In the Industry Folks

[RDspaguy]

The only time you generally need to change it is when you use floc or clarifiers that gum up the sand.

True, those will wreak havoc on a sand filter. I find that the use of suntan lotion, or any lotion or oil, and products such as hair conditioner, fabric softener, makeup, etc... can have a similar effect. It is a much bigger concern for public pools due to bather load, but can become an issue even in a residential pool over time. Sand grains coated in oily substances do not wash off very well and clump together just as those covered in clarifiers do. Even a "deep clean" will not remove it.

Pool stores and maintenance companies want you to think it goes bad, but it doesn't. They want to sell you the sand and maybe the service of changing it.

The profit margin on a few bags of sand is so minimal as to be non-existent, and the charge for the service, if you choose not to do it yourself, is no more than for any other service provided. Nobody works for free, not even you. You can villainize the pool guy if you like, but be fair and villainize the HVAC, plumber, electrician, carpenter, roofer, and auto-mechanic as well. We provide a service, you do not have to utilize that service if you do not want to. But making out like we are just trying to cheat you out of your hard-earned money is ridiculous. The labor (the expensive part) for deep cleaning a filter is roughly the same as for a sand change, so why not change it and start fresh if you are paying for it anyway?

 

[tim5055]

The profit margin on a few bags of sand is so minimal as to be non-existent, and the charge for the service, if you choose not to do it yourself, is no more than for any other service provided. Nobody works for free, not even you. You can villainize the pool guy if you like, but be fair and villainize the HVAC, plumber, electrician, carpenter, roofer, and auto-mechanic as well. We provide a service, you do not have to utilize that service if you do not want to. But making out like we are just trying to cheat you out of your hard-earned money is ridiculous. The labor (the expensive part) for deep cleaning a filter is roughly the same as for a sand change, so why not change it and start fresh if you are paying for it anyway?

The villanizing is not directed to you personally, but to a select few in your industry who conduct business via scare tactics, misdirection, misinformation and marketing hype.

I've had it happen to me. They chat you up at the counter and try to convince you that "Oh, you have never changed the sand in your filter?" We need to schedule to come over and do that as it's surly worn out by now.

I've had them tell me that I may as well buy pucks from them because the liquid chlorine I was using had just as much CYA in it as pucks.

I've had them tell me that I couldn't use Arm & Hammer baking soda for TA because it was too harsh, I needed their buffered TA UP or I would ruin my equipment.

You have been on this forum for a little over a month. Stay here for a couple of pool seasons and read teh horror stories of what pool "professionals" do to people every day to pull money out of their pocket.

If people in the pool industry feel they are getting a bad rap, many of them need to look in the mirror to understand where it is coming from.

 

[RDspaguy]

Tim, I am sorry you had such a bad experience! I have never, in 25 years in this business, met such a pool professional. I can't imagine they would stay in business very long using such sales tactics. And I don't know any who have a shortage of work during the season and would need or want to do unnecessary work.
But I grant you, there are inexperienced or dishonest people in every field. And I have seen some pretty shoddy work in the field myself over the years.
Perhaps I don't spend enough time at the counter to see what you describe, being busy in backyards fixing equipment.

 

[Donldson]

@RDspaguy Despite our recent dissenting discussion on chemistry, I have no doubt you are a good honest person. However, I have a hard time believing that you haven't seen that the industry is full of underhanded shysters.

I worked several years in pool maintenance. This was after TFP, so I went to events held by my wholesaler with a lot of trepidation. I was happy to find a lot of decent people. However, it sure wasn't the majority. I remember quite vividly as I sat in a room at a chemistry seminar, led by a former pool store owner. He told with great gusto how he found out another store was undercutting his puck prices because he was buying from a wholesaler and they cut a deal directly with the manufacturer. He shared that he started telling his customers that he was more expensive but he refused to sell anything but "high compression trichlor" pucks. As he reminded us that all pucks were high compression everyone laughed. Except for me, I just sat there in wonder at the excitement he showed in knowingly tricking his customers in to paying more for the same thing. He could have done what was best for the customer, or what was best for his bottom line, and he gleefully chose bottom line. He could have even attempted to find a better source of pucks, but nope. That would have taken time, the misdirection was easier. That's the kind of thing we see on here all too often.

I absolutely believe pool and spa maintenance people are as honest as any other maintenance industry. They are charging for a pretty cut and dry service. But the sales pros are as bad as the worst used car salesmen I have seen. Weekly service guys are undertrained and overworked in the name of keeping cheap service profitable. It's ugly. Maybe you haven't seen it or maybe you try to forget it, but even the good ones are selling baking soda marked up 500%.

