High Electricity Consumption

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RDspaguy said:
I'm saying that full-foam is mostly a sales gimmik, dead airspace is what insulates, and heat rises so the top is where you lose it, and you will likely not notice the difference once the missing foam has been replaced.
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I have to disagree. It still sounds like you are saying insulation isn’t necessary on the sides of a hot tub. I’d rather not lose heat to the outside if I don’t need to. If my whole tub looked purple per the below image cover and rectangular panel, I’d be seeing better efficiency.

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dogsbody said:
"Dead airspace" only insulates when it can't move around, in this case by natural convection within the enclosure. That's the whole point of having foam, fiberglass, rockwool, etc., insulation - so that the air entrained in it stays still. THEN it insulates. However, if you have a big open space within that enclosure with a heat source on the inside and a heat loss on the outside, your simple "heat rises [out] the top" model falls apart. The air circulates, and there are losses through the outer wall. Otherwise, we'd only insulate our house attics and not bother with all that pesky, expensive, itch-generating insulation in the walls, right?
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I agree that insulation has to make a difference and the notion that it doesn’t and I’m not going to notice a difference when my hot tub does get insulated properly seems silly.

If everyone that owned a hot tub was consuming 1000Kw per month in winters, no one would be buying them and most couldn’t afford to operate them.
 
jpk207 said:
everyone that owned a hot tub was consuming 1000Kw per month in winters, no one would be buying them and most couldn’t afford to operate them.
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Many people winterize them for that very reason. BTW, 1000kwh is only about $130 here. But the truth is that spas and pools are wealthy people toys, and the costs of maintenance can be prohibitive to many. The only spas I own are for sale, and my pool could be taken out by a lego, so don't think I'm being a snob. That is my professional opinion.
But get those voids filled, I feel you have a legitimate warranty claim there, and see for yourself how much it saves you next time it's this cold. All I can say is that I have removed a warehouse of foam from spas and not replaced it (per customer request) and the difference, according to them, was a few $ a month in most cases. In my opinion, spray foam is useful for support, but it's highly overrated on efficiency and generally not worth the cost. I prefer to insulate the cabinet frame with foamboard myself, which is tough without access.
But that's just my opinion based on my own personal experiences fixing these things professionally since 1996, so I'm sure there are more qualified opinions here. But I would love to hear the results, whatever they are. I've been wrong a couple times, so it CAN happen.😉
 
RDspaguy said:
Many people winterize them for that very reason. BTW, 1000kwh is only about $130 here. But the truth is that spas and pools are wealthy people toys, and the costs of maintenance can be prohibitive to many. The only spas I own are for sale, and my pool could be taken out by a lego, so don't think I'm being a snob. That is my professional opinion.
But get those voids filled, I feel you have a legitimate warranty claim there, and see for yourself how much it saves you next time it's this cold. All I can say is that I have removed a warehouse of foam from spas and not replaced it (per customer request) and the difference, according to them, was a few $ a month in most cases. In my opinion, spray foam is useful for support, but it's highly overrated on efficiency and generally not worth the cost. I prefer to insulate the cabinet frame with foamboard myself, which is tough without access.
But that's just my opinion based on my own personal experiences fixing these things professionally since 1996, so I'm sure there are more qualified opinions here. But I would love to hear the results, whatever they are. I've been wrong a couple times, so it CAN happen.😉
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Understood. I’ll post here again when I have a resolution one way or the other.
 
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RDspaguy said:
But the truth is that spas and pools are wealthy people toys, and the costs of maintenance can be prohibitive to many.
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Oh, I don't know about that. I don't want to make A Thing of this, and obviously the capital and operating costs are functions of the size of the toy and its environment, but even (relatively) po'folk like us who economize, economize, economize every day of our lives can manage a relative luxury like a used tub installed on a deck we built ourselves over the span of five years. We just never buy anything new (I've never owned a new car in my life and the average price of each of the Subarus that I maintain myself was $500 - Canadian!), engage in extreme DIY, and wring every last little bit of life out of everything we have. So as easy as it would be to be dismissive and say "we could never own one of those", if you want it badly enough, you find the deal that fits, make the jump, and make it work. In our case, I could give a toss about having a hot tub, but my wife really wanted it, she came up with the hard cash needed, and I did (and am doing) the work because over the decades she's been really low-maintenance and deserves it. Not everyone can, of course, but I think most can if they think it matters to their quality of life.
 
