Plumbing Schematic Review - Help?

[ajw22]

Why do you think you need the Multi-Cyclone Sediment Chamber?

Usually it is not necessary and is just another gadget to maintain and fail.

 

[Brant]

If the heater is leaking or you want to prevent pool water that has damaging chemistry from entering the heater you need valves on both pipes.

you say valves on both pipes? i'm sorry but i do not understand.
is how i have it now correct or is it still wrong?

 

[Brant]

Why do you think you need the Multi-Cyclone Sediment Chamber?

Usually it is not necessary and is just another gadget to maintain and fail.

i added it because i intend to put a manual vacuum suction line upstream the pump. i thought they were recommended to catch larger sediment.

 

[ajw22]

you say valves on both pipes? i'm sorry but i do not understand.
is how i have it now correct or is it still wrong?

Heater inflow pipe and outflow pipe.

You have diverter valve on heater inflow and check valve on heater outflow.

All is good.

 

[ajw22]

i added it because i intend to put a manual vacuum suction line upstream the pump. i thought they were recommended to catch larger sediment.

Do you plan on the manual vacuum being your primary way of cleaning the pool? If not, the cyclone trap is unnecessary for the rare time when you may manually vacuum.

 

[Brant]

Do you plan on the manual vacuum being your primary way of cleaning the pool? If not, the cyclone trap is unnecessary for the rare time when you may manually vacuum.

no, i was going to use a robot for cleaning.

on another topic, is there a minimum distance between the heater and other equipment, fittings, etc? i thought i read something somewhere about this. or just any minimum dimensions in general on the on pad equipment?

 

[ajw22]

on another topic, is there a minimum distance between the heater and other equipment, fittings, etc? i thought i read something somewhere about this. or just any minimum dimensions in general on the on pad equipment?

Refer to the heater installation manual for the clearance requirements.

 

[HermanTX]

on another topic, is there a minimum distance between the heater and other equipment, fittings, etc? i thought i read something somewhere about this. or just any minimum dimensions in general on the on pad equipment?

check your local codes. The heater vent has to be a minimum distance from a door or a window that can be opened. This is due to exhaust.

 

[Brant]

All is good.

On my pool drain and skimmer lines, would you run 2" on all of them or larger? I figured 2" is sufficient for my required flow rates. Since water features will be on a separate pump, I will not be pulling a large volume through the pool drain or skimmers. Or does it make sense to make the pool drain larger in the event that you want to de-inventory the pool?

 

[Brant]

Also, since everyone is suggesting to use a SWCG, does everyone also coat their concrete decking and coping with a sealer such as Prosoco Salt Guard? Or is the salt wear and tear all overhyped?

 

[ajw22]

On my pool drain and skimmer lines, would you run 2" on all of them or larger? I figured 2" is sufficient for my required flow rates. Since water features will be on a separate pump, I will not be pulling a large volume through the pool drain or skimmers. Or does it make sense to make the pool drain larger in the event that you want to de-inventory the pool?

2” is fine. You do not run a modern pool at high flow rates.

Use a submersible pump if it is necessary to drain the pool.

 

[mas985]

From the schematic, it looks like you are planning on using 3/8" venturi tees based upon the flow rate requirement. However, I would not recommend anything less than 15 GPM per jet and to design for up to 19 GPM/jet so you have the option of strong jets.

The plumbing setup as it shows in the drawing is going be short on flow rate at about 12.5 GPM/jet (heater bypassed) which will be fairly weak jets.

Pool Pump Tools v028 - Brant

ReadMe Version:,v028 Disclaimer,These spreadsheets are provided as is without any guarantees or warranty. Every effort has been made to produce reasonable estimates with these modeling tools. However, unknown measurement errors in the CEC/APSP/EnergyStar data may significantly affect the results...

docs.google.com

Sand filters are not designed for high flow rates like that. A cartridge would be a better choice although it wouldn't actually help that much (~14 GPM/jet). If you had a separate plumbing loop for just the jets without any filter, you get up to 16.5 GPM/jet with that pump.

 

[Brant]

From the schematic, it looks like you are planning on using 3/8" venturi tees based upon the flow rate requirement. However, I would not recommend anything less than 15 GPM per jet and to design for up to 19 GPM/jet so you have the option of strong jets.

The plumbing setup as it shows in the drawing is going be short on flow rate at about 12.5 GPM/jet (heater bypassed) which will be fairly weak jets.

Pool Pump Tools v028 - Brant

ReadMe Version:,v028 Disclaimer,These spreadsheets are provided as is without any guarantees or warranty. Every effort has been made to produce reasonable estimates with these modeling tools. However, unknown measurement errors in the CEC/APSP/EnergyStar data may significantly affect the results...

docs.google.com

Sand filters are not designed for high flow rates like that. A cartridge would be a better choice although it wouldn't actually help that much (~14 GPM/jet). If you had a separate plumbing loop for just the jets without any filter, you get up to 16.5 GPM/jet with that pump.

