*Shallow end, being shocked when grabbing railing*

[JamesW]

The pond probably has some sort of pump.

If the pump is submersible, it could be leaking current.

It might be a three phase pump.

I would ask the pond owner to check their equipment and the area in general for stray current.

 

[JamesW]

It can be difficult to get the pond owner or the power company to take you seriously.

You just have to stay on them.

If you get to the point where you feel like you need to get their attention more, maybe send an email something like this:

Hi, I am getting some stray current around my pool.

I think that it might be coming from the high voltage lines near the main road.

Can you please tell me how to test for voltage leaking?

What should the voltage be?

Where do I put the test leads?

Do I need to get into the junction boxes?

If yes, do I need a special tool or do they just pop right open?

Can you recommend any good books on electricity?

I have read “Electricity for Dummies” and it is pretty good, but I still don’t understand everything.

Also, sometimes, when I work on electricity, my whole body gets tingly and my legs go numb.

Is that a bad thing, or is that just normal?

Anywho, thanks in advance.

Joe Customer.

Just kidding (sort of).

Just the thought of someone trying to mess with the high voltage will get their attention.

If you can Safely map out some voltages in the area, that show a general direction, that can be helpful.

 

[Mike1162]

I did voltage mapping today. I should have a bit of time tomorrow to do this, but I'll post all of my findings and put it on the map. Before I hop off, I was getting 50 - 110mA AC around my house with the ground wire attached to the pump. Ok, I'll post the rest hopefully by tomorrow. Thanks everyone!

50 -110 milliamps or millivolts?
Was 110 the highest reading in the yard?

 

[JamesW]

One suggestion I would make is to dig a hole in the yard wherever it is convenient 18” in diameter and 12 feet deep.

Fill in two feet with rock and then put in a 10 foot long 12” diameter pipe.

Make sure that the pipe is permeable to water and fill in around the pipe with rock.

This will give you a way to monitor the ground water and pump it out as needed.

If the groundwater is touching the pool, that is going to significantly increase any stray current.

Keeping the yard dry will reduce any stray current.

You will also be able to test from the ground water to a reference point to see if the water is charged.

Make sure that the dig is safe and don’t hit anything underground and be prepared if the water in the ground is charged.

 

[HeyEng]

One suggestion I would make is to dig a hole in the yard wherever it is convenient 18” in diameter and 12 feet deep.

Fill in two feet with rock and then put in a 10 foot long 12” diameter pipe.

Make sure that the pipe is permeable to water and fill in around the pipe with rock.

This will give you a way to monitor the ground water and pump it out as needed.

If the groundwater is touching the pool, that is going to significantly increase any stray current.

Keeping the yard dry will reduce any stray current.

You will also be able to test from the ground water to a reference point to see if the water is charged.

Make sure that the dig is safe and don’t hit anything underground and be prepared if the water in the ground is charged.

Is this one of your A/I posts? A hole 18" wide and 12 feet deep? Really? That's digging a well.

 

[JamesW]

 

[Newdude]

That's digging a well.

*Well*. (Hehe). If the over saturated ground is explaining the as of yet unexplainable….. then getting rid of the water would in theory solve most/all of the stray voltage problem.

Since post #1, voltage has had zero business being broadcast in the backyard. Having the electric feed pass the pool with the sewer easement would have answered SO many seemingly impossible questions but that didn’t pan out. IMHO the ground water / sump / spillover is going to be the next likeliest culprit.

 

[JamesW]

@gamerfan2004, can you get some pictures of the pond area and all electrical equipment, transformers, switches, meters, poles, wires etc?

I suspect that the pond pump could be a potential source of the electricity.

Maybe something related to the power lines that are nearby?

Listen for any equipment that is humming or buzzing.

 

[Newdude]

+1. And see if you could get a good pic of the stuffs here and anywhere it appears to go. James found what appears to be power to the sump, possibly with honking pump(s) because there are 2 legs coming out of the shutoff. See if you can get clear pics and the amp rating on the meter.

 

[Bperry]

I’m curious why there isn’t any consideration that the voltage is being generated on site rather than from across the street? I suppose since the voltage goes away during a power outage, that may be what rules out something like galvanic corrosion reaction with elements in the soil along with water.

I once had a heck of a time trying to figure out why the new aluminum radiators in my old truck kept leaking after only a few weeks and discovered that just filling it with water as it came from the box, I could measure voltage between the water and the radiator body. Once it was in the truck, I could measure the voltage build up over time and that would eat away the solder joints in the radiator allowing it to leak in three brand new radiators. Once I grounded the radiator body to the chassis ground, my problem went away.

Is something like that not possible to be in play here? Why wouldn’t the bond wire and system electrical grounding take care of it even if it came from across the street or even next door?

 

[Newdude]

I’m curious why there isn’t any consideration that the voltage is being generated on site rather than from across the street

OP kills his main breaker and the voltage is still there. The power co lifts the house service at the transformer and the voltage is still there.

