please help this pool badly needs a rehaul

[ka0ttic]

I am hoping someone can help. I've been dealing with this nightmare pool for almost 3 years now. I am too the point I just want to redo the pump, filter, and plumbing. I also need to hire someone to leak check the pool itself.

This pool is roughly 14,000 gallons (27x14 (3ft-6ft deep) plus 4x14 "spa" (3ft deep)). It has a water fall and an affinity edge that drains into the "spa". I say "spa" because it is more like a catch pool but they put spa jets in it... Below I will insert a drawing of everything.

The current pump, if I remember correctly, is a marathon 1.5hp single speed. The label is too faded now to verify, unfortunately. The filter is a Jandy CS150 cartridge filter. 150sqft / 125GPM. The plumbing is 2 inch.

At some point, it had a popup system. The 24 popups (4 rows of 6) are still present but the system itself was gone before we bought the house. I see what looks like 3-4" plumbing that has been capped so I am assuming that is from the popup system. I am not sure if the plumbing for those is still connected to everything else or not.

Since day 1, our biggest issue has been not being able to maintain the water level in the "spa" when the plumbing for that was turned on. The water seemed to drain in the spa faster than the pool could refill it. I tried every possible combination of valve settings and could never get it right so most of the time I ended up having that turned off which meant I was constantly refilling the pool and had to worry about the water level going below the skimmer if the kids jumped too much. With the affinity edge it doesn't take long for 1000 gallons to splash into the "spa". I am guessing there is a leak either in the pool or the spa that is causing this. There is one spot under the water fall where there was a pool light once that has been patched. That's a good candidate I am guessing.

Finally, we just gave up probably 6 months ago. Everything just slowly got worse until finally something started leaking near where the pump and filter is. I should have posted this years ago but honestly we just did not have the money at the time.

Can anyone give some advice on choosing a pump and filter for this setup? I would like to stay with a cartridge filter, if possible. I have read a bunch of stuff for trying to size a pool pump but I always get jammed up when trying to calculate the total dynamic head for this particular pool. I don't know what the deal is with the popup plumbing.

I am hoping by replacing the pump and filter, redoing the plumbing, and leak checking/fixing the pool that we can finally have a decent working pool.






Here is a picture of what I am assuming is the popup plumbing that has been capped.

 

[HermanTX]

Welcome to TFP. You have come to the right place for help.
Sorry you have such a mess on your plate with the pool plumbing.
Maybe help out by either posting pictures or make of drawing of your current plumbing as it is working now.
As you noted, the in floor cleaning system may not be functioning so we need to understand what is functioning.

So when in pool mode - which jets have water exiting? Is it only those in the pool, or both pool and spa.

Similarly, when in spa mode, what jets have water exiting? Is it only those in the spa?
The spa should overflow to the pool and not the other way around. That is unless your plumbing is completely different set up.

We need to see pictures of the suction pipes and valves leading to your pump and also the pipe and valves exiting your filter and returning to the pool. You show a skimmer and bottom drain in the pool and a bottom drain in the spa. Therefore you should have 3 suction lines to your pump. Is that accurate?

You show a waterfall. Is that operational? Does it work on a separate pump or is fed from the main pool pump?

Also, how are you chlorinating your pool? Show that as well.

I have noted a request to @ajw22 & @Jimrahbe to review as they both have good views on plumbing.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Ka,

We need to see several pics of the entire equipment pad, so we can figure out what is what..

I'd also like to see a pic or two of the spa and affinity edge.. I have never heard of a pool flowing into the spa.. That is just totally backwards and makes no sense at all.. It will be interesting to see...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[ka0ttic]

Here are the ones I took last night. Please forgive the tall grass. I can try and get better ones during the day if needed, but I am at work at the moment.

I will post pictures of the spa and affinity edge when I get home.

There isn't really a pool or spa mode, just a combination of valves. In "pool" mode, I basically just have the returns and suctions to/from the spa turned off at the valves. This has been my normal mode of operation usually since I can't maintain water level in the spa regardless of what combination of valves I use.

There are technically two spa returns as you can see below. One is the spa jet and one is the spa drain. I found that out the hard way when we first bought the house and drained the entire pool into the spa through the spa floor drain...... I don't know much about pools but I am pretty sure the spa drain shouldn't be allowed to flow both ways?