 

[Jimrahbe]

but be fair and villainize the HVAC, plumber, electrician, carpenter, roofer, and auto-mechanic as well.

RD,

I could not agree more... I have friends that have been taken advantage by every one of those professions. I am friends with a retired EE that works part time for a HVAC place.. They are always on his case for not "up selling" more.. Basically why fix what is there, when you can sell them a new one..

I am not saying that everyone is a bad apple, but there are plenty out there. In some cases, like my HVAC friend, it is pushed by the corporate owners. I understand that businesses have to make a profit and have no problems with that. When you go in for brain surgery, you will pay whatever the surgeon charges, unfortunately, replacing a pump, or the sand, in a sand filter, is just as complex to some pool owners who have zero DIY skills. They very often get taken advantage of..

The reason that we only "Villainize" pool guys, is simply because this is a pool web site, not because we think they are any better or worse than anyone else.

Just from reading your posts, I do not see you as being part of this problem..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[RDspaguy]

I thank you both for the vote of confidence. That means alot to me. I have always done my best to be both honest and ethical. And apparently fortunate to deal with others who are the same.
I agree with your assessment of weekly maintenance guys, having hired and trained quite a few. It is not an easy or pleasant job, and accounts for a great deal of industry turnover.
As for pricing, in my experience the markup is pretty standard across the board, usually a percentage, and if we are charging more than walmart, then we are paying more, too. I have never heard anyone say you can't use baking soda, but I do discourage household bleach, as it is not the same concentration across all brands and sometimes includes other ingredients, scents, etc. And that may be perfectly fine as well, but I am no chemist to know for sure and would not risk it for the meager price difference.
I would also like to say that I respect this forum and it's goals of education and understanding. There are very knowledgeable people here willing to take the time to share that knowledge with any who need it. For that I commend you all. Informed pool owners are not the enemy of real pool professionals, but our allies. And I will be the first to call out bad advice from "shysters" if I hear it.

 

[tim5055]

I do discourage household bleach, as it is not the same concentration across all brands and sometimes includes other ingredients, scents, etc. And that may be perfectly fine as well, but I am no chemist to know for sure and would not risk it for the meager price difference.

The problem for many is that liquid chlorine is not as readily available as bleach. We do our best to teach the different concentrations and are very specific that it needs to exclude those with those extra ingredients.

I'll be honest, while at first blush it seems we are "against" certain things, we are not. Pucks are a prime example. They have their place and I always have a bucket of them. We are against their uncontrolled use and/or use in the wrong situation. A pool outside Boston that gets drained and lots of snow fill over the winter may be able to use them while a pool in Miami may not have such good luck.

I hope you stick around and continue to contribute. The average ITI poster generally is gone before 100 posts eiother becuse we won't bow down to their perceived superior knowledge or because they were only here to try to use this platform for marketing.

 

[RDspaguy]

The problem for many is that liquid chlorine is not as readily available as bleach. We do our best to teach the different concentrations and are very specific that it needs to exclude those with those extra ingredients.

I'll be honest, while at first blush it seems we are "against" certain things, we are not. Pucks are a prime example. They have their place and I always have a bucket of them. We are against their uncontrolled use and/or use in the wrong situation. A pool outside Boston that gets drained and lots of snow fill over the winter may be able to use them while a pool in Miami may not have such good luck.

I hope you stick around and continue to contribute. The average ITI poster generally is gone before 100 posts eiother becuse we won't bow down to their perceived superior knowledge or because they were only here to try to use this platform for marketing.

Well, I have a few ideas of why they don't stick around. But I am neither superior nor marketing, and am here to help in response to some great help I recieved on a diesel truck forum. I don't have much to offer there, so thought I would pass it forward with something I do know about.

 

[Newdude]

You can villainize the pool guy if you like, but be fair and villainize the HVAC, plumber, electrician, carpenter, roofer, and auto-mechanic as well.

Every. Last. Industry. Has people who prey on the ignorant. The pool guy is more relevant in this forum, but the statement could not be more true.

There are also customers who don't understand how much it costs even the the honest guys to stay in business. A customer of mine was once shredding her HVAC guy for charging her $100 to replace her furnace filters. 'How DARE he not tell me i could have bought them myself at Home Depot for $30?' Ma'am, how would he be in business if he told eveyone how to do it themselves for free? and he only charged you $70 for the standard half hour minimum labor. It probably took him longer to take your phonecall and drive here.

 

[RDspaguy]

Maybe I am just naive and don't see it, or perhaps people know when we meet that I will not fall for it. I hear these stories about dishonest this or that guy, but I do not experience it. Even used car salesmen have been good to me!