Thanks for looking at this. These points you made have recently become more apparent based on other people comments over the past few days. Attached is the updated schematic. I removed 2 jets (8 to 6) and went with a CCP520 cartridge. I did recognize that the sand filter specified 100 gpm max but that would still put me on the high end which is not good. I considered going to the TR140 but its 900lbs of sand and 36" diameter. Just seems big and unnecessary at this point. I figured that if CYA isn't an issue if I go with salt, why not just switch to a cartridge? Plus since I'm on a well I'd rather not be backflushing and wasting my precious water. Fyi... I used CMPs catalog to size the jets, 13-17 gpm through 3/8" orifice (SPA Master 2). I guess in my mind, this seemed like enough flow. At 102 gpm, I end up at 17 gpm per jet. Is there a way to squeeze more than 100 gpm from my setup or do you think 17 will be acceptable?
Additional feedback is appreciated.

 

[Brant]

 

[HermanTX]

@Brant There was a previous discussion on turnover. No body focuses on that as there are only several reasons to run your pump.
1. to produce chlorine from the SWCG - most of us run the majority of the pump time at 1200 to 1700rpm (max 30gpm or depending on plumbing setup). You need to find the minimum RPM to activate the flow switch in the SWCG then add 200rpm to account for filter getting dirty or any other increase in back pressure to the system. This RPM needed to activate the SWCG will become your minimum pump speed for Pool Mode. I have mine set to run at 1500rpm for 24 hrs a day.
2. skim the pool - some set the min RPM to both activate the SWCG and skim, others may run at a slightly higher RPM for some duration of time to have better skimming action - again dependent on how the plumbing is set up i.e head loss. I get adequate skimming action at 1500rpm
3. Mixing of chemicals - don't always need to increase pump speed for mixing but some do. Mine mixes fine at 1500rpm.
4. Cleaning the pool - for those with either a suction side or a pressure side cleaner, you will set the schedule to operate those as needed and normally requires a higher RPM then for items 1 thru 3). I have to ramp mine up to 2600rpm for my pressure side pool cleaner. Right now it only runs 2x a week. In summer it is about the same or less Only Fall/Winter does it run more times during the week.
5. Run spillover mode to refresh the spa - this does not need to increase pump RPM.

 

[mas985]

Thanks for looking at this. These points you made have recently become more apparent based on other people comments over the past few days. Attached is the updated schematic. I removed 2 jets (8 to 6) and went with a CCP520 cartridge. I did recognize that the sand filter specified 100 gpm max but that would still put me on the high end which is not good. I considered going to the TR140 but its 900lbs of sand and 36" diameter. Just seems big and unnecessary at this point. I figured that if CYA isn't an issue if I go with salt, why not just switch to a cartridge? Plus since I'm on a well I'd rather not be backflushing and wasting my precious water.

I have a cartridge filter and wouldn't consider anything else. They have the least amount of head loss of any filter and require less maintenance when sized properly.

Fyi... I used CMPs catalog to size the jets, 13-17 gpm through 3/8" orifice (SPA Master 2). I guess in my mind, this seemed like enough flow. At 102 gpm, I end up at 17 gpm per jet. Is there a way to squeeze more than 100 gpm from my setup or do you think 17 will be acceptable?
Additional feedback is appreciated.

With a cartridge filter and only 6 jets, plus the other changes in the plumbing, you could expect around 91 GPM total or 15.2 GPM/jet. These would be of moderate strength.

A separate loop with a separate pump, all 3" pipe and no filter, would get you close to 18 GPM/jet. This is the way my spa is plumbed and I would recommend that over sharing a pump between the spa jets and pool. You already have separate spa returns in the plumbing for heating and filtering.

BTW, what is the distance from the pool to pad? I have been assuming 50'. That would only change things a little.