Why wouldn’t the bond wire and system electrical grounding take care of it even if it came from across the street or even next door

We have reason to believe that the bonding grid is compromised for a second issue. Fixing that still won’t remove the voltage from it.

This has been a doozy. No doubt.

 

[Bperry]

OP kills his main breaker and the voltage is still there. The power co lifts the house service at the transformer and the voltage is still there.

We have reason to believe that the bonding grid is compromised for a second issue. Fixing that still won’t remove the voltage from it.

This has been a doozy. No doubt.

But a combination of acidic soil and elements in the soil or cement decking might generate a voltage through galvanic action. But this theory would seem to be negated by the voltage going away when the neighborhood power went out. Did it really cease when during a neighborhood power outage? It just seems like such a remote chance for something off property to be causing it and even lower chance of someone doing something about it. Seems there needs to be a way to mitigate it no matter where it comes from.

 

[Newdude]

But this theory would seem to be negated by the voltage going away when the neighborhood power went out

Exactly. They kill the neighborhood and the voltage goes away, but the potato clock / galvanic action would still persist.

just seems like such a remote chance for something off property to be causing it

We have a lot of oddball theories going but the easiest to be true would be the leeching field / sump behind the house saturating the area. Which has been confirmed to have its own power going into/near it.

and even lower chance of someone doing something about it

Agreed. And also why there are many pros involved who are stumped.

Seems there needs to be a way to mitigate it no matter where it comes from

In my lay person head, that would be mitigating it from its place of origin, either not changing anything, or making it worse with more points of contact. But I’m way over my pay grade here so anyone feel free to smack this one down.

 

[mas985]

At this point, everything is on the table. Although I don't think a galvanic action could create that much voltage and current. Because, there was a lot of construction in the area, high voltage power lines, and what seems to be kluge for powering the ponds pump, these seem much more likely to me.

But the closer the voltage source, the higher the gradients and absolute voltage one would see on the property. Here is a simulation of 120v stray voltage at the pond and at the transformer across the street. The transformer case has 2x the voltage. But the property owner of the house with the transformer would have dangerously high voltage near the transformer and would have surely been discovered it by now. The pond case, nobody might notice that because there are not a lot of people walking/working in that area.

A way to mitigate the problem for at least the pool is to install grounding rods around the boundary of the deck. This would lower the voltage in the area to something acceptable. But the problem should be fixed and the power company needs to be notified of the issue. One should not have to mitigate this type of problem.

 

[Mike1162]

But a combination of acidic soil and elements in the soil or cement decking might generate a voltage through galvanic action.

One of the few things we know is that the stray voltage is AC. Wouldn't the type of voltage you're talking about be DC?

 

[Bperry]

One of the few things we know is that the stray voltage is AC. Wouldn't the type of voltage you're talking about be DC?

I think that’s correct, assuming the voltage is confirmed to really be AC.

 

[JamesW]

One of the few things we know is that the stray voltage is AC. Wouldn't the type of voltage you're talking about be DC?

Correct, galvanic is DC.

The waveform is AC or rectified DC.

Pure DC is a straight line on the oscilloscope.

AC or rectified DC is a sine wave or a modified sine wave like a triangle wave.

 

[JamesW]

Bonding wire detached | No power | Testing voltage at timer

In this video, the waveform goes from a sine wave to a triangle wave.

To me, it seems significant.

Overall, it’s difficult to follow everything without being onsite.

I still think that using the oscilloscope between the ground and water while injecting a signal onto the line with a wire tracer toner/signal generator would be helpful.

Or, just watch the signal as you connect and disconnect things to see if there are any significant changes.

Everything seems to be 60 hz, but I don’t know if that rules out any source or not.

Maybe email the various utilities with pictures of the waveforms to see if the pattern means anything to anyone.

Even a DC signal can have a frequency, which is shown in the below video and the waveform is more triangular, which might point to a DC source from a bridge rectifier.

Bridge Rectifier

View attachment 360177
View attachment 360176
View attachment 360187

 

[HeyEng]

+1. And see if you could get a good pic of the stuffs here and anywhere it appears to go. James found what appears to be power to the sump, possibly with honking pump(s) because there are 2 legs coming out of the shutoff. See if you can get clear pics and the amp rating on the meter.
View attachment 365427

If it's accessible, I would just turn it off and then check voltage @ the pool. I think that would be the fastest way to see if it's the culprit.

 

[mas985]

Did anyone else notice the ducks swimming in the pond. Even though the pictures are two years old, they probably still visit and if that water was energized by 120v, there should be at least one dead duck around that pond. The gradients would be very high between the source and near the grounding posts. It just seems to me given the proximity to a neutral ground that the breakers should trip if the hot was exposed anywhere near there. I would also expect that regulations require a GFCI installation which should also trip. Yeah I know, people screw up but the more I think about it, the less convinced I am about an exposed 120v line. That just seems like an extreme cause that someone else would have noticed by now. I think it may be more subtle than that like an unbalanced load (3-phase or split phase) that can also cause stray voltage. There is definitely current traveling underground but it doesn't need to be an exposed wire to cause that.