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dogsbody said:
Oh, I don't know about that. I don't want to make A Thing of this, and obviously the capital and operating costs are functions of the size of the toy and its environment, but even (relatively) po'folk like us who economize, economize, economize every day of our lives can manage a relative luxury like a used tub installed on a deck we built ourselves over the span of five years. We just never buy anything new (I've never owned a new car in my life and the average price of each of the Subarus that I maintain myself was $500 - Canadian!), engage in extreme DIY, and wring every last little bit of life out of everything we have. So as easy as it would be to be dismissive and say "we could never own one of those", if you want it badly enough, you find the deal that fits, make the jump, and make it work. In our case, I could give a toss about having a hot tub, but my wife really wanted it, she came up with the hard cash needed, and I did (and am doing) the work because over the decades she's been really low-maintenance and deserves it. Not everyone can, of course, but I think most can if they think it matters to their quality of life.
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Summary - life is about making good choices. :D(y)
 
dogsbody said:
Oh, I don't know about that. I don't want to make A Thing of this, and obviously the capital and operating costs are functions of the size of the toy and its environment, but even (relatively) po'folk like us who economize, economize, economize every day of our lives can manage a relative luxury like a used tub installed on a deck we built ourselves over the span of five years. We just never buy anything new (I've never owned a new car in my life and the average price of each of the Subarus that I maintain myself was $500 - Canadian!), engage in extreme DIY, and wring every last little bit of life out of everything we have. So as easy as it would be to be dismissive and say "we could never own one of those", if you want it badly enough, you find the deal that fits, make the jump, and make it work. In our case, I could give a toss about having a hot tub, but my wife really wanted it, she came up with the hard cash needed, and I did (and am doing) the work because over the decades she's been really low-maintenance and deserves it. Not everyone can, of course, but I think most can if they think it matters to their quality of life.
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While I don't disagree with any of that, the reality of a significant increase in the monthly electric bill is difficult to diy your way out of. I can tell you from experience that when money gets tight spas and pools get shut down. My profession is first hit and last recovered from recessions. I should have gone into hvac.🤔😉
 
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RDspaguy said:
While I don't disagree with any of that, the reality of a significant increase in the monthly electric bill is difficult to diy your way out of. I can tell you from experience that when money gets tight spas and pools get shut down. My profession is first hit and last recovered from recessions. I should have gone into hvac.🤔😉
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Absolutely - I have no doubt at all. Capital cost is rarely the killer, operating cost is. And I assume that if someone has to shut it down for a period, doing so properly will preserve the hard investment so that it's not a writeoff when better days come around and it can be (affordably) restarted.
 
Update from LPI, Inc on my Support Ticket regarding missing foam insulation. They are sending me some type of Spray Foam kit. When asking them on the phone how much foam, what brand, how to use, etc they told me to google it when the kit arrives. Hopefully they are sending a substantial kit and not some $50 thing that covers 1 square foot. We'll see. it is supposed to arrive on Feb 5th. It's pretty annoying they are basicaly saying, "Here, do it yourself." If I had clear access to all the areas missing foam it might not be so bad, but some sections have as little as half an inch of access for me to stick a nozzle through to spray large cavities.

Hopefully it goes well...I'll report back.
 
