Switching from Frog to SWCG

[Newdude]

The manual repeats that I'm going to want a bypass around the SWG cell, for my cold climate, and also for when I need to clean the cell.

It's silly and there is zero need. With TFP chemistry you should never need to clean the cell. Vinyl doesn't need CH like plaster does and you don't refill with hard water all the time like they do in the desert so your levels will stay low. You're also off the pool store turnip truck so you won't be inadvertently spiking it with weekly CalHypo shocks.

When it's too cold to work, it simply shuts off and water harmlessly passes through. Plus most of that time, your heater will allow it to work when it wouldn't.

 

[P00LNerd]

The control unit is the same for the RJ30 thru RJ60 (maybe the RJ15 as well).
You can easily build a cover over it and maybe even bring it indoors over winter.

Definitely. In fact, if I redo the mounting board for the breaker panel, I think a small roof over the whole thing would be in order. Thanks for the idea!

I must have missed it - what is your existing timer powering?
Your VS pump should be getting continuous power.

I don't have an existing timer on the pool equipment, as my pump is fully programmable for both schedule and time of day. My experience with hardwired mechanical timers is from outdoor lighting on commercial rental properties we owned in the 1970's - 1990's.

It's silly and there is zero need. With TFP chemistry you should never need to clean the cell.

Wow! Really? That's awesome.

Vinyl doesn't need CH like plaster does and you don't refill with hard water all the time like they do in the desert so your levels will stay low.

Our local water hardness is actually pretty high, usually total hardness around 250 - 300 ppm. So, I get water delivered for major fills, and only use my well water for topping off from evaporation. I probably use just 1000 - 2000 gallons of my own well water in the pool per year. Our CH is presently 110 - 130 ppm, depending on how you count the drop test (start of color change vs. end of color change), but of course it will rise with time as I top off from my own well (TH = 260 ppm).

... and before anyone asks, we only run treated water thru the house. Without a water softener, our plumbing would cease to work and our sinks and toilets would all be stained. But the water going out thru the vacuum breaker to the irrigation system and pool is untreated, it's only filtered for solids and sediment, thru a Big Blue pleated paper filter.

Since the pool fill valve is teed into the irrigation, it has to be hard water there, you can't really run treated water for irrigation. Only chance to get treated water to the pool would be dragging a few hundred feet of garden hose from the garage, where I have one treated water hose bib for washing cars.

When it's too cold to work, it simply shuts off and water harmlessly passes through. Plus most of that time, your heater will allow it to work when it wouldn't.

Nice! But just to be clear, I'm not running the heater when the weather is too cold to use the pool. It's just a huge waste of electric, to have a warm pool, when no one is using it. But if salt cell runs above 55F, I should be fine, other than maybe first week or two after opening. I close the pool as soon as water drops below 60F at end of season, and open as soon as surface temp under winter cover reaches 60F, deep water probably in the 40F's without the pump running. I put the solar cover on as soon as I open the pool, to get the water temp headed up and limit pollen and tree seed pods in the water.

 

[wireform]

For refill due to evaporation I'd grab that hose from the car washing and fill the pool as it won't let the CH climb any higher.

 

[Newdude]

but of course it will rise with time as I top off from my own well

Nothing like the desert where they replace more than their pool volume each year. You'll fluctuate because it'll rise a little during dry spells but then wet spells will level it out with overflow. At the end of the season it should be relatively neutral.

But if salt cell runs above 55F, I should be fine,

Yup. And when it's that cool, UV loss is almost nothing so it's not like you're adding everyday like a LC pool, or even weekly sometimes.

 

[SJPoe]

On the whole 'timer' thing - You may want to consider something like a Smart Outlet instead - you can set schedules for them just like a timer, plus control them from your phone (and check their status).
My NG Heater and RJ-60+ SWG are setup for 110v, and plug into a external in-use enclosure with the smart outlet, which is connected back via a GFCI breaker. My 'automation' checks that the outlet is communicating, and the outlets are turned on every 10 minutes or so, and will automatically turn off the SWG/Heater outlets should my pump stop running. If the outlet goes offline, or the outlets are off, the automation notifies me via text/email too. The flow switches for the SWG and Heater are then 'backups' for the 'automation'.

