zero loss of chlorine - so that is good. This is our first August, and just must be what the pool needs.


Dirk said:
OK, I think you switched there from talking about chlorine to talking about acid, yes?
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YES

Dirk said:
Do whatcha gotta do. Trust the test kit and Pool Math. I like the sound of you checking and dosing twice a day. Keep it up if you can. Eventually your acid demand will come down. And in a few weeks you'll be on SWG, so your workload will diminish. Every pool is a little different. But now you are seeing, if I may say, why I was pushing you so to take this over, even during your first start up. You just can't maintain proper pool chemistry, especially in the first month of a plaster/pebble pool, by showing up once or twice a week. Now that you are doing it, it's getting done right. Good job!
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YORK: Taking over the startup is the best! The pool looks great every day. I brush twice daily, but see absolutely no plaster dust come up. Even after a strong wind came up one evening there was almost no sand/dirt on the bottom (brushed and vacuumed first thing that morning).


I’ll just keep testing the pH and dosing the MA twice daily. Last night it was 7.2 this morning it was 7.8. The pool is 7 days old, can I reduce the filter run time to less than 24 hrs now? Say 4hrs in the morning and 4 hours in the evening?





 
Reduce your pump speed to 1200 rpm and run it fewer hours if you wish. Especially if you have time of day pricing on electric. Be sure to run it an hour or so before you test pH and for at least an hour after you add acid.
 
There is no way the PB will change it - for my sanity I’m throwing in the towel on that and preparing to redo it when the problems start. I'm wondering if painting the handles might give a bit more protection and/or place something in front of those valves to block the sun.

It's a "pick your battles" kind of deal, for sure. The 2" valve is about 50 bucks, the smaller one probably fulfills the contract, your PB just ate thousands to redo your pool and you avoided what might have been a very costly court battle. Him replacing the valve(s) would be a good gesture for the trouble he's put you through, just as you letting it go is a good gesture for him being a stand up guy. I was just pointing out what to expect from the valves. Painting or otherwise blocking UV exposure to the valve body and handle seems prudent.

Yes we do have a Lowes, if I recall, the one time I when to buy chlorine there its date code was older than HD. You comment regarding the fumes of 31%, does make me think about reconsidering. But I still might give it a try once to see how it effects me. I’ve never smelled anything with the 14.5%.

You're mixing chlorine and acid there again, but it sounds like you have it straight in your head. The only thing I don't like about buying my LC from Leslie's is my local store's LC doesn't carry a date code. They keep it indoors where my Lowe's doesn't. Remember, it's code but also how they store it. With an SWG, it's only an issue in the winter, so heat should be less of a factor. I don't yet know how many months my SWG will be down this coming winter, I didn't start mine until 2018 spring. I'm hoping it's just a few months. Your SWG "off season" might be even less.

YORK: Yes, CC remains zero. I did an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test last night and there was zero loss of chlorine - so that is good. This is our first August, and just must be what the pool needs.

And isn't it cool to be able to figure that out and know that? Gotta love the TFP!! ;)

YORK: Taking over the startup is the best! The pool looks great every day. I brush twice daily, but see absolutely no plaster dust come up. Even after a strong wind came up one evening there was almost no sand/dirt on the bottom (brushed and vacuumed first thing that morning).

I’ll just keep testing the pH and dosing the MA twice daily. Last night it was 7.2 this morning it was 7.8. The pool is 7 days old, can I reduce the filter run time to less than 24 hrs now? Say 4hrs in the morning and 4 hours in the evening?

There will be different schools of thought on this. The NPC card calls for only 72 hours of continuous runtime. And to vacuum up any leftover plaster dust after the first week. So you're probably OK in that you've never seen any dust. Overkill is my standard MO, so I ran 24hrs much longer. I had a VS pump at the time, so I knew electricity would not be all that much, and the sure fire way I could know that I ran my pump every bit as much as my pool needed was to run it all the time. Like I said, overkill, but I'm not missin' the, what, $20 or $30 that assurance cost me...
 
Dirk said:
...Curious thing about the jets, especially why they are not staining the same. Does water puddle around them when they're on? And is that water only from the jet, and not from down below? A little test that comes to mind: place a layer of plastic over the jet (like even saran wrap), and cut out an opening for the jet. Tape the plastic to the jet. Turn it on? Does water puddle only on top of the plastic, and not below it? Other than testing to see if it's leaking from below, I got nuttin'. ...
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Well were back to the contractor asking for the final payment, without looking at the punch list they agreed to 3 months ago, one item on that list is one of the permits have not been signed off on. They say it has, but the last inspection in June clearly notes what needs to be done. Every time they look at the inspectors notes, they say they have done it (not too hard to look at all the outlets and see that only one has a GFCI, then the inspector noted that every one needed to have its own GFCI, or a GFCI breaker at the panel - which it does not.