In "spa" mode, all the I have tried every combination of valves I can think of. I have tried turning on the spa drain 100% (this seemed to work the best and provided the most flow of water back into the spa but after 8-12 hours or so the spa is almost empty) sucking water from the spa and then the pool would refill it from the affinity edge. I have tried sucking water from the spa drain and then returning water from both the affinity edge and the spa jet but that didn't work well either.

The waterfall is operational. There is only the one pump.

Here is the whole pad:



Returns (pool returns through jets and/or waterfall) and spa through drain and/or jet:



Input side of pump (skimmer, pool drain, and spa drain):

 

[HermanTX]

I let @Jimrahbe provide more detailed instructions.
When we say "pool mode" it means that the valves are positioned to have suction from the pool and return to the pool.
In "spa mode", the valves are positioned to have suction only from the spa and only return to the spa via the jets.

As you can see on the valves - they have a notation on the handle "off". Where that "off" is positioned shuts off flow from that pipe.
So on your picture of the returns - the pipe marked "return" is shutoff and the pipe marked "pool return" is open to flow.

Now also, if you can turn the valve, there should be a little resistance because of the internal seals. Also, it is best to turn them when the pump is off. If the flow does not change when you turn a valve, it could be the valve is stuck. Bur for now, lets assume they are functioning so you can understand how to set it up between Pool and Spa modes.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Ka,

Thanks for the pics.. I have more questions..

In your pics of the return lines.. The top valve, has the handle pointing to "Pool Returns". The Off tab is pointed to what? I can see the word returns, but not sure where it goes.

In the same pic at the bottom there is a valve where the handle points to "Spa Returns" and the Off tab is pointed to what? That pipe is not labeled.

Did you do the labels or are they from the previous owner??

There is no doubt that you have somewhat of an odd set up..


With the valves set just like in your pics, it appears to me that you are only sucking water from the Pool's Main Drain, through the pump and filter and then sending the water back to only the Pool Returns.. I assume these are what you call "Jets" and what I call pool returns or eyeballs... Is that correct??? If so, in this configuration.. there should be no water flowing over the affinity edge.. Is this true???

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[ka0ttic]

I let @Jimrahbe provide more detailed instructions.
When we say "pool mode" it means that the valves are positioned to have suction from the pool and return to the pool.
In "spa mode", the valves are positioned to have suction only from the spa and only return to the spa via the jets.

As you can see on the valves - they have a notation on the handle "off". Where that "off" is positioned shuts off flow from that pipe.
So on your picture of the returns - the pipe marked "return" is shutoff and the pipe marked "pool return" is open to flow.

Now also, if you can turn the valve, there should be a little resistance because of the internal seals. Also, it is best to turn them when the pump is off. If the flow does not change when you turn a valve, it could be the valve is stuck. Bur for now, lets assume they are functioning so you can understand how to set it up between Pool and Spa modes.

I'm picking up what you are putting down. All the valves are functioning properly. Pool mode suctions from floor drain and returns via jets and waterfall. Spa mode suctions from floor drain and returns via jets.

 

[ka0ttic]

Ka,

Thanks for the pics.. I have more questions..

In your pics of the return lines.. The top valve, has the handle pointing to "Pool Returns". The Off tab is pointed to what? I can see the word returns, but not sure where it goes.

In the same pic at the bottom there is a valve where the handle points to "Spa Returns" and the Off tab is pointed to what? That pipe is not labeled.

Did you do the labels or are they from the previous owner??

There is no doubt that you have somewhat of an odd set up..


With the valves set just like in your pics, it appears to me that you are only sucking water from the Pool's Main Drain, through the pump and filter and then sending the water back to only the Pool Returns.. I assume these are what you call "Jets" and what I call pool returns or eyeballs... Is that correct??? If so, in this configuration.. there should be no water flowing over the affinity edge.. Is this true???

Thanks,

Jim R.

I did the labels myself. They were not labeled before.

In the returns picture, the off tab at the top is pointing towards the waterfall return. The off tab on the bottom one goes to the spa drain floor. As I said previously, I am not sure why you would want to return water to the spa through the floor but I guess this pool has the option...

