Valve replacement and possible replumbing advice?

[smkz]

Hi all,

I have a 3-way valve with a crack in the body that needs replaced, but my plumbing looks like it might make this challenging. It's the valve labeled for the suction cleaner in the pics; when opened it sucks in tons of air. I've already disassembled it, inspected and replaced O-rings etc., and the vacuum leak is definitely due to a crack in the valve body unfortunately so replacement seems like the only option. As you can probably see from my pics, whoever originally plumbed my pool didn't seem to have planned it out all too well, and I don't have much room to work with. I don't see any way to replace this valve without also cutting out and replacing the other two valves that are connected right next to it. I am OK doing this since they're all old and I can see some small cracks forming around the screws on other other valves, but I'd like to plumb the replacements with some additional clearance between everything so the issue doesn't happen again and future jobs are easier. It seems like the pipes coming out of the ground are quite close together, so I'm having trouble coming up with an alternative way to arrange new valves without digging and doing some major restructuring (in which case I'd need to hire a professional). I'm also going to be replacing my single speed pump with a VS one soon so would be tackling this job all at once, and would also probably want to clean up the pump inlet so it's actually a straight line of pipe and not the weird angled thing that it is now. And yes, the exact same situation exists on the pressure side, but I'll deal with that one later lol.

I'm fine with minor PVC work, but if I'm going to need to dig and rearrange piping further down I'll get someone who really knows what they're doing to handle it. Any advice or insight into how to tackle this situation would be greatly appreciated!

 

[ajw22]

Read PVC Repair - Further Reading

A Hub Saver can clean out a cut pipe and reuse the diverter or 90. However, you may not be able to get a straight shot into the diverter to clean it out. You can try to reuse them. In the worst case, you will need to cut it out and replace it.

You will not know until you start working on it how far back you need to cut things out to fit the new pieces.

Let's see what Pro Tips we can get - @1poolman1 @wireform @Lake Placid @bradgray

 

[mas985]

Hi all,

I have a 3-way valve with a crack in the body that needs replaced, but my plumbing looks like it might make this challenging. It's the valve labeled for the suction cleaner in the pics; when opened it sucks in tons of air. I've already disassembled it, inspected and replaced O-rings etc., and the vacuum leak is definitely due to a crack in the valve body unfortunately so replacement seems like the only option.

Not the only option as I have sealed a few cracks like that before but it depends on the size of the crack. Being on the suction side of the pump makes a crack like that easier to fix if you want to give it a try. Sometimes putting just a little PVC glue (or liquid epoxy) on the crack while the pump is running and the valve is open will suck in the glue sealing the crack.

 

[mas985]

I forgot to mention that for larger "openings" I have used hot glue before successfully. I have an abandoned injection port on the suction side of the pump with a blob of hot glue sealing the opening. it has been there for quite a while now and seals great.

 

[smkz]

Thanks for the tips, I've got plenty of PVC cement from when I did my SWG install so I may give that one a try. Would not have thought to do it with the pump running but totally makes sense!

 

[Lake Placid]

I’ve successfully sealed cracked bodies with JB weld. Similar to yours it was on the suction side of the system. It’s worth a shot before cutting everything out and replumbing.

 

[1poolman1]

Read PVC Repair - Further Reading

A Hub Saver can clean out a cut pipe and reuse the diverter or 90. However, you may not be able to get a straight shot into the diverter to clean it out. You can try to reuse them. In the worst case, you will need to cut it out and replace it.

You will not know until you start working on it how far back you need to cut things out to fit the new pieces.

Let's see what Pro Tips we can get - @1poolman1 @wireform @Lake Placid @bradgray

My "go to" for something like that, especially on the suction side, is PlastAid. If the PVC glue doesn't work, I would give it a try.

 

[bradgray]

Strangely the system didn't notify me of the tag but I stumbled on this one anyway!

I agree with all suggestions.

I would start with PVC weld if they are hairline cracks. I really like FUSION by Oatey for all our retrofit plumbing. It's great for sealing suction leaks as well because it's clear and single-step so you get good weld without making a holy mess with the patchwork of two-step primer and weld. You definitely want the pump running; it will draw the weld inward a bit like flux is designed to help flow when soldering copper.

If that does not seal or gaps too large, PlastAid is also a solid product. However you want your mix to be fairly runny for it to bond properly to the PVC. If you try and slap the moldable stage of it to PVC, it doesn't seem to seal as well.

 

[smkz]

Thanks all. I tried a repair on Sunday with what I already had on hand: Oatey "rain r shine" blue cement, and it did seem to improve the situation somewhat. I applied a small amount to the crack with the pump running, and at first it looked to have completely solved the issue, but 30 mins later I checked and there was some air ingress happening again, although not nearly as bad as before. If it worsens further I may give the plast-aid or fusion cement a try.