Even without the automation, for basic schedules and remote monitoring/control, they are cheap (<$20), readily available, come in dedicated external versions if needed - the only thing I haven't found yet is a GFCI version.

Kasa Smart Wi-Fi Power Outlet, 2-Sockets – Kasa Smart

Everything you enjoy about smart plugs, now in a discreet in-wall outlet.

www.kasasmart.com

 

[P00LNerd]

For refill due to evaporation I'd grab that hose from the car washing and fill the pool as it won't let the CH climb any higher.

You're making me feel like all that extra work to hard-plumb the pool into my irrigation was a waste of effort!

I just went on a short bender, looking at ion exchange filters, figuring I might add one to the line feeding the pool. But the ones I found are rated just 2000 - 2500 grains, meaning only ~150 gallons at my 15 gpg hardness. I do 300 gallons per inch, when topping the pool, so that's a no-go.

What's the target and acceptable maximum CH for a vinyl pool?

Nothing like the desert where they replace more than their pool volume each year.

Dang! Didn't even think of that. Yeah, I add 1" (~300 gallons) just a handful of times per summer. We have crazy high humidity, so evaporation is lower. Other than our typical seasonal drought July 1 to Aug. 15, we usually have enough rain that we're dumping rather than filling.

I had 4" of rain in two days this past weekend, and it's cool now, but this was preceded by two weeks of 90 - 100F with no rain. Just our usual summer ups and downs.

You'll fluctuate because it'll rise a little during dry spells but then wet spells will level it out with overflow. At the end of the season it should be relatively neutral.

Excellent.

On the whole 'timer' thing - You may want to consider something like a Smart Outlet instead - you can set schedules for them just like a timer, plus control them from your phone (and check their status).

Our whole house is automated via ZWave, we have literally dozens (plural) of those outlet modules and smart switches for outside lighting, etc. I also have one plugged into the utility receptacle, which you might be able to see thru the clear cover in the photo I posted, which controls string LED globe lights on the fence. I like this system, because it's integrated into our home security system, all in one app with automation, and everything down to water flood sensors and corresponding triggers for shutoff valves (eg. blown washer hose will never flood our house).

Trouble is, with that pool utility panel so far from the house, and our 2 ft thick stone walls, it's not exactly reliable. I installed a repeater near a 4th floor window, which seems to have the best line of sight down to that panel, which is blocked from the house by the pool wall itself. That has helped, but still not totally reliable. Might be easier to toggle the 50 amp mains out from the house, as that could all be arranged in the basement with a contactor, and more reliable comm's. But of course, that'd be killing everything, including some of the outside lighting.

I may look into more Zwave repeaters, or maybe even installing an outdoor WiFi router for better internet access at the pool (streaming sound system). But to be honest, a mechanical timer could probably work just as well for me. I don't need the automation for monitoring, as I also have full circuit monitoring of four of our seven breaker panels, via multiple Emporia Vue systems. I didn't put a Vue in the pool panel, it's such a tiny panel, but I have it on the feeder going out to that panel, so I can see total pool usage. By amount of draw, I can tell whether just pump or pump + heater is running, at any time.

Yeah... I have seven breaker panels. Big old house, roughly 8100 sq.ft and 300 years old., nothing here is straightforward.

 

[Newdude]

You're making me feel like all that extra work to hard-plumb the pool into my irrigation was a waste of effort!

It's awesome on dry spells, so it certainly wasn't a waste. It's just not *as* needed as the dry climates where it would be a daily chore if you skipped it.

What's the target and acceptable maximum CH for a vinyl pool?

Target is little/none without a gas heater (gad heatet manufacturers recommend 200 so we do to for warranty purposes only)

Max vinyl CH will be way more than you'll ever reach with Ph/TA in control.

Just our usual summer ups and downs.

Yeah. Sometimes I go 3 weeks in a row filling on the weekend, other times I'm draining 3 times in a row. Most years it's balanced for the bulk of the season.

 

[SJPoe]

I may look into more Zwave repeaters, or maybe even installing an outdoor WiFi router for better internet access at the pool

I'm lucky that my heater/swg pad is right next to the back-corner basement wall, and I could drop a Wifi mesh-node just the other side of the wall, so signal is rarely an issue.