 

[Brant]

@Brant There was a previous discussion on turnover. No body focuses on that as there are only several reasons to run your pump.
1. to produce chlorine from the SWCG - most of us run the majority of the pump time at 1200 to 1700rpm (max 30gpm or depending on plumbing setup). You need to find the minimum RPM to activate the flow switch in the SWCG then add 200rpm to account for filter getting dirty or any other increase in back pressure to the system. This RPM needed to activate the SWCG will become your minimum pump speed for Pool Mode. I have mine set to run at 1500rpm for 24 hrs a day.
2. skim the pool - some set the min RPM to both activate the SWCG and skim, others may run at a slightly higher RPM for some duration of time to have better skimming action - again dependent on how the plumbing is set up i.e head loss. I get adequate skimming action at 1500rpm
3. Mixing of chemicals - don't always need to increase pump speed for mixing but some do. Mine mixes fine at 1500rpm.
4. Cleaning the pool - for those with either a suction side or a pressure side cleaner, you will set the schedule to operate those as needed and normally requires a higher RPM then for items 1 thru 3). I have to ramp mine up to 2600rpm for my pressure side pool cleaner. Right now it only runs 2x a week. In summer it is about the same or less Only Fall/Winter does it run more times during the week.
5. Run spillover mode to refresh the spa - this does not need to increase pump RPM.

yeah, i just left the turnover note on the dwg but figured i would end up running at a lower gpm rate.
so i assume you are pulling water over the skimmer but the drain is also pulling water, right? if so, like 50/50 or less on the drain?
i was planning to use a robot and have the suction side line for a manual vacuum.
on the spa- i'm kinda torn on taking a dedicated return line/overflow out of the system. part of me wants to be able to run the overflow whenever i want without taking the pool off return. whether i want to have the overflow wetting the entire spa spillway or just a trickle to refresh spa water slowly. i was considering running it like this (see picture) so i could just use the dedicated jet line. i also like the idea of being able to keep water going to both the pool and spa in the winter when we get a cold snap. but then part of me wonders if i would still need to run water through that short deadleg between the 3-way pool/spa valve and the spa return jumper otherwise it would freeze. i have a friend that did it on his pool and he likes having the ability to keep water going into his spa slowly all day long.

 

[Brant]

I have a cartridge filter and wouldn't consider anything else. They have the least amount of head loss of any filter and require less maintenance when sized properly.


With a cartridge filter and only 6 jets, plus the other changes in the plumbing, you could expect around 91 GPM total or 15.2 GPM/jet. These would be of moderate strength.

A separate loop with a separate pump, all 3" pipe and no filter, would get you close to 18 GPM/jet. This is the way my spa is plumbed and I would recommend that over sharing a pump between the spa jets and pool. You already have separate spa returns in the plumbing for heating and filtering.

BTW, what is the distance from the pool to pad? I have been assuming 50'. That would only change things a little.

the red x is where the equipment pad is going to be. it's right next to the pool. very short runs and the equipment is flooded. this is about as efficient as i can make it.
do you have a schematic of how your spa is plumbed? i don't know if i totally understand what you are recommending. i feel like the heater is the bottle neck in the system. how would running a separate pump for the spa increase flow? unless you're not running it through the heater???

 

[mas985]

This is what I was proposing. The spa is serviced by two pumps, one for just the jets and the other for the circulation, filtering and heating. You will need separate MDs for the spa jet pump and for the main pump as well. Your plumbing right now is pretty much setup for this since the spa as both jets AND returns. You will need to add another set of spa MD's feeding the spa jet pump and then the return of that pump goes directly to the spa jets. The separate spa returns, remain as they are right now but I would move the 3-way to be able to select either pool or spa returns. The controller should be able to handle the spillover mode so that you don't have to run that way unless you want to.


This drawing is similar to what you would need but not exactly the same. You would want a heater bypass and don't have solar.

 

[HermanTX]

if so, like 50/50 or less on the drain?
i was planning to use a robot and have the suction side line for a manual vacuum.

Yes. I always have a split of main drain to skimmer. Mine is more 80-20 favored to the skimmer

i'm kinda torn on taking a dedicated return line/overflow out of the system. part of me wants to be able to run the overflow whenever i want without taking the pool off return. whether i want to have the overflow wetting the entire spa spillway or just a trickle to refresh spa water slowly. i was considering running it like this (see picture) so i could just use the dedicated jet line. i also like the idea of being able to keep water going to both the pool and spa in the winter when we get a cold snap. but then part of me wonders if i would still need to run water through that short deadleg between the 3-way pool/spa valve and the spa return jumper otherwise it would freeze. i have a friend that did it on his pool and he likes having the ability to keep water going into his spa slowly all day long.

As long as you have the valve on a dedicated return line to the spa when in pool mode it will be controllable. Many pools just rely on the spillover mode for spa circulation 2x a day. I have a dedicated line to the spa when in pool mode, but the connection is buried and there is no valve. The only way I can stop the flow when in pool mode is to plug the exit in the spa. So I have constant spillover so I need to watch my pH. I could plug and use the Spillover Mode but I have never opted to do that as I can manage it.

You have never discussed Automation but most automation units when then enter Freeze Protection will automatically rotate between spa and pool mode every 30 mins or so. So there is no concern about that dead leg not getting circulation. Each mfg of automation has settings for freeze protection.