Sorry again for the night time pics but this time of year that's all I get by the time I am home. Here are pics of the affinity edge and spa from both sides of the edge.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Ka,

I believe that your pool has won the "Odd Pool of the Year" award and it is only January...

Just want to make sure of what I think the pics of the spa show.. It is impossible for you to fill the spa high enough to spill over into the pool as it would just overflow on to the deck first.. Is that true?

Tell me again what happens when you Suck water from the Spa's main drain and send it all to the Pool returns/jets.. In theory, it should fill the pool to overflow the affinity edge and should just keep continuous flow of water over the edge.. What does it actually do now??

With the valves in the current position, and the pump off, what happens to water levels in both the pool and spa.. Does the spa lose water, does the pool lose water, do they both lose water or what??

Do you actually use the "spa" or do you just want to use it as a catch tank for the affinity edge??? Are there seats in the "spa"??

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Ka,

I can't yet see how the same drain in the spa can be used as a return and as a suction port...

I've seen main drains used as warm water returns or suction ports, but they have a valve that selects which function they use. In your case you have two valves that in theory go to the same drain.. Just does not make any sense to me yet..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[JJ_Tex]

It looks like a catch basin for an infinity edge pool.

Here is a good link on infinity edge pools, including #3 which talks about the catch basin:

Everything You Need to Know About Infinity Pools - Gardenista

Infinity pools with a vanishing edge make you feel as if you are one with the horizon. To learn how to design an infinity pool (and whether it's the right choice for you), read on:

www.gardenista.com

The other thing that jumps out on your pictures is that the water in your pool is super low, like below the returns. Why is that?

 

[HermanTX]

Since day 1, our biggest issue has been not being able to maintain the water level in the "spa" when the plumbing for that was turned on. The water seemed to drain in the spa faster than the pool could refill it. I tried every possible combination of valve settings and could never get it right so most of the time I ended up having that turned off which meant I was constantly refilling the pool and had to worry about the water level going below the skimmer if the kids jumped too much. With the affinity edge it doesn't take long for 1000 gallons to splash into the "spa". I am guessing there is a leak either in the pool or the spa that is causing this. There is one spot under the water fall where there was a pool light once that has been patched. That's a good candidate I am guessing.

@ka0ttic I am going back to your original post to provide some feedback now that we have pictures of both the pool/spa and plumbing.
I get what you mean that you can drain the spa faster than you can fill it with flow over the infinity edge. I will provide a couple of options.
The spa drain has to be on suction (open) so you do not overflow the spa onto your deck. So the trick is to determine how far open should that spa bottom drain be. Possibly only partially open it until you can balance the overflow of pool into the spa. You would also need to have the skimmer and/or pool bottom drain open (on suction) so you maintain the pump primed (you do not want to starve the pump). All returns would be to the pool return jets.
Another option is that you have some return flow go to the spa as well as to the pool. That way you are always keeping the spa full and not relying on the spillover.
Also, if you are just in spa mode - spa drain as only suction and all returns to the spa (the pool is completely isolated) - does the spa maintain its level and is there any issues with that circulation path?

One item that bothers me (confuses me) is there are numerous check valves (the clear top part that has a body similar to a valve) - if these are not check valves - let me know. Why are they on the 3 suction lines? I can understand the 1 directly before the pump as that is holding water to keep the pump primed but the other 3 seem redundant. Is your pump higher than your pool?

It may help if you could do a line drawing of your plumbing with info on what each line is for as some of the grass covering the lines and labels makes it hard to decipher.

A point yet not discussed is your comment on the possible pool leak through the old light fixture. Do you have any evidence of that (soggy ground) or other point that may help define that?

We are here to help - just continue to provide feedback as time permits with your schedule.

 

[ka0ttic]

Just want to make sure of what I think the pics of the spa show.. It is impossible for you to fill the spa high enough to spill over into the pool as it would just overflow on to the deck first.. Is that true?

Yes.

Tell me again what happens when you Suck water from the Spa's main drain and send it all to the Pool returns/jets.. In theory, it should fill the pool to overflow the affinity edge and should just keep continuous flow of water over the edge.. What does it actually do now??