 

[ajw22]

Maybe I am just naive and don't see it, or perhaps people know when we meet that I will not fall for it. I hear these stories about dishonest this or that guy, but I do not experience it. Even used car salesmen have been good to me!

The good shysters can spot the innocents they can take advantage of and those who look street wise. You must have the right look.

 

[Newdude]

Even used car salesmen have been good to me!

Walk into any Jiffy Lube and tell them you are nervous about your fluids being low. They will make Leslies look cheap.

 

[Newdude]

The good shysters can spot the innocents they can take advantage of and those who look street wise. You must have the right look.

It’s more the confidence than anything else. Walk into anywhere confidentially and look people dead in the eyes to demand accountability. It will make most of the dishonest people squirm instead of the other way around.

 

[RDspaguy]

The good shysters can spot the innocents they can take advantage of and those who look street wise. You must have the right look.

Well, I try.

 

[RDspaguy]

I did grow up in Ferguson, Mo (perhaps you have heard of it) so maybe it does show. I do sometimes make people uncomfortable. Never understood it, because I am really a nice guy.

 

[Oly]

Regarding repairs or new install, doing the job properly is key for any skilled tradesman. Many customers do not mind paying more for quality work, good communication, timely work and good clean up.
Ever have a customer that wants something done that is not necessary and refuses to listen to reason when given sound advice?

 

[RDspaguy]

Ever have a customer that wants something done that is not necessary and refuses to listen to reason when given sound advice?

Of course. If it doesn't hurt anything and they insist on it then I will do it. If it is a bad idea, I will convince them it is a bad idea and encourage them to do more research on their own to verify my opinions. I will not do a job that will create problems, or especially dangers, for my customer or others. I have both liability and licensing concerns as a licensed contractor, and will not risk my career for any amount of money.

 

[duraleigh]

RD,

I have been on this forum since it's inception in 2007 and another for three years prior to that. I have over 30,000 posts and I have read probably close to a half million from other members. That experience has taught me a couple of hard to ignore facts.....not pre-conceived notions but facts based on what I have read and retained.

1. Pool Stores are a horrible place to learn about pools. Mostly from ignorance, they give bad advice over and over to the pool owner who naturally assumes pool stores would be the "go to guys". They are not.

2. Pool service folks are not as bad but there are A LOT of pool service people who mismanage pools horribly and subsequently give bad advice to defend their mismanagement. TFP doesn't teach pool service people nor do we try to. We teach homeowners. This difference in methods (pool service vs homeowner) Most always result in the pool service people disagreeing with a lot of what they read here and they eventually go away from the forum.

Again, those two ideas are not preconceived but an inevitable result of the thousands and thousands of post on this forum from which these ideas come. As a small businessman for 40+ years, I have always felt an affinity for other small businesses but I cannot alter the truth of those statements.

 

[RDspaguy]

Fair enough. We all have our own experiences. And I imagine that those who have honest, knowledgeable, and helpful retailers or service providers are not coming to TFP for guidance. They would have no need.

would also like to say that I respect this forum and it's goals of education and understanding. There are very knowledgeable people here willing to take the time to share that knowledge with any who need it. For that I commend you all. Informed pool owners are not the enemy of real pool professionals, but our allies. And I will be the first to call out bad advice from "shysters" if I hear it.

And I'll say it again.
I like this forum and what it provides to owners. Happy customers has always been my personal goal. Perhaps my presence on this forum can alleviate some of the bad reputation my profession has apparently earned here. I will strive to change the opinions of this forum in general, and you in particular. As I said in another thread, I like a challenge!

 

[Arizonarob]

But the sales pros are as bad as the worst used car salesmen I have seen.

Good salesmen can sell anything! And they don’t care what they are selling, as long as they can sell it.

Weekly service guys are undertrained and overworked in the name of keeping cheap service profitable.

I too did a small stint in the pool service industry, what I saw in 1 day was enough for me to walk away.

In some cases, like my HVAC friend, it is pushed by the corporate owners.

Bingo!
When corporations come into the picture, the pressure to produce profits is priority number one.

Informed pool owners are not the enemy of real pool professionals, but our allies. And I will be the first to call out bad advice from "shysters" if I hear it.

Exactly. This forum is made up of DIY people peppered with topic specific pros. When someone shows up with miss-guided information, (mainly from pool stores) we take the time to help and educate them so they learn the advantages of doing it themselves. (Or at the minimum, they know when someone is slinging bull and can help them pick a better service professional.)

I’ve seen your posts, and you give straight forward answers and advice. If that’s the same level of service you provide to your customers, then you’re one of the good guys!
I hope you stick around and help other people with your knowledge and experience.