But I digress. My post today is another item on the punch list that remains undone. I mentioned it here in May. It pertains to the leaking Desk Jets. We have 3, and each one puddles water around it long after the jets have been used. They replaced the worst one in May, and since then I keep telling them that there is still a problem with 2 or three of them.

One visit they said something about the possibility that the pressure may be too high, but on the next visit, they changed their reasoning to "it's just the water left in the pipes after we turn the jets off, and the heat during the day is just causing the water to expand and leak out. I told them it was more than a month since the last time we had the jets on - I find it hard to believe there could be that much water in the pipes after 30 days of temps above 90°.

There were so many battles at the time, I neglected to perform the test Dirk suggested in post #512. We're heading out just now, but will do what you suggested Dirk, to see if we can better identify if it is coming from the hole of the jet, or somewhere below that.

Does anyone have other suggestions of what might cause this?

Thanks, York
 
The GFI issues, that's easy. You need to be in possession of your copy of the permit, with an authorized signature from the inspector that the job if finaled. No need to get into the details with the PB, tell him you want that copy before you pay him. Period. And go through the punch list and remind him of the items. I'm not one to be too lenient on a contractor. Just because he's lost money on your job is no excuse to shirk his responsibility to the contract and to good workmanship. :blah:

512?!? 726?!? Yikes! Gotta go for a ride in the WayBack Machine... Oh, yah, try to figure out where the water is coming from. I think you're in for staining around that jet no matter what. I mentioned sealing it. Not sure how much that will ward off the inevitable. Would be nice to minimize the water leaking from it, though...
 
Do not pay until the punch list is done. We still haven’t paid our final invoice as the drain is not yet complete and it was on the contract. We also have a leak so that will need to be rectified one way or another before I cough up. Final payment is all I have to hold them accountable though they are not refusing to do these things they are just so slow.
 
Also, be sure you have all the lien releases from all the subs, if any were put in motion, before you settle up. I'm not exactly sure how the lien process works, but I think a sub can come after you with a lien if he never got paid, even after you've issued final payment.
 
bdavis466 said:
It's because the industry still doesn't recognize the relationship between chlorine and cya.

Just because the NPC is the supposed Authority for pool plaster doesn't necessarily mean that they use best practices. The bicarbonate startup is a perfect example of that and Kim Skinner has argued his case with them for many years and gotten nowhere even though it's backed by sound science and factual evidence.
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The industry does recognize the relationship, until CDC recognizes it - nobody will publish guidelines that defy a health code. That’s a tremendous liability in the event of an incident.
 

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Dirk said:
Also, be sure you have all the lien releases from all the subs, if any were put in motion, before you settle up. ...
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Hi Dirk, thanks for thinking about that. I did not put anything in the contract about receiving lien releases (my bad). You mention "if any were put in motion". What if the builder says they paid all the subs, and none of the subs put a lien in "motion"?

I'm a bit nervous about putting this on my punch list until more things are done. What do you think about this form I found on www.cslb.ca.gov?

I'm not clear as to who should be listed above "Your Customer" "Owner" and I assume "Job Description" is our home address.
unconditional-lien-release-form pg5.jpg
 
Uhg, that contractors test was toooo long ago! I thought I remember that part of the sub's responsibility was to file something in advance, so that contractor and owner were notified that a sub could file a lien, and that without doing so he can't just come out of nowhere with a claim. But I can't be sure about that, and I got lost pretty quick on that ca.gov page. Give a call to the Contractor's State License Board to see if someone there can help you. Otherwise, you're just taking the contractor's word that all his subs were paid, and that's no sort of protection. Sorry, not much help.
 
I'll have more to update as this saga comes to an end, but I HAVE received 2 out of the 4 lien releases from the builder so far, they say I will have 1 more tomorrow, and they tell me the 4th sub was actually an employee. At the time both the PB and this sub admitted that they were an ex employee, but being subbed for one aspect of the job. I contacted that person(sub) directly and they emailed be back that they were paid in full. So as sub's go, it's looking fine.

My question at this time is in regards to the spa and return jets.

Background: The interchangeable spa jets I wanted, the PB insisted that they were not good, that I would not be happy with them, and the jets they used were the "correct" ones to use. This was one of the battles I let go of 6 months ago.