To be honest, as I run my pump 24/7, the only scenario where my SWG is on and the pump is not pushing water is after a power cut - sometimes the pump simply doesn't recover if there is like a 10second outage. If it's out for an hour, no problems. That can result in the power being on for the SWG and Pump, but the pump basically stalled - my automation catches this and turns the SWG outlets off too - although the flow switch SHOULD catch that anyway. I do have a wifi-enabled switch for the pump too, so I can turn it off and on again remotely to solve the stalled condition once it's detected.

Of course, since getting everything setup and configured, we've not had any power outages so the only 'alerts' I get is when I turn the pump off to backwash the filter or whatever

 

[P00LNerd]

With the plumbing / bypass changes, requirement for a larger electric utility panel for mounting controller and timer, and even a small roof over the panel... this is all starting to look like a project best left for the off-season. It's not going to be a quick hours-long shut-down to switch everything over, but probably a full weekend project, even with some good prep and planning.

But the RJ+'s are on sale now at discountsaltpool.com. Pricing seems good, at least compared to Amazon.

Are they always on sale, or should I grab now, and just take the hit on warranty if it sits unused until September? Realistically, our usage of the pool drops way off to near-zero after Labor Day, but I usually keep the pump running until covering 3rd week of September. We are into occasional/random sub-freezing nights by Oct.1, many years.

 

[sande005]

This is the timer I got: Amazon.com

I called Circupool before purchasing. The control unit for the RJ45+ is "all weather". They said no issues in snow, -30F temps. Some here report needing shade in blistering summers - but here in Minnesota (closer to you climate wise), not an issue. I do wrap it in a heavy garbage bag over the winter as a bit of protection from the little UV we get.
I got the way too expensive (for what it is) bypass pipe. Last winter I took the cell inside. Worried about what ice due to residual water might do. But may skip that step this winter.
The manual is written from the standpoint of a pool that is not lowered and all lines blown out - so freezing water in the lines may hurt the cell. But if we do a good job of blowing out all the plumbing.....I'll think about it, not hard to remove the cell - and if the lines are otherwise empty, no need for a bypass (except to keep furry animals out of the open pipes).

From lots of reading, as noted, there is no cell maintenance needed if following TFP guidelines, and CA is in reasonable range. So you may never bypass it, unless you decide to do the winter thing.

 

[P00LNerd]

I'm lucky that my heater/swg pad is right next to the back-corner basement wall, and I could drop a Wifi mesh-node just the other side of the wall, so signal is rarely an issue.

To be honest, as I run my pump 24/7, the only scenario where my SWG is on and the pump is not pushing water is after a power cut - sometimes the pump simply doesn't recover if there is like a 10second outage. If it's out for an hour, no problems. That can result in the power being on for the SWG and Pump, but the pump basically stalled - my automation catches this and turns the SWG outlets off too - although the flow switch SHOULD catch that anyway. I do have a wifi-enabled switch for the pump too, so I can turn it off and on again remotely to solve the stalled condition once it's detected.

Of course, since getting everything setup and configured, we've not had any power outages so the only 'alerts' I get is when I turn the pump off to backwash the filter or whatever

Most of my immediate neighbors have pools, so I can set up my Vue system to detect problems, and then call one of them to go toggle power if no one is home when a problem is detected. They're not exactly close, our houses are pretty spread out here, but I don't think it will be a super-frequent issue. Your system is definitely nicer, and I'll aim to get there, if I can improve outdoor comm's via Zwave or WiFi in the future.

 

[sande005]

My total time, after having all the stuff on hand, was 2 hrs. I cheated, and hired an electrician for the timer (not real confident in my 220v skills). Took him 4 hrs, but that included him going to the store to buy a new mounting pool, digging the hole, and putting it in. Actual electrical time was about 1 hr. I watched, and I easily could have done it, although in about 2 hrs. Should have done it myself....