I did do some measuring to estimate work needed for a new pump install, and discovered that the pump I'm planning on getting (Intelliflo/Pro VS 3 HP) has its intake almost 1.5" higher than my current pump, so it seems that I may end up needing to cut that valve section off to raise the height anyway, in which case I'd just replace them all. Still wish there was a bit more room between the pipes coming out of the ground, but I think these valves are 20 years old so guess it's not a big deal to just recreate the setup with new jandy valves.

 

[Dirk]

This is probably just me...

These glue tricks are mentioned here often. I guess they must work. But I would be nervous about using them. I like your idea of replumbing the whole mess to (1) replace old and failing (or about to fail) valves, while at the same time arranging the new manifold to accommodate future repairs/replacements, and the new pump.

I can't offer a specific layout, but just keep in mind that valves do not have to be horizontal, and they don't have to be all 90° from each other. You want easy access to the handles, of course, and the screws, should you ever have to access the guts again, but that's it. Which way they point doesn't matter so much. You also want to minimize the number of elbows as much as possible, and your instinct to end up with a straight run of pipe into the pump is correct. Speaking of which, the pump doesn't need to be parallel/perpendicular to the slab, either. If angling it some to make the new layout work, then that's fine, too. You might also want to make sure you have room to add valve actuators someday, if you ever might want to automate that spa valve, or the cleaner valve.

I would buy the three new valves, a handful of couplers and elbows, along with a few feet of PVC pipe, and the new pump, then cut out all the old stuff and then play around with angles and orientations to see what might work better. Just dry-fit all the parts until you're happy with the layout. Maybe one or two valves will be vertical, the other(s) horizontal. Maybe one will face one way, and another another way. Etc. It might not end up pretty, but so what. You can always just go back to the same layout you have now, should you not come up with anything better.

When you're done, give everything a couple coats of latex paint to help protect from UV. Then re-label everything.

Sidebar Rant: when the trenches are open, and sky's the limit, there's usually no good reason the pipes can't be farther apart, and the pad made larger, then all the valves and elbows spaced such to make future replacement, of anything on the pad, a breeze. Instead, contractors smoosh everything together, the plumber makes it work, and they all just shove the problem of future maintenance on to some future-schmuck (us!!), who has to deal with their lack of planning (or just plain laziness or cheapness). It's actually very common, and you rarely see a pad that facilitates any future work. The original workers would rarely ever be called back, so why should they care? Such a shame...

But the silver lining: three high-quality Jandy valves might be in the $200 neighborhood. PVC might get up to $20-30. So for the cost of a night out at a decent restaurant these days, you can have an all-new manifold and put the worry of failed or failing valves behind you. In the grand scheme of pool maintenance costs, that's not so bad at all.

 

[smkz]

Thanks for the insight. I agree that I'd like to replace these valves soon regardless of successful repairs, and I'll probably order some Jandy valves so I can physically move them around and see if I can find a better arrangement... I'm not really able to come up with anything in my head that doesn't involve adding a bunch of extra elbows. Upon further inspection, it does look like my current pump may be sitting on top of a riser and the actual inlet pipe height seems to match what the replacement will be (I was looking at dimensions from a pdf and seem to have measured wrong oops), so I might get lucky and not need to adjust that at least.

Any suggestions for the paint, or would any outdoor latex based stuff work? All the PVC at my equipment pad is definitely well coated in white paint, but the pipes going up the roof to the solar heater are just covered in the same paint that was used on my house and it seems to be holding up fine.

 

[bradgray]

I did do some measuring to estimate work needed for a new pump install, and discovered that the pump I'm planning on getting (Intelliflo/Pro VS 3 HP) has its intake almost 1.5" higher than my current pump, so it seems that I may end up needing to cut that valve section off to raise the height anyway, in which case I'd just replace them all. Still wish there was a bit more room between the pipes coming out of the ground, but I think these valves are 20 years old so guess it's not a big deal to just recreate the setup with new jandy valves.

If I'm you, I'm putting a 2-way valve as the first piece after you cut the intake pipes. In other words, giving SK, MD and VAC their own vertical 2-way. I do not personally like the 'either or' layouts some builders use. The theory is that is saves on material and reduces the odds the pump is starved. However I've seen plenty starved this way. Possibly more than when all are independent. I can expound if you're curious. (Edit* we got into the details below after all)

If you're feeling cheeky and money isn't an obstacle- I've not yet done this, but I've considered trying it:
An elbow check valve for each suction and swap it's guts for a standard 2-way. It'll reduce the number of fittings you need to weld and give you more space between fittings.

 

[Dirk]

The theory is that it saves pennies and reduces the odds the pump is starved.

