We made it to gunite... finally!

[sll0037]

I have nothing technical to add on your build because I have no pool building experience. But I will say that I am part of a few forums besides this one (the others are automobile related). This is the only pool forum you need to be on. The details and advice you have received here from the experts on this site are invaluable. I’ve seen these sort of “new build” posts with such detailed information given. These people spend hours upon hours of their personal time helping folks like yourself. You won’t find this level of support on any other type of forum.
Well worth the membership that I pay for the information that these great folks have given me over the years! It’s an incredible group.
…. That’s all I wanted to add, back to your build.

I couldn’t agree more. I’m extremely grateful for this community.

 

[sll0037]

Rebar cage to be straightened to original condition and shape.
Excess dirt to be removed from inside of cage to obtain the required clearance from cage to outside of shell.
Form a wall using drywall between the cage and the cave in area to separate the two and allow for the Shotcrete crew to shoot product on and then correct the unstable area of concern properly.

Thanks for the detailed information.

Interestingly enough, the plumbing system is still holding pressure, though I assume they’ll need to replace those sections anyway.

 

[sll0037]

The hits keep coming... we had a good amount of rain today and it's still coming down.

The walls are eroding even worse... the deep end bench is all but gone. I'm starting to get really worried.

Not much work happened this week... Monday they dugout the cave ins and Tuesday the rebar was bent back into shape, but it was crickets Wednesday.

I had a tough conversation with the builder today. We should have never started digging if the builder wasn't sure we could gunite before Thanksgiving. It seems they had no sense of urgency and now we are paying the consequences for leaving the dig open so long.

I was also shocked with a change order today that included several thousands of dollars in charges for items I'd made sure to include in the original agreement and we'd discussed at length before.

I was quite shocked to see a $2k charge for upgrading to 2.5" return lines when the return loop is actually 1.5" and only transitions to 2" back to the pad. Seems ridiculously expensive, but maybe I'm wrong.

All that to say, I'm trying to stay positive.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Prepping for rain can be difficult but will help with erosion.

 

[sll0037]

Prepping for rain can be difficult but will help with erosion.View attachment 542754View attachment 542755View attachment 542756

Any sort of prep would have been nice. That’s really nice prep work you shared.

The builder sent me that change order on Monday and I replied immediately with my position on each charge, then he didn’t respond until I reached out today.

I’d already previously expressed my concern about the rain today since it’s been forecast since last week but the builder did nothing.

I got home from a long day at work and fell asleep putting my two year old to sleep… woke up at 2a in a panic since 5 of my downspouts had been removed so there I was at 2a reconnecting them and attaching some hose to the ones pointing directly at the pool to direct water to the sides and away to try to help.

 

[sll0037]

@JamesW You seem to be pretty good at water flow calculations, so maybe you can lend your insight here.

I will have a dedicated pump for my water features, not sure the model yet but I think it might be water feature specific.

• Is at actually better to go VS pump here too?

Water Features

• 3 Bubblers (10" Deep)
• 3 Sheer Descents (about 60 feet from pad)
  • 2ft + 3ft + 2ft = 7ft length total

Am I correct in assuming we need about 10 gpm of flow for each foot of sheer descent, so about 70 gpm of flow total for the water falls?

Best I can tell, water features are currently plumbed as follows:

• Dedicated 2.5" Wall Suction for Water Features (straight to pump, and back out)
• Dedicated Water Features Pump
• 1.5" for Bubblers. looped at the tanning ledge
• 2" from Pad to water features, then reduces to 1.5" when the piping enters the pool to each water fall.

If it matters, the water features will be valved so that I can run the waterfalls and bubblers simultaneously, or just the bubblers, or just the waterfalls.

Will it matter much if the last 35 feet is reduced to 1.5" for the waterfalls?

I brought this up to my builder and he thought it was all plumbed in 1.5" with the usual, "I always do them that way. We don't want to go too big on pipe because it'll reduce pressure"

When I showed him the below, he said he'd take a look and fix it next week if needed because I was right, but I suspect he'll argue that since some of the feed is 2", it'll be fine with the reduction to 1.5".

I just want to be sure this will work optimally, because the wall cave in took down the waterfall piping and it'll have to be redone anyway at the actual water feature wall.

 

[kimkats]

that included several thousands of dollars in charges for items I'd made sure to include in the original agreement and we'd discussed at length before.

