could a person tie both pumps into the master drain in the spa or would i need to have (4) drain fittings on the spa floor? i would guess that the higher suction from the jet pump would overpower the heater pump suction and probably cause issues, right?
Plumbing Schematic Review - Help?
- Thread starter Brant
- Start date
- May 3, 2007
- 18,095
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
4 MD's is a better solution to prevent suction problems. You could potentially share each MD sump with two separate lines if absolutely necessary but the MD sump would need to be larger anyway so I don't think there is any benefit in doing that. If floor space is the issue, suction lines can also be placed in the spa wall instead. You would just place them where no one would be sitting anyway like near the steps.
4 MD's should fit fairly nicely in a typical spa.
4 MD's should fit fairly nicely in a typical spa.
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it just seems like a lot more stuff to add a 3rd pump to my design. im sure the extra jet power would be nice but when i start considering having (2) 3" drains lines to the spa, (4) drain fittings and an extra pump, i start feeling like I'm over doing it. we are in TX and my wife already doesn't like spa jets splashing water into her hair. she is kinda prissy when it comes to that. 
i'm going to go over to my buddies and sit in his spa. ive never done this with his jets on. i need to see how his feels. he is basically set up very similar to mine except for his spa is smaller and has 8 jets with no dedicated pump so his flow is probably even worse. i wonder if he is ripping through his heater or if they installed an excess flow bypass?
to be continued...
i'm going to go over to my buddies and sit in his spa. ive never done this with his jets on. i need to see how his feels. he is basically set up very similar to mine except for his spa is smaller and has 8 jets with no dedicated pump so his flow is probably even worse. i wonder if he is ripping through his heater or if they installed an excess flow bypass?
to be continued...
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,634
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I find that funny as you are overdoing it in many less important ways.
we are in TX and my wife already doesn't like spa jets splashing water into her hair. she is kinda prissy when it comes to that.
You can’t get the jets more powerful then what is installed but you turn down the pump speed to dial down the jets to the prissy setting that is acceptable.
The spa pic in post#82 is my spa setup. Mark is trying to guide you in what is more important then all the returns and flows you are over designing in.
I'm considering removing the spa return but even if keep it, it's (1) control valve, (1) check valve and a few feet of piping. Not near the cost of a 3 hp pump and 2nd 3" spa drain. I understand that I'm sacrificing 3 gpm per jet but in my mind, that doesn't seem like a catastrophic loss. Everything is still on the table and I appreciate the input and advice.
If I removed the spa return, what else am I overdoing that is less important? I'm curious.
- May 3, 2007
- 18,095
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Keep in mind that 3 GPM results in a force to the body that is 40% greater due to the square of the exit velocity.
Wow, that sounds crazy. Are you an engineer or have you just learned all this over time?
- May 3, 2007
- 18,095
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
40+ years MSEE but this stuff I learned on my own over the last 20 years.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,634
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Keep the spa return but valve it. It may come in handy att8mrs although it will mostly be off.
Over design just costs a bit more and adds complexity.
Under design cannot be easily fixed.
The important discussion here was having a separate spa jet pump not restricted by a filter or heater so you can dial in whatever levels of spa jets you desire.
What about this...
Could I still get away with just two pumps but combine my spa jet pump and my water features together with 3-way valves. I wouldn't be able to flow my waterfalls when I'm using the spa jets but I don't really care about that. Or does the control logic get too challenging?
Thoughts?
Could I still get away with just two pumps but combine my spa jet pump and my water features together with 3-way valves. I wouldn't be able to flow my waterfalls when I'm using the spa jets but I don't really care about that. Or does the control logic get too challenging?
Thoughts?
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,634
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
That will work if you accept spa jets or water features running but not both simultaneously.
If water feature circuit is ON then spa jets will be OFF.
Waterfalls and bubblers will all run together and not be individually controlled?
With a separate 3 hp spa pump and 3" suction, could I go back to 8 jets or is 6 my limit?
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,634
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I think 8 will work fine. I have 8 jets on my spa and don’t think I have 3” line. I did not build the pool so not sure about the size of my underground pipes.
I was putting separate automated valves on both the waterfalls main feed line and the bubbler main feed line. You can see them in this photo.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,634
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
You have to make the waterfall or bubbler diverter a 3-way diverter so that one or the other is open.
Otherwise you can end up with spa closed, water going to water features, and both waterfall and bubblers are closed. Can’t let the valves get into that configuration.
Otherwise you can end up with spa closed, water going to water features, and both waterfall and bubblers are closed. Can’t let the valves get into that configuration.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,634
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
It gets maybe too complex if you want three possible configurations of:
- Waterfalls on
- Bubblers on
- Waterfalls and Bubblers on
- May 3, 2007
- 18,095
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Here is the flow rate and impact force for each of the configurations assuming a separate spa jet pump and separate plumbing:
6 Jets 3" pipe: 17.8 GPM & 1.99 lbf
8 Jets 3" pipe: 16.0 GPM & 1.60 lbf (25% reduction from 6 jets, 3)
6 Jets 2.5" pipe: 16.9 GPM & 1.79 lbf (5% reduction from 6 jets, 3") Out of APSP compliance for suction side velocity (6.79 ft/sec)
8 Jets 2.5" pipe: 14.8 GPM & 1.38 lbf (9% reduction from 8 jets, 3") Out of APSP compliance for suction side velocity (7.95 ft/sec)
For 6 jets, 2.5" or 3" is ok but for 8 jets, you definitely need 3" to maintain less than 6 ft/sec in the suction line.
Also, sheer descents require high flow rates and low head loss so a waterfall pump is really more appropriate for that and doesn't cost as much as a VS. The bubblers could then be run off the main pump.
OR, you could run all the water features off the main pump because they are usually much lower head loss than a spa jet so running all 5 features should not be an issue.
6 Jets 3" pipe: 17.8 GPM & 1.99 lbf
8 Jets 3" pipe: 16.0 GPM & 1.60 lbf (25% reduction from 6 jets, 3)
6 Jets 2.5" pipe: 16.9 GPM & 1.79 lbf (5% reduction from 6 jets, 3") Out of APSP compliance for suction side velocity (6.79 ft/sec)
8 Jets 2.5" pipe: 14.8 GPM & 1.38 lbf (9% reduction from 8 jets, 3") Out of APSP compliance for suction side velocity (7.95 ft/sec)
For 6 jets, 2.5" or 3" is ok but for 8 jets, you definitely need 3" to maintain less than 6 ft/sec in the suction line.
Also, sheer descents require high flow rates and low head loss so a waterfall pump is really more appropriate for that and doesn't cost as much as a VS. The bubblers could then be run off the main pump.
OR, you could run all the water features off the main pump because they are usually much lower head loss than a spa jet so running all 5 features should not be an issue.
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- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,634
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
ill probably go all or nothing. i can always manually shut in the bubblers. and this will eliminate 2 valves. (edit- 1 valve)
Here are the latest schematics. I separated the pumps to make it easier to read.
edit- im revising for 3 pumps.
edit- im revising for 3 pumps.
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