Broken pieces in plumbing

[Bill Winston]

I started getting low flow in my spa jets, upon inspection I found these pieces logged in the jet housings. I have also heard a couple times what sounded like pieces racing through the plumbing hitting corners and parts (not a pleasant sound at all). I replaced the check valve a year ago when I first inherited the pool/spa and it is still intact. I have not taken the DE filter apart this year to clean yet - but it's the only thing I can think of. Really just looking to see if someone recognizes that pieces.

 

[ajw22]

Check your tablet chlorinator.

Work backwards from the return. It does not look like those pieces would fit through the heater.

Does your JXI heater have the Versa bypass?

 

[Bill Winston]

I do not the versa bypass on the JXI heater.


Here is a couple pics of the chlorinator. I couldn't see anything broken or missing in there...

I get what your saying on the not making it through the heater... therefore it's not likely parts from the filter or the multi port valve.

It looks like a collar with a retaining ring. I have rebuilt the check valve and the neverlube valves and can't see those parts coming from them. I guess it could be from the jets, but weird that the parts would be in multiple jets - not just the one where it might have broken.

The pool was put in 18 years ago.... it could be from years ago still bouncing around in there. Before I moved in, I had the previous owner replace the old heater that looked original and was not working - could have been old stuff from the innards of that.

 

[Bill Winston]

Mystery solved. I figured I would just follow up in case it may help someone.

They came from my filter grid elements. Who knows how old they were - not a single tear in the material covering the girds, but the plastic grids themselves were brittle and coming apart. I cut the worst one open and this is what I found.

When I moved in a year ago the tile around the pool had a lot of calcium build up. Once I learned the TFP methods and about CSI I was able to clear that up. Perhaps running a very positive CSI for who knows how long just made the plastic brittle? The date code on the filter itself is 2017 so the elements aren't more than 8 years old.

Not sure at all how these got past the heater. Maybe there is somewhat of a bypass in the heater itself.

 

[ajw22]

CSI does not affect plastic.

My guess something banged into that area during a cleaning and got the cracking started.

 

[1poolman1]

I started getting low flow in my spa jets, upon inspection I found these pieces logged in the jet housings. I have also heard a couple times what sounded like pieces racing through the plumbing hitting corners and parts (not a pleasant sound at all). I replaced the check valve a year ago when I first inherited the pool/spa and it is still intact. I have not taken the DE filter apart this year to clean yet - but it's the only thing I can think of. Really just looking to see if someone recognizes that pieces.

View attachment 636464View attachment 636465View attachment 636466

Why is the water temperature sensor not in a pipe but sitting on top of the check valve after the heater?
For the sake of the check valve and the heater, please do not use that tablet feeder.
DO NOT install the temp sensor in the pipe after the heater or it won't register accurate water temps and he system won't heat properly if the automation is used.

 

[Bill Winston]

CSI does not affect plastic.

My guess something banged into that area during a cleaning and got the cracking started.

Hmmm... not sure why it's brittle then. All of the grids are brittle - as I was removing them from the manifolds the pipe part that goes in the manifolds were breaking and you could just snap them off with your hands. All of them were quite brittle. I opened this one as it had the most free parts floating around in it - but all of them were VERY brittle.

The previous owner had no automation and the timer was malfunctioning when I bought it so the 2 hp SS pump was just running 24/7 and the spa was in spill over mode. I assume that meant the PH was probably very high unless he kept that in check with frequent MA adds - he was also using tabs. To be fair he had a new born and didn't have much time for the pool / maintenance.

I also had to replace every jet as they were very brittle.

 

[Bill Winston]

Why is the water temperature sensor not in a pipe but sitting on top of the check valve after the heater?
For the sake of the check valve and the heater, please do not use that tablet feeder.
DO NOT install the temp sensor in the pipe after the heater or it won't register accurate water temps and he system won't heat properly if the automation is used.