Say what??? PLEASE tell me you have everything you talked with them about in writing!! That could be text or email or, even better, in the contract.

 

[Ahultin]

Is at actually better to go VS pump here too

We used a vs pump for our water features and matched it to the circ pump. The thought process here was this gives me an easily swapped backup pump should the need arise in the future. It also gave me better control of features as if we are only using deck jets we run the pump at a much lower speed. I also have it run nightly at a low speed to keep from having water stagnate in the features while also not costing a ton.

 

[sll0037]

Say what??? PLEASE tell me you have everything you talked with them about in writing!! That could be text or email or, even better, in the contract.

Thankfully, I’m pretty detailed so 95% of what we discussed is in email and text.

For example, he was charging me $2200 for the chiller install but before I signed the contract, I asked him to include the chiller install, plumbing, and electrical… he agreed and I added it to the agreement when I signed it and sent it over because he didn’t list it. He tried to say he didn’t remember it, then stated it was actually only $660 and he’d misread the plumbing invoice his contractor sent him, then he said he’d just eat that cost after I asked him to check the contract.

He said he’d just planned to plumb it into the returns and I told him why would you do that when the manufacturer calls for a dedicated return and I showed you that from the beginning.

He even told me SCP couldn’t get him a Glacier chiller for over a year. I ordered one on Saturday and it was delivered this Tuesday.

It’s even more massive that I imagined.

We’ll see how the $2000 plumbing charge gets resolved for “upgrading to 2.5” and sweeps vs straight 90s.

Mind you this was after he said they always use 2.5” on the suction side for the pool, 3” on the spa suction, and 2” everywhere else except the return loop.

I’m trying to stay composed and kind, but I’m certainly not too happy at the moment.

 

[HermanTX]

Mind you this was after he said they always use 2.5” on the suction side for the pool, 3” on the spa suction, and 2” everywhere else except the return loop.

This is a good set up and keep reinforcing that back to the PB. Some older pools may only have 2” as suction for both pool and spa - many newer pools move to the 2.5“ and 3” based on what I have seen in the forum.
J
I do hope the PB makes all the right repairs to the cave ins to ensure you have a good gunite structure. Keep us posted on the outcome

 

[davecraze]

Any sort of prep would have been nice. That’s really nice prep work you shared.

The builder sent me that change order on Monday and I replied immediately with my position on each charge, then he didn’t respond until I reached out today.

I’d already previously expressed my concern about the rain today since it’s been forecast since last week but the builder did nothing.

I got home from a long day at work and fell asleep putting my two year old to sleep… woke up at 2a in a panic since 5 of my downspouts had been removed so there I was at 2a reconnecting them and attaching some hose to the ones pointing directly at the pool to direct water to the sides and away to try to help.

If it makes you feel better (it probably doesn’t, I know), when it rains that hard it likely doesn’t matter what level of prep you do.

This was my prep and we still have massive cave ins that required large sections of the earthen walls to be rebuilt with plywood before gunite. Even worse, my gunite was priced on time and materials (none of the four gunite companies my builder frequently uses would deliver a fixed price bid on the project), so all the extra gunite to fill the voids was on my dime. I was all over the builder on the remediation work for that reason. It was still a good bit over but not obscenely so.

 

[sll0037]

If it makes you feel better (it probably doesn’t, I know), when it rains that hard it likely doesn’t matter what level of prep you do.

This was my prep and we still have massive cave ins that required large sections of the earthen walls to be rebuilt with plywood before gunite. Even worse, my gunite was priced on time and materials (none of the four gunite companies my builder frequently uses would deliver a fixed price bid on the project), so all the extra gunite to fill the voids was on my dime. I was all over the builder on the remediation work for that reason. It was still a good bit over but not obscenely so.

View attachment 543142

Wow that actually looks pretty good. I understand some cave ins you just can't stop. I'm just ready to gunite and hopefully before we start getting freezes.

There is a crew here today mucking out the pool again and forming the walls with plywood. Hopefully all goes well.

I was scrambling last Friday to find the channel drains, as the pool builder was unaware they have a 3-6 week lead time. Thankfully, I was able to source the three channel drains I needed from a supplier in Arizona, so they should be here Wednesday. I was also able to order my flush mount pool returns, floor returns, and umbrella holders.