This is not a "theory," and, IMO, has nothing to do with saving pennies. More like saving thousands. Three-ways, set up the way you have them, make it impossible for you (or a mischievous child or "helpful" relative) shutting off two-ways such that it completely blocks the flow into the pump, which can destroy some pumps, or even some pipes.

You get the same amount of control with the three-ways, with none of the risk. Admittedly, there are mixed opinions on this particular subject here at TFP, so this is just mine. I'm a big fan of idiot-proof, because well, I'm sometimes an idiot.

 

[Dirk]

Any suggestions for the paint, or would any outdoor latex based stuff work? All the PVC at my equipment pad is definitely well coated in white paint, but the pipes going up the roof to the solar heater are just covered in the same paint that was used on my house and it seems to be holding up fine.

Any quality exterior latex that has UV protection is fine. Ha, I mistook the stark white of your plumbing for unpainted PVC. But of course the absence of the red printing on the PVC is the telltale I missed. Some here believe that it would take decades for the sun to compromise Schedule 40 PVC of that size, so they say it's not necessary to paint. On the other hand, I did see the recommendation to paint above-ground PVC on a PVC pipe manufacturer's website. Either way, it makes your pad look nicer, and if it offers protection, too, then it would seem it's 30 minutes well spent...

 

[Dirk]

If you buy your pipe at Lowes or HD, chances are it's manufactured by Charlotte. I think they're one of the biggest. So they would know:

5 Ways to Manage Potential UV Degradation of Plastic Pipe

Learn how to protect plastic pipes from UV radiation damage and how to prevent degradation with proper protection and maintenance techniques.

www.charlottepipe.com

 

[smkz]

Haha yep, whoever painted these originally did a good job at least. This is FL and while I have a small shade sail over the equipment pad, it isn't great and everything will still bake in direct sun for a few hours per day so I'll definitely be painting them.

 

[Dirk]

Haha yep, whoever painted these originally did a good job at least. This is FL and while I have a small shade sail over the equipment pad, it isn't great and everything will still bake in direct sun for a few hours per day so I'll definitely be painting them.

Somebody did a heck of a job labelling, too! Nice to see. Nice to have. Happy New Year!

 

[smkz]

Thanks, you too! The labels were me, I got tired of trying to read the sharpie scribbles on the pipes from the previous owner

 

[bradgray]

This is not a "theory," and, IMO, has nothing to do with saving pennies. More like saving thousands. Three-ways, set up the way you have them, make it impossible for you (or a mischievous child or "helpful" relative) shutting off two-ways such that it completely blocks the flow into the pump, which can destroy some pumps, or even some pipes.

You get the same amount of control with the three-ways, with none of the risk. Admittedly, there are mixed opinions on this particular subject here at TFP, so this is just mine. I'm a big fan of idiot-proof, because well, I'm sometimes an idiot.

I understand what you're proposing. Bear with me though...

I'll have to find the photos in my system, but I've had at least two 3-ways in the last year misused in a way that reveals the weakness in that design.

One that burned up a single speed pump and another that was on a return as a balance between a slide and a waterfall that ballooned and warped the pipe from deadheading.

They were rotated in such a way that the diverter closed the neck of the 3-way, closing both skimmer and main with one dumb twist, and on the other, closing both returns.

Unfortunately its not idiot-proof in the way we'd all like. Especially when the users are uneducated, like most guests in a rental. You'll always find an idiot to out-do the last idiot.

Edit* added the mages I referenced.
We rebuilt it, balanced the flow and then removed the handle entirely so it couldn't be rotated again.

 

[Dirk]

I understand what you're proposing. Bear with me though...

I'll have to find the photos in my system, but I've had at least two 3-ways in the last year misused in a way that reveals the weakness in that design.

One that burned up a single speed pump and another that was on a return as a balance between a slide and a waterfall that ballooned and warped the pipe from deadheading.

They were rotated in such a way that the diverter closed the neck of the 3-way, closing both skimmer and main with one dumb twist, and on the other, closing both returns.

Unfortunately its not bulletproof or idiot-proof. Especially when the users are uneducated, like most of my client's guests are at their rentals. You'll always find an idiot to out-do the last idiot.

Edit* added images I referenced.
We rebuilt it, balanced the flow and then removed the handle entirely so it couldn't be rotated again.

Thank you for examples of what can happen when a pump is dead-headed. And I'm always up for being corrected when I'm wrong. But it's my understanding that a functioning, properly installed and configured Jandy three-way cannot deadhead a pump, on either the suction or return manifold. If a three-way is purposely or inadvertently misconfigured, such that it can be turned to close the inlet (on the return side) or the outlet (when used on the suction side), then yes, of course, it could cause the very damage I'm claiming they can prevent. But if configured correctly, that can't happen. Unless, somehow, the stops that keep the diverter from rotating more degrees than it's supposed to are not present.

So I'll concede they are not idiot proof when it comes to installing them, only when using them.