What it did originally in that scenario was that the water level in the spa would slowly drop. Usually within 8-12 hours it would be almost empty and I would have to go shut the valves off to prevent it from sucking air.

Now, I have some leak near the pump or filter which was the final straw and I haven't run it since. It lost a couple feet of water in about an hour or so.

With the valves in the current position, and the pump off, what happens to water levels in both the pool and spa.. Does the spa lose water, does the pool lose water, do they both lose water or what??

It's really hard to say for certain. They seem to lose a little bit of water over say a week but I have always assumed that was just some evaporation, especially being in FL.

Do you actually use the "spa" or do you just want to use it as a catch tank for the affinity edge??? Are there seats in the "spa"??

No I just want to use it as a catch pool. There is a bench seat there but I can't imagine why anyone would ever want to sit in it, other than maybe kids.

 

[ka0ttic]

It looks like a catch basin for an infinity edge pool.

Here is a good link on infinity edge pools, including #3 which talks about the catch basin:

Everything You Need to Know About Infinity Pools - Gardenista

Infinity pools with a vanishing edge make you feel as if you are one with the horizon. To learn how to design an infinity pool (and whether it's the right choice for you), read on:

www.gardenista.com

The other thing that jumps out on your pictures is that the water in your pool is super low, like below the returns. Why is that?

The most recent development was a new leak near the pump and filter. Water level dropped that far in about an hour or so and I haven't turned it back on since.

 

[ka0ttic]

@ka0ttic I am going back to your original post to provide some feedback now that we have pictures of both the pool/spa and plumbing.
I get what you mean that you can drain the spa faster than you can fill it with flow over the infinity edge. I will provide a couple of options.
The spa drain has to be on suction (open) so you do not overflow the spa onto your deck. So the trick is to determine how far open should that spa bottom drain be. Possibly only partially open it until you can balance the overflow of pool into the spa. You would also need to have the skimmer and/or pool bottom drain open (on suction) so you maintain the pump primed (you do not want to starve the pump). All returns would be to the pool return jets.
Another option is that you have some return flow go to the spa as well as to the pool. That way you are always keeping the spa full and not relying on the spillover.
Also, if you are just in spa mode - spa drain as only suction and all returns to the spa (the pool is completely isolated) - does the spa maintain its level and is there any issues with that circulation path?

I have tried every combination of those valves over the last 3 years. I honestly think something has to be broken (or the entire design just sucks and is not ever going to work), rather than it just being valve settings.

One item that bothers me (confuses me) is there are numerous check valves (the clear top part that has a body similar to a valve) - if these are not check valves - let me know. Why are they on the 3 suction lines? I can understand the 1 directly before the pump as that is holding water to keep the pump primed but the other 3 seem redundant. Is your pump higher than your pool?

They are check valves. I have no idea why they are there, unfortunately. The pump is probably about level with where the water level should be.

It may help if you could do a line drawing of your plumbing with info on what each line is for as some of the grass covering the lines and labels makes it hard to decipher.

A point yet not discussed is your comment on the possible pool leak through the old light fixture. Do you have any evidence of that (soggy ground) or other point that may help define that?

We are here to help - just continue to provide feedback as time permits with your schedule.

Unfortunately, other than the suctions and returns mentioned in previous posts, I have no idea what the other plumbing is. I can only assume they are related to the old popup system. No, I do not have any evidence that where the light used to be is the cause of the leak.

Thanks for the help guys.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Ka,

In theory, the pump can't suck more water out of the catch basin than can come in over the infinity edge.. Obviously, for this to be true, the pool has to be full to just below the infinity edge.

If this were my pool, I would do two things...

1. I would fill the pool to just below the infinity edge and let it sit for a week a see if the water stays at that level or drains out.. Basically a leak test..

2. I would replace both the pump and filter... But, before I did that, I would try to determine where the equipment pad leak is.. Unless the leak is caused by the pump or filter, it does not make sense to install new units until you can get the leak fixed.. I would go with a VS pump and a larger cartridge filter.

I like the idea of converting the "spa" back to being just a catch basin..

In theory, you should be able to run the pool by itself, without the overflow edge on, or by using the catch basin drain to activate the flow over the infinity edge.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[HermanTX]

As I said previously, I am not sure why you would want to return water to the spa through the floor but I guess this pool has the option...