 

[P00LNerd]

This is the timer I got: Amazon.com

I called Circupool before purchasing. The control unit for the RJ45+ is "all weather". They said no issues in snow, -30F temps. Some here report needing shade in blistering summers - but here in Minnesota (closer to you climate wise), not an issue. I do wrap it in a heavy garbage bag over the winter as a bit of protection from the little UV we get.
I got the way too expensive (for what it is) bypass pipe. Last winter I took the cell inside. Worried about what ice due to residual water might do. But may skip that step this winter.
The manual is written from the standpoint of a pool that is not lowered and all lines blown out - so freezing water in the lines may hurt the cell. But if we do a good job of blowing out all the plumbing.....I'll think about it, not hard to remove the cell - and if the lines are otherwise empty, no need for a bypass (except to keep furry animals out of the open pipes).

From lots of reading, as noted, there is no cell maintenance needed if following TFP guidelines, and CA is in reasonable range. So you may never bypass it, unless you decide to do the winter thing.

Thanks! Yeah, you're probably even way colder than us, in most of Minnesota.

I blow my lines out with a big shop vac, and then back-fill with a little RV antifreeze, to ensure any water that gets in and settles over winter will be mixing with antifreeze. My only real "trouble spot" is the skimmer itself, I need to do a better job of sealing that this winter.

I do plan to remove the cell for winter, but I don't think I'll bother with bypassing it when shut down over winter. I just install expanding screw type rubber corks in all the open unions, which seem to do the job of keeping rodents and water out of the system.

 

[P00LNerd]

My total time, after having all the stuff on hand, was 2 hrs. I cheated, and hired an electrician for the timer (not real confident in my 220v skills). Took him 4 hrs, but that included him going to the store to buy a new mounting pool, digging the hole, and putting it in. Actual electrical time was about 1 hr. I watched, and I easily could have done it, although in about 2 hrs. Should have done it myself....

I'm an electrical engineer, and we used to own a plumbing business (grew up working as plumber's apprentice). I've also done a ton of commercial electrical work. So I'll be doing everything myself.

I'd guess your estimate of 4 ~ 6 hours actual labor is probably reasonable, once I have the utility panel board changed out for something larger. Maybe 6 ~ 8 hours with that included. But what you guys fail to understand is that each run to the plumbing supply for an additional union or fitting that I either lack or need to re-do after error, will set me back another 1.5+ hours... and that's if the store happens to be open when I need it.

I'd rather not have to scramble like that, but know I have the time to get it right. Always easier to pick up the fittings I need next time I'm headed that direction, than waste my time making a special trip, due to unnecessary time pressure.

 

[proavia]

I don't have an existing timer on the pool equipment, as my pump is fully programmable for both schedule and time of day. My experience with hardwired mechanical timers is from outdoor lighting on commercial rental properties we owned in the 1970's - 1990's.

A simple Intermatic T-104 would work well. Wire it to the sme CB as the pump.
Set it to start 30 minutes after the pump comes on to 30 bedore the pump shuts off.
Check it once a week or so to be sure the pump and timer times are synced.
Simple, easy, reliable.

 

[P00LNerd]

A simple Intermatic T-104 would work well. Wire it to the sme CB as the pump.
Set it to start 30 minutes after the pump comes on to 30 bedore the pump shuts off.
Check it once a week or so to be sure the pump and timer times are synced.
Simple, easy, reliable.

That could definitely work. But given we can have outages when I'm out of town, which might put things way out of sync, I'd really like to find a dual timer. That way, even if it's off by time of day, the pump and SWG maintain their relationship.

 

[Newdude]

That way, even if it's off by time of day, the pump and SWG maintain their relationship.

You have to synch multiple timers either way occasionally. They'll never both kick on identical and even a second or two off adds up over the season.

Just a glance with the weekly equipment check is enough to see they haven't fallen too far out of sync.

 

[P00LNerd]

Cool. That'll be the way to go, then.

 

[P00LNerd]

I'm thinking that, if I go CORE, I could probably get this done a bit quicker by skipping the utility panel upgrade. I suspect I have enough blank space on that hunk of mahogany to mount a T-104, but not timer and controller. Back side of my mounting panel has even less space, due to post, and fence obscures access.

Core takes up more space down on the pad, but if I'm getting rid of the Frog and some surrounding plumbing, that may be less an issue. Long way of saying, for my situation, CORE may have some advantages over RJ. Anyone here have a CORE, who can chime in on it?

 

[PoolStored]

The Core has 25% increments on the output. RJ has increments of 5%.