On the bright side, I did order a bunch of pool items during Black Friday/Cyber week, so that's exciting.

1. Glacier Pool Chiller
2. Ledge Lounger Autograph Chaises and Ice Table
3. ProTuff Pole and Nets
4. Dolphin E70 Robot

 

[ajw22]

If there is a delay in shotcreting some builders will arrange for the shotcrete crew to come by at the end of the day and flash the rebar where they use their leftover shotcrete and put a thin layer on the dig and rebar to cover and stabilize it all until the full application.

 

[sll0037]

If there is a delay in shotcreting some builders will arrange for the shotcrete crew to come by at the end of the day and flash the rebar where they use their leftover shotcrete and put a thin layer on the dig and rebar to cover and stabilize it all until the full application.

The builder has mentioned this but they aren't sure if the city will approve this method.

I think they're going to move ahead with the plywood walls... hopefully the weather blesses us with zero rain until at least Tuesday of next week and the plywood holds the dry caves we've been constantly getting.

I doubt they'll gunite Friday/Saturday... just seems like a lot of work to finish before then.

I did hear our project manager say they'll likely still fill those huge voids with gunite, which seems crazy, as he mentioned the gunite used will be substantially more.

Is there a downside to having those huge voids filled with gunite? I'm wondering if those large lateral pieces that extend beyond the walls will cause stress on the wall itself with the downward pressure of the soil, etc.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Some crews will use baged cement powder and hand thrown on the walls and edges of the dirt, not an answer for a heavy rain or downpour.

 

[sll0037]

It seems my builder is moving at a snails pace.

They started muck out on Monday and they still aren’t done.

Then we’ll need rebar out here to add steel for the deep end shelf since the soil all but washed away. They also need to add steel for a spa seat they dug out by accident. They’ll also need be adding steel for the water feature wall.

Then plumbing needs to come out to repair the waterfall piping, return loop piping, and place the three channel drains and two floor returns.

Then inspection. Then gunite.

At this rate, I think we’ll be lucky to gunite Wednesday of next week.

The forms are not what I imagined. Is this right?

 

[davecraze]

My plywood forms were similar to that, but they were all nailed together. Some of those plywood sheets look loose, unless they aren't done with them yet.

And, yes, the mucking out takes a long time as it very tedious work.

 

[sll0037]

My plywood forms were similar to that, but they were all nailed together. Some of those plywood sheets look loose, unless they aren't done with them yet.

And, yes, the mucking out takes a long time as it very tedious work.

Thanks Dave. I’m losing my patience and sanity at this point.

 

[sll0037]

Update: More cave-ins even after the builder claimed they were done forming the walls up and were ready for rebar after yesterday. The rebar crew (one guy) showed up today and left right away. He was just like nope, not ready. lol.

It feels like amateur hour over here. The most vulnerable wall on the far side of the pool caved in again yesterday and took the form boards and steel with it.

The builder's landscaping crew (he own's a landscaping business) are the folks he has out here mucking out and I don't think they have a clue on how to properly form the walls up because the wall that caved in again last night had the braces supported by the steel, and nothing else.

In theory, the builder is thinking that forming the walls up will contain any cave in dirt behind the board to make it a non issue, but what's actually happening is the walls are caving in and pushing the form boards onto the steel, thereby bending the steel as well. There are many places where the boards are touching the steel with loose dirt behind them.

If you notice, they are also not forming the walls all the way up, instead hoping that about half way up will simply catch the dirt that falls behind the walls.

Now my project manager just got back from the city office and he obtained approval to flash the walls with gunite without covering any of the steel or ground wires, etc.

• Is there anything I need to be mindful of to make sure the flash coat is done correctly?
• Should I be looking for a certain thickness?
• Does it matter if they coat over any loose dirt that's already fallen, or should that be removed?

Overall, I understand that some things are uncontrollable, but I feel like we're suffering the consequences of poor quality work, like poorly framing the walls to begin with. I feel like I'm at war with my builder already, so it's not a happy place to be.

Any advice or pictures from those with experience building or owners going through similar build experiences out there would be super helpful.

 

[ajw22]

There needs to be at least a 3 inch gap between the rebar and the walls and floor to allow for adequate encapsulation of the rebar by the shotcrete/gunite. Make sure the rebar is adequately away from the surfaces and forms.