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That's the real deal, alright. But how much of your space is it going to fill? If I've got this right, divide their 210 "board feet" by 12 (because it's 1" thick) to get how many cubic feet is in there, and the answer is 17.5 . Divide that by 4 to get how much you have for each corner: 4.4 ft^3. I don't know exactly what your "corner dimensions" are, but it seems like this will only give you a block of insulation a little bigger than a foot on each side in a corner that's about 3' tall - and that's assuming no waste. Strikes me as a little on the low side, even just for the corners. So my approach would be to use it sparingly to get that much into each corner, then see how your losses look and how much more you're going to need to complete it properly. I would think that your focus on the first pass should be coating as much inside surface as possible rather than trying to fill the big voids.
 
dogsbody said:
That's the real deal, alright. But how much of your space is it going to fill? If I've got this right, divide their 210 "board feet" by 12 (because it's 1" thick) to get how many cubic feet is in there, and the answer is 17.5 . Divide that by 4 to get how much you have for each corner: 4.4 ft^3. I don't know exactly what your "corner dimensions" are, but it seems like this will only give you a block of insulation a little bigger than a foot on each side in a corner that's about 3' tall - and that's assuming no waste. Strikes me as a little on the low side, even just for the corners. So my approach would be to use it sparingly to get that much into each corner, then see how your losses look and how much more you're going to need to complete it properly. I would think that your focus on the first pass should be coating as much inside surface as possible rather than trying to fill the big voids.
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210 board feet is actually a lot of coverage, more than enough. Divide it by 2 to get 2 inches coverage and you have 105 board feet remaining. The problem is there just isn’t good access to the shell because it is rotomolded and also there is a layer of foam sprayed on the components in front of all the access panels. I’m going to do my best and then move on with my life. I am quite unhappy with the company I bought the hot tub from because it is ridiculous that it is my responsibility to make it right.
 
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PoolBrews said:
Wow! Just looked it up... it's $489 on Amazon!
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Yeah. If I had full access to the shell and cabinet and was building a hot tub from scratch it would be awesome. But I have to spray through a one inch gap into darkness with the hopes that I am hitting the shell of the hot tub into the void. I submitted a BBB complaint today for the parent company LPI, Inc with the desired resolution of replacing the hot tub. They don't have a great reputation so I reckon I'll just eat this nightmare like a big boy. I "bought the seller" at the local Aqua Living Factory Outlet in Warwick, RI. But he's been pretty useless from the get go. "I just sell the hot tubs, and can't help you. You have to call the Tech Support number." He keeps saying it's just like a car dealership and the sales guy doesn't fix your car. But the big difference is the dealership has the people at the dealership who can fix your car. The dealership doesn't tell you to go to Japan to get your Subaru fixed.
 
The reviews say you waste the tips if you stop for more than a minute, maybe even less.

You may want to consider cutting a couple of strategic access holes in the bottom.
 
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Any chance the tub went on a debit or credit card ? Call the company and dispute the charge for not getting what you paid for. They will ask if you tried to reconcile it with the dealer first, which you did, and you can add you also went to the manufacturer.

You don't have to try to work it out first, but it shows good faith that you did and strengthens your case.

You have 3 reasons :

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jpk207 said:
Yeah. If I had full access to the shell and cabinet and was building a hot tub from scratch it would be awesome. But I have to spray through a one inch gap into darkness with the hopes that I am hitting the shell of the hot tub into the void. I submitted a BBB complaint today for the parent company LPI, Inc with the desired resolution of replacing the hot tub. They don't have a great reputation so I reckon I'll just eat this nightmare like a big boy. I "bought the seller" at the local Aqua Living Factory Outlet in Warwick, RI. But he's been pretty useless from the get go. "I just sell the hot tubs, and can't help you. You have to call the Tech Support number." He keeps saying it's just like a car dealership and the sales guy doesn't fix your car. But the big difference is the dealership has the people at the dealership who can fix your car. The dealership doesn't tell you to go to Japan to get your Subaru fixed.
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Based on my thermal camera images, I should have left my fiberglass insulation in, rather than taking it out and spray foaming. My readings are worse now than with the fiberglass. Not terrible, but my fiberglass insulation stuffing insulated really well compared to my spray job.
 
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