Good catch. I made a DIY nodejs PoolController from tagyoureit and the relayequipmentmanager from rstrause and got it running last June. I didn't know a lot at the time as I had just got the pool - I never finished the heater control part as it's quite easy to run from the front panel of the heater. The automation has save a bunch of time and frustration. I clearly ran it to the wrong location - building one of these from scratch is a lot. It's on my list to relocate, I guess to the pipe going into the heater. I never got that temp sensor reading correctly - air temp one works fine.... it's also on my list.

Also on my list is an intelliflo and remove the tablet feeder and put in a SWG.

As a TFP guy of course I don't use the tablet feeder, but what do you mean by " For the sake of the check valve and the heater, please do not use that tablet feeder." The check valve is supposed to prevent the tablet stuff from back feeding into the heater when the system if off correct? When I first moved in the check valve was destroyed and I rebuilt - and the heater was replaced just before closing. Now that I'm typing this - probably both caused by the chlorinator? When people do use these chlorinators - do they plumb them differently?

I'm constantly learning on here - good stuff and thanks to everyone for all the input.

 

[1poolman1]

Good catch. I made a DIY nodejs PoolController from tagyoureit and the relayequipmentmanager from rstrause and got it running last June. I didn't know a lot at the time as I had just got the pool - I never finished the heater control part as it's quite easy to run from the front panel of the heater. The automation has save a bunch of time and frustration. I clearly ran it to the wrong location - building one of these from scratch is a lot. It's on my list to relocate, I guess to the pipe going into the heater. I never got that temp sensor reading correctly - air temp one works fine.... it's also on my list.

Also on my list is an intelliflo and remove the tablet feeder and put in a SWG.

As a TFP guy of course I don't use the tablet feeder, but what do you mean by " For the sake of the check valve and the heater, please do not use that tablet feeder." The check valve is supposed to prevent the tablet stuff from back feeding into the heater when the system if off correct? When I first moved in the check valve was destroyed and I rebuilt - and the heater was replaced just before closing. Now that I'm typing this - probably both caused by the chlorinator? When people do use these chlorinators - do they plumb them differently?

I'm constantly learning on here - good stuff and thanks to everyone for all the input.

No matter how a feeder like that is plumbed, and yours is correct, it will cause damage unless the pool runs 24/7. They were designed for use on commercial pools where that is a frequent way of running a pool. Now, at least in my area, they are banned from commercial use because of the CYA rise they cause.

You're absolutely correct, that check is is "supposed" to prevent damage but there are no products that I am familiar with that can actually withstand the corrosive "soup" that flows backward from those feeders when the system is off. The check valve is the first to go, even if it says "chemical resistant." Then it continues on to the heater and starts eating all the soft (copper, bronze) and not-so-soft (stainless) metals which is all the very expensive parts that make the heater function. Since your heater is like the majority made today with those low manifolds, it is easy for them to be damaged as the stuff coming back out of the feeder is heavy with a very low pH. And you never know its happening until it is too late.

As to those parts getting through the heater, yes there is a bypass internal to the manifold. All heaters have them to control the amount going into and out of the heat exchanger. And that monster 2hp Whisperflo is just the kind of pump that can blast parts through the manifold after first destroying grids. The more powerful the pump, the more urgent that a DE filter be backwashed when needed as they can easily damage the grids, or damage a cartridge, or channel a sand filter. That's one of the advantages of a VSP.

 

[Bill Winston]

No matter how a feeder like that is plumbed, and yours is correct, it will cause damage unless the pool runs 24/7. They were designed for use on commercial pools where that is a frequent way of running a pool. Now, at least in my area, they are banned from commercial use because of the CYA rise they cause.

You're absolutely correct, that check is is "supposed" to prevent damage but there are no products that I am familiar with that can actually withstand the corrosive "soup" that flows backward from those feeders when the system is off. The check valve is the first to go, even if it says "chemical resistant." Then it continues on to the heater and starts eating all the soft (copper, bronze) and not-so-soft (stainless) metals which is all the very expensive parts that make the heater function. Since your heater is like the majority made today with those low manifolds, it is easy for them to be damaged as the stuff coming back out of the feeder is heavy with a very low pH. And you never know its happening until it is too late.

