Get a SWCG, "it will be great" they said......

[Oly]

Matt these plates are locked in tight and offset in this cell housing. Opening it up with a sawsall or hammer would be the only way to get a good look. Hard to imagine how the Ruthy coating could have been damaged that bad, that fast to cause this situation with only zip tie cleanings all of season 1and only recent use of 1:10 MA solution in addition. If I can limp this cell through until winter perhaps I can send it to CPool for evaluation.
Right now I am monitoring the cells performance and hoping the problem does not repeat.

Cena-sea, there is a polarity shift occurring at each new cycle that can be confirmed reading the voltage and amperage display. The cycles run just over 200 minutes if I remember correctly and my system is set at 65%.

Thanks for all the mind power here. It difficult for me to hash this out with the retailer due to the unique perspectives and so many potential issues possibly involved.

 

[markayash]

View attachment 452043

Bailey’s over ice. Color and taste are all good … phew thank goodness we saved the Bailey’s …

Ok, now what’s the issue with this SWG?

That's not a chemist answer, your suppose to say stuff like " when Sugar and water mix they form another chemical which can oxidant if left between 76.2 and 81.3 degrees for 2 to 4 weeks" LOL

 

[JamesW]

I did the fizz test and there was a rapid reaction and the sample was completely dissolved after a bit of agitation.

Fizzing indicates the creation of carbon dioxide gas, which indicates calcium carbonate.

Very odd that you are getting the rapid buildup with a low CSI.

Maybe you are getting some other calcium scale at the same time like calcium phosphate and that is creating a nucleation site to promote the formation of calcium carbonate.

If you continue to get this much scale, I would probably try a phosphate remover.

Test for phosphate and sulfate.

 

[mgtfp]

So there may be significant areas of the plates that are just electrolyzing water into hydrogen, hydroxide and oxygen. This is typically what you see in an old electrolysis cell - the coating is gone, the chlorine gas output drops, and the chemistry changes significantly.

I had never thought about that. But I'm wondering if that's (without the phosphates, I keep them low) what was happening in my old SWG that came with the house. It was ages old, but still producing chlorine, so I kept it running. I always had the impression that I had a TA rise that is higher than expected by just fill water. My fill water TA is below 40ppm, and even in times of high rain, TA kept rising. I always thought it's because of chlorine gas outgassing, which didn't really make sense because my return line is quite long.

I never thought about some of the chlorine gas never being created in the first place due to the Ru partially gone, resulting in a surplus of hydrogen (and OH-) being created at the cathode. But that makes a lot of sense now.

I had to descale (normal looking scale, don't think phosphates involved there) the plates about twice a year with CSI always in the negatives. That's after adding Borates, before Borates I had to descale every couple of months.

End of last summer I bought a new SWG and I don't see a sign of scale yet (clear cell housing). And TA seems to trend lower now. But I haven't had the cell really run full power yet, just putsing along through winter (it doesn't shut down in winter, just halves the chlorine output, and my cell doesn't duty-cycle, it reduces the cell current to adjust chlorine output). The real test will come in summer.

Don't want to hijack here, just adding my experiences regarding the production of hydrogen surplus. I like that hypothesis.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I had never thought about that. But I'm wondering if that's (without the phosphates, I keep them low) what was happening in my old SWG that came with the house. It was ages old, but still producing chlorine, so I kept it running. I always had the impression that I had a TA rise that is higher than expected by just fill water. My fill water TA is below 40ppm, and even in times of high rain, TA kept rising. I always thought it's because of chlorine gas outgassing, which didn't really make sense because my return line is quite long.

I never thought about some of the chlorine gas never being created in the first place due to the Ru partially gone, resulting in a surplus of hydrogen (and OH-) being created at the cathode. But that makes a lot of sense now.

I had to descale (normal looking scale, don't think phosphates involved there) the plates about twice a year with CSI always in the negatives. That's after adding Borates, before Borates I had to descale every couple of months.