Ever since the spa was warm enough to get into, I have questioned the difficulty in loosening the "locking sleeve" to rotate the directional ball inside. I have to use a wrench to loosen them. which is still very challenging. After loosening them and redirecting the angle of the jet stream, I've tried to not tighten the locking sleeve too tightly so I could change the direction without a wrench. Unfortunately if the sleeve is not fairly tight, it loosens over time and blows the sleeve and ball out into the spa. I have asked the PB and searched online for some tool designed for this - with no luck at all.

These jets are the same ones used for the three pool returns. After the re pebble a couple weeks ago, I checked and the locking sleeves on 2 jets in the spa and 1 pool return will not budge when using a wrench. On one of them the raised "nipples" to loosen/tighten is getting worn down.

Questions
1- Is this style commonly used for gunite spa/returns?
2- Is there a tool made to tighten/loosen the sleeve?
3- Since the pvc pipe this screws into is a 1.5" fm threaded pipe, is there another type of jet that I can replace these with?

SpaJets.jpg SpaJets2.jpg
 
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Stumped on the eye-balls.

This is what I was trying to remember, assuming the internet source I just used is accurate (https://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/how-to-file-a-mechanics-lien-in-california):

[h=2]Deliver 20-Day Preliminary Notice If You Did Not Contract With The Property Owner[/h]If you did not contract directly with the property owner, you must send a "20-Day Preliminary Notice" to the property owner, the prime contractor and the lender (if any) via certified mail. This preliminary notice must contain the exact language mandated by the statute, and you must retain proof of delivery (i.e. an affidavit of delivery). The notice must be sent within 20 days of first furnishing labor, materials or services. If you send it late, it will only protect your right to lien for the labor, materials or services furnished to the project within 20 days of the notice's delivery. Sending a preliminary notice is very technical, and you may want to use a preliminary notice service like Zlien (link below) to handle the task.
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I believe this means, unless you hired someone yourself, they cannot now file a lien against your property unless they had first filed a Preliminary Lien Notice.

Of the lien releases you've received, or are expecting, did any of those subs deliver to you a prelim notice?
 
I did receive an attempted delivery notice on our front door from the post office. It referenced the PB company and the concrete company. The notice implied that they would try to redeliver as well as we could pick it up from the post office.

I called the PB and asked what it was. They said it was not sent from them, and just it was nothing, just something that company sends out.

I waited a few days and never got another notice, or the letter delivered. My bad that I forgot about it, not sure how long it was before I took the notice to the post office to pick up the letter - but, they told me that it was returned.

This sub - is the sub that the PB said he will bring tomorrow.
 
Those eyeballs are pretty standard for most installs and adjusting them doesn't redirect the flow all that well anyway. My suggestion is to set them and forget them...

As for the lockring, they are very prone to getting stuck and breaking. There are tools for them but you can easily make one yourself with a piece of 1.5" PVC and cut notches into it similar to a castle nut.

The paper was probably a Notice of Intent to Lien from the concrete company. Few contractors pay the same day the concrete is delivered and the ready mix companies don't mess around with this stuff since they get burned all the time. They can't really go after the contractors because they can disappear, go bankrupt or have no assets anyway...the homeowner has a home and a checkbook so they are the winner of the golden ticket.
 
If a sub can't establish proper service of the Prelim, then it didn't happen. Also, the way I'm interpreting the quote in post #734: the sub has 20 days to deliver the prelim from the time he starts work or furnishes materials. So if you got one today, from a guy that started 6 months ago, you'd only be on the hook for the work he did within the last 20 days. So you really should wait 20 days from the last appearance of any subcontractor on site to make a final payment. This would keep that person from filing the prelim 20 days after, and claiming payment from up to 20 days before. Overkill on my part, no doubt. Just be wary of anybody doing work this late in the process, as technically they could still deliver a prelim.

Keep in mind, most contractors know squat about contractor law. We all learned it, to get the license, and then promptly forgot it all. And most just ignore it, in large part. This is a mixed blessing to a consumer, but the law heavily favors consumers, so if a contractor doesn't follow the law precisely, they'll have a hard time supporting a claim. For example, even thought the PB kind'a knows about the liens and releases, enough to have his subs furnish the release, he's probably forgot all about the prelims. And because there weren't any prelims, no one can now lien you. Not that I'm suggesting you ignore the lien releases, you still want those. But your'e pretty much in the clear, IMO (verify all that as you see fit).

- - - Updated - - -

bdavis466 said:
The paper was probably a Notice of Intent to Lien from the concrete company. Few contractors pay the same day the concrete is delivered and the ready mix companies don't mess around with this stuff since they get burned all the time. They can't really go after the contractors because they can disappear, go bankrupt or have no assets anyway...the homeowner has a home and a checkbook so they are the winner of the golden ticket.
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Right. They started the process and issued the prelim, and then probably got paid before they needed to attempt another service.
 

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