As to those parts getting through the heater, yes there is a bypass internal to the manifold. All heaters have them to control the amount going into and out of the heat exchanger. And that monster 2hp Whisperflo is just the kind of pump that can blast parts through the manifold after first destroying grids. The more powerful the pump, the more urgent that a DE filter be backwashed when needed as they can easily damage the grids, or damage a cartridge, or channel a sand filter. That's one of the advantages of a VSP.

thanks 1poolman1 for taking the time to comment on this - I learn so much from you and the other experts on this forum!

I do like that the equipment that I have tends to be overkill for my little pool. The whisperflo 2HP and the FNS 60 and the 400k heater make this pool super easy to take care of. It will be even better with a 3HP VSP and a SWG.

 

[1poolman1]

thanks 1poolman1 for taking the time to comment on this - I learn so much from you and the other experts on this forum!

I do like that the equipment that I have tends to be overkill for my little pool. The whisperflo 2HP and the FNS 60 and the 400k heater make this pool super easy to take care of. It will be even better with a 3HP VSP and a SWG.

Your new VSP will never be run at its full horsepower (full rpm) or what's the point in getting one. "Overkill" in pool equipment is, generally, a good thing except in the size of the pump. Overkill in pump size kills the rest of the equipment, even with a VSP if not used correctly. If you run it at more than about 1200 rpm most of the time, except for spa use, there is no point in spending the crazy-high cost they are now.

Until VSPs were both prevalent and required, I installed many, many 1/2hp pumps on very large pools, including a 40,000 gallon one. The customers noticed an immediate increase in water quality, less filter cleaning as the dirt did not get impacted into cartridges or grids, and DE pressures weren't as high, and they backwashed easier and more completely, less noise, and lowered energy cost.

You don't want to filter faster, just longer and slow.

 

[Bill Winston]

Your new VSP will never be run at its full horsepower (full rpm) or what's the point in getting one. "Overkill" in pool equipment is, generally, a good thing except in the size of the pump. Overkill in pump size kills the rest of the equipment, even with a VSP if not used correctly. If you run it at more than about 1200 rpm most of the time, except for spa use, there is no point in spending the crazy-high cost they are now.

Until VSPs were both prevalent and required, I installed many, many 1/2hp pumps on very large pools, including a 40,000 gallon one. The customers noticed an immediate increase in water quality, less filter cleaning as the dirt did not get impacted into cartridges or grids, and DE pressures weren't as high, and they backwashed easier and more completely, less noise, and lowered energy cost.

You don't want to filter faster, just longer and slow.

Yes the plan is to run it as low as I can to save money and filter better etc. Seems we only have a choice of 1.5 or 3. I could get the 1.5, but apparently the way the power is consumed it would eat probably triple the power all else equal. The other problem is now that I have all the plastic parts cleared from my jets, I’m happy with my spa jets. I would imagine 1.5 hp might lower that happy face a bit.

So I guess I’ll get the 3 and limit it to about 65% when running the spa.

 

[1poolman1]

Yes the plan is to run it as low as I can to save money and filter better etc. Seems we only have a choice of 1.5 or 3. I could get the 1.5, but apparently the way the power is consumed it would eat probably triple the power all else equal. The other problem is now that I have all the plastic parts cleared from my jets, I’m happy with my spa jets. I would imagine 1.5 hp might lower that happy face a bit.

So I guess I’ll get the 3 and limit it to about 65% when running the spa.

That's the beauty of a VSP, you find the speed that works for you. You may like the jets at 65% this week and 80% next. I'm surprised that with that 2hp single-speed pump you have that they don't hurt when used, but the jets in a "factory built" spa are usually different than the ones used in a concrete pool. Enjoy.