End of last summer I bought a new SWG and I don't see a sign of scale yet (clear cell housing). And TA seems to trend lower now. But I haven't had the cell really run full power yet, just putsing along through winter (it doesn't shut down in winter, just halves the chlorine output, and my cell doesn't duty-cycle, it reduces the cell current to adjust chlorine output). The real test will come in summer.

Don't want to hijack here, just adding my experiences regarding the production of hydrogen surplus. I like that hypothesis.

Without being able to see the plate surfaces, it’s all just guesses. The ruthenium coating doesn’t last forever and it can be chemically and physically damaged with age. It can also spall off if the manufacturing process went bad. These plates are mass manufactured thousands at a time in a batch coating process (I used to do these types of coating processes in my former life). It is entirely possible to get bad batches and entirely possible that they skirt by quality control (assuming there is any QCA). So who knows.

When these cells are brand new and the coating is in its virgin state, they produce very little calcium scale. With age and wear, the coating starts to fail and calcium flakes start to appear. You can easily go years with a cell “spitting snowflakes” before it completely fails. So it’s hard to say what is truly bad versus what is “start saving up for new one” …

 

[mgtfp]

So it’s hard to say what is truly bad versus what is “start saving up for new one” …

It certainly served me well. According to the documentation that the old owner left (which was meticulous), the SWG was installed in 2005, and the cell got replaced once in 2007, I suspect a warrenty replacement. And the shop where it was bought and were I keep buying my hardware confirmed that. After that time the costing can't have been too good anymore. Still have the cell somewhere. When I get around to it I might take some pictures.

No I have to go through my pantry searching for unopened bottles of liquor if I want to really hijack this thread for valid reasons.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

No I have to go through my pantry searching for unopened bottles of liquor if I want to really hijack this thread for valid reasons.

It was kind of like finding a $20 bill in the pocket of a pair of jeans … I was like, “oh that’s cool, I should really drink that …”. I mean, it was totally a gift that someone gave me so I’m duty-bound by etiquette to drink it all …

 

[JoyfulNoise]

And, of course, with the passing of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth this morning, I will be raising a glass in her honor for an amazing life well-lived … in spite of all the dysfunctional brats, knaves, and ne'er-do-well’s that make up her family …

 

[JamesW]

Calcium silicate is an interesting idea as well as I did just clean and recharge my DE filter with silicon dioxide, DE prior to this rapid cell fouling.

Regular pool DE has never been an issue with causing any issues as far as I know.

Something unusual for sure.

Is Circupool going to help in some way?

What do they recommend?

 

[JamesW]

And, of course, with the passing of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth this morning, I will be raising a glass in her honor for an amazing life well-lived … in spite of all the dysfunctional brats, knaves, and ne'er-do-well’s that make up her family …

In case you need more reasons to drink the Bailey’s, here are some other notable events that happened on this day.

President Gerald Ford pardons his disgraced predecessor Richard M. Nixon for any crimes he may have committed or participated in while in office (1974)

The first episode of the sci-fi series Star Trek aired on American television (1966)

Michelangelo's the David was unveiled in the Piazza della Signoria in Florence; considered a masterpiece, the sculpture is one of the defining works of the Renaissance (1504)

 

[red-beard]

Also, does anyone know if Baily’s Irish Cream goes bad? I found a bottle in the back of my pantry and it says “Best before Oct 2022”. It’s been in the pantry for years.

And yes, that question is a “hijack” but I was nice in my previous post and and stayed on point …

Yes - and Limoncello

 

[Oly]

CP recommends filling the cell housing with 1:4 MA until the reaction stops, from the owners manual. Not sure I have a valid complaint until I follow their recommendation. They also stated that the cleaning process may involve 2 or 3 cleanings. I was waiting for this process to proceed before reaching out to CP again. Of course I expect I will be obligated to support my water chemistry and detail my phosphate and TDS levels before getting close to resolving this.
Just monitored the cell data and currently sitting at 22 volts, -5.75 amps, 3000 ppm salt at 90.5f water temp. This is a significant drop from this morning but still operating do far. I just ramped up the pump rpm from 1350 to 2300rpm for a bit and the amps rose to -6.2 and salt level 3400ppm so that is interesting.
I may be stocking up on some liquid chlorine to see me through the weekend.