It is feasible that if they had a heater, that they would want warm water to push up from the bottom as well out of the jets. I know that is why some pools have "deep" jets in the pool to push warm water to the coldest water in the pool.

Input side of pump (skimmer, pool drain, and spa drain):

On this picture, you have a pipe marked Pool Main Drain (which is open) and then there are 2 connected pipes with a valve between them marked Skimmer and Main Drain (the skimmer is OFF and the handle is across the other words which appear to be Main Drain.) By notation of the valve the 2 connected pipes are OFF.
I am suggesting that you may have incorrectly marked the pipe Pool Main Drain. A "standard" set up for a suction plumbing that has a spa and pool is shown in my very crude drawing. You turn valve A to close spa suction and open pool suction. Then turn valve B to have flow from either or both pool skimmer and pool drain. Some prefer to have 70% skimmer and 30% drain to create good skimming action while still have deep water suction.


Your picture indicates you have the pipes to the right in off position but you have noted the pipe on left as pool drain but could it be spa drain because it is a single suction line? Whereas there are 2 connected pipes on the right side which leads me to be believe those are both related to the pool side (skimmer and main drain).

 

[borjis]

Is that cartridge filter sufficient for that size of pool? I could be wrong but it doesn't seem big enough.

 

[ka0ttic]

Ka,

In theory, the pump can't suck more water out of the catch basin than can come in over the infinity edge.. Obviously, for this to be true, the pool has to be full to just below the infinity edge.

If this were my pool, I would do two things...

1. I would fill the pool to just below the infinity edge and let it sit for a week a see if the water stays at that level or drains out.. Basically a leak test..

2. I would replace both the pump and filter... But, before I did that, I would try to determine where the equipment pad leak is.. Unless the leak is caused by the pump or filter, it does not make sense to install new units until you can get the leak fixed.. I would go with a VS pump and a larger cartridge filter.

I like the idea of converting the "spa" back to being just a catch basin..

In theory, you should be able to run the pool by itself, without the overflow edge on, or by using the catch basin drain to activate the flow over the infinity edge.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Yes, anytime I've wanted to mess with it, I would always make sure the pool was filled to the affinity edge and add water to the catch basin. I will add water and check it in a week and see what happens. I want to say previously, when I added water and it sat for a week, it would probably be a couple inches lower. I always just figured that was evaporation but maybe not.

I've tried just not using the catch basin but the problem is, having kids jumping in the pool, I lose 12-18" of water over the edge. This meant I usually had to have the skimmer off or it'd be sucking air by the time they got done.

The best thing that has worked so far has been leaving the skimmer/spa off when I am not home or kids are in the pool. Then afterwards pumping water from the spa. Turn the spa off, then turn on skimmer for a while. Then I would just add water back to to the spa and maybe a little chlorine for the next time. I was able to keep this up for about 6 months but it was just constant work keeping it going.

What size VS pump do you think I would need for this pool?

 

[ka0ttic]

It is feasible that if they had a heater, that they would want warm water to push up from the bottom as well out of the jets. I know that is why some pools have "deep" jets in the pool to push warm water to the coldest water in the pool.


On this picture, you have a pipe marked Pool Main Drain (which is open) and then there are 2 connected pipes with a valve between them marked Skimmer and Main Drain (the skimmer is OFF and the handle is across the other words which appear to be Main Drain.) By notation of the valve the 2 connected pipes are OFF.
I am suggesting that you may have incorrectly marked the pipe Pool Main Drain. A "standard" set up for a suction plumbing that has a spa and pool is shown in my very crude drawing. You turn valve A to close spa suction and open pool suction. Then turn valve B to have flow from either or both pool skimmer and pool drain. Some prefer to have 70% skimmer and 30% drain to create good skimming action while still have deep water suction.

View attachment 174123
Your picture indicates you have the pipes to the right in off position but you have noted the pipe on left as pool drain but could it be spa drain because it is a single suction line? Whereas there are 2 connected pipes on the right side which leads me to be believe those are both related to the pool side (skimmer and main drain).

There have been times the spa has been empty but I've run just the pool without any issues. That wouldn't be possible if they were backwards.