 

[mgtfp]

And, of course, with the passing of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth this morning, I will be raising a glass in her honor for an amazing life well-lived … in spite of all the dysfunctional brats, knaves, and ne'er-do-well’s that make up her family …

Yes, sad morning here. Sometimes keep forgetting that we actually still have a Monarchy here.

Well, I hope I find something in that pantry until tonight to have a glass or two to honour her life.

 

[JamesW]

And, of course, with the passing of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth this morning, I will be raising a glass in her honor for an amazing life well-lived …

I still remember the coronation like it was yesterday.

She had a good life.

 

[HermanTX]

I still remember the coronation like it was yesterday.

She had a good life.

The coronation was in 1953. ???

 

[Oly]

My SWCG has become unreliable.
After cleaning #2 in as many days the cell had a low salt shut down after another 8 hours at 65%. A clean cell, normal high salt (4500ppm) reading in the morning with a strong amp number falls off after several cycles and finally shuts down mid afternoon with a salt ppm of 2000. Water temps from cell sensor start at 85f in the am to 92f when it shuts down. Once removed the plates are full of soft scale 90% of which can be hosed out.
The cell is producing the expected rate of chlorine when its running. I have assumed the unit is cycling the polarity properly and I have observed the amps displayed in + and - but the voltage is not displayed as negative when the amps are negative. I will need follow the cycle times closer to be sure what's going on. Not sure now if this is a controller issue, a cell issue or a sudden water chemistry issue. So many rabbit holes. I will reach out to CPool next week if I'm still stuck.

I have done nothing to change the water chemistry this season other than keep my pH at or below 7.4 and that follows a top off of my source water which is north of 150ppm. My water chemistry has been the same after lowering my TA in the spring of 2021. This sudden cell fouling is a new issue. Typical cell maintenance for me is 30-45 days.

I have pulled the cell and cleaned it again this time using the CP recommended method. I will install it again Sunday night and try a night run. When this system works (for 1.5 seasons) it is a wonderful thing, when things go sideways it can get ugly in a hurry it seems.
Stocked up on 10% liquid and still have a half a bucket of Tri tabs so I will make it through this issue, but what a hassle.

 

[Texas Splash]

I have observed the amps displayed in + and - but the voltage is not displayed as negative when the amps are negative.

My volts never goes negative either, only the amps. You can see my numbers in Post #54 f my thread (below). The recommended 4-1 ration of water to MA worked well for my cell.

Circupool RJ-45 Production Test

GENERATING: Volts: 20.7 - 22.4; AMPS: -4.76 to -5.66 and 4.86 to 5.45; SALINITY NOW: 2,920 - 3,790; This is too much difference. The amps and instant salinity should be the same, or very close, in both polarities. It seems like one polarity is underperforming. Based on the amps, the...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[JamesW]

This is a very unusual case.

I have never seen such a rapid scaling as this.

The fact that it is soft is also unusual.

It might be a mix of different types of scale.

Borates might help.

Check the phosphate level.

Maybe try a phosphate reduction treatment, but I have no idea if it will do anything to help.

 

[Oly]

Thanks Pat and James, I see a step by step process of elimination and testing in my near future before I can make any real progress with this. I am close to determining if the cell cleaning method has any effect. I will need to go deeper in the water contaminate possibility before making a case about mechanical failure with CPool.

 

[red-beard]

You are running 65% on the Salt Cell. I have a 25,000 gallon pool. Maybe you should run more hours at less time. I run 24 hours a day at about 25% and I'm further south with stronger sun.