New pool build Far North Dallas Suburb

[tenderfoot]

Re: New pool build Far North Dallas Suburb (Photos linked)

Does anyone have a pool with Stonescapes Tropics Blue Mini Pebble ? Could you post a photo? I've seen photos online at the product's web page, but I don't quite trust those because I am sure they've been "touched-up", so I'd prefer a photo from folks here. Thanks in advance!

 

[GatorPAC]

Re: New pool build Far North Dallas Suburb (Photos linked)

Does anyone have a pool with Stonescapes Tropics Blue Mini Pebble ? Could you post a photo? I've seen photos online at the product's web page, but I don't quite trust those because I am sure they've been "touched-up", so I'd prefer a photo from folks here. Thanks in advance!

Having stonescapes tropics blue minipebble installed as I type this, check out my build link for pics later today

 

[tenderfoot]

Re: New pool build Far North Dallas Suburb (Photos linked)

Thanks!

Go Gators!

 

[tenderfoot]

Re: New pool build Far North Dallas Suburb (Photos linked)

Sorry for not posting any updates these past weeks, but this pool build has been very stressful. The pool builder keeps making mistake after mistake (big ones!) and disappears without notice for days and even a whole week (twice... No, there was no bad weather) and doesn't respond when contacted. sigh... I would have fired this company already if I had not already paid 95% of the build. arghhh... I just want this over with.

Pictures available at this link: https://imgur.com/a/6PN2U

Anyway, I decided to go with a salt water pool and the deck and coping are both built with travertine, so I was wondering if the coping and/or deck material (both travertine) should be sealed to protect it from the salt. I would think travertine should be sealed since the travertine is pourous and the chemicals in salt love to destroy materials, but the PB says it should not be sealed.

Also, the deck is built using travertine pavers which are just laid over sand, but I thought that the gaps between all the pavers were supposed to be filled in with sand too (maybe not the same type of sand as the one underneath, but some other sand, polymeric sand?) so that the pavers won't move and to help prevent weeds from growing, ants coming through, etc... Again, the PB says 'no it should not have sand in the grooves between pavers', but gives me no good reason why not... What's your experience?

 

[kimkats]

Re: New pool build Far North Dallas Suburb (Photos linked)

Sorry to hear things are so bumpy with your build Not fun at all gurrrrrrrrrrrrr

-coping-I would not seal as that can make it very slippery. I would rinse it off if you have a big swim party and there are lots of going in and out of the pool as well as every once in a while just to be on the safe side.

-plymeric sand=yes for the joints just to be on the safe side. If the pavers are "held" in on each side with little chance of movement you might be okay without the sand but I would want it for the reason you state-weed protection!

Here is hoping things get done and you have a awesome pool to enjoy soon!

Kim

 

[tenderfoot]

Re: New pool build Far North Dallas Suburb (Photos linked)

Ok, so things have gone from bumpy to a complete nightmare!

The builder has abandoned the project and took a bunch of money with him, basically all the money for all the equipment (pool cleaner, pumps, filter, valves, actuators, etc...) and the cost of install (electrical and plumbing) of all equipment too! That's about $22K worth. The pool is still not plastered either of course, but that work had not been paid yet. He also damaged my driveway, grass, sigh.... Anyhow, I am now engaging lawyers to evaluate options.

In the meantime, I am trying to figure out everything I can about how to properly get this completed... Here is where you guys come in...

Other than the mockups from the pool design software, I do not have any diagrams/blueprints (construction, plumbing, nor electrical) from the builder showing anything because I thought I'd get these at the end, just like I thought it was OK to pay someone upfront, trusting in human decency (Yes, I am an idiot). Anyhow, I have been able to draw plans with dimensions for the pool myself. So, I now at least have that, but I need help on several things:

1. Can you help me figure out how the plumbing was supposed to be connected? I do know which lines go where in the pool, but don't know how they'd connect to the equipment. I have drawn up a diagram which I can post here, but I need help doing that (see bottom of this post)...
2. Can you help me figure out which equipment was supposed to be installed to achieve what is needed? I do know the names of major components, and through a lot of reading on this forum have formed an *idea* of other components required...
3. Can you help me figure out which pool "controller" (sorry if that's not the proper name of the component), breaker box, etc... I would need for my configuration? Basically, the pool has no heater nor spa. The pool will be saltwater, it should have one color-changing LED light, one color changing LED bubbler light, 3 waterfalls, and a polaris cleaner. All of this is supposed to be automated and should be capable of being controlled from my smartphone (android/iphone). I should also be able to have control of two additional accessories (low voltage perimeter lighting and one other accessory).

Lastly, there has been a lot of rain lately in the area and I have been reading about empty pools *floating* because the water underneath the pool gunite pushes it upward, etc... So, questions on this:

1. How do I check if my pool is floating? What are the signs?
2. If I am lucky (for once in this nightmare project), how do I prevent my empty pool from *floating*?

Oh right... I also need help with learning how to post JPG/PNG files on this forum because last time I tried, the forum did not give me much storage space to add the photos... but I see others including lots of beautiful photos of their pools, so I assume there's a way. Could you please help me understand what I am doing wrong?

Thanks!

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Re: New pool build Far North Dallas Suburb (Photos linked)

OHmygosh! Bless your heart!

Does the pool have a hydrostatic valve in the deep end? A round valve that can be opened up to allow ground water into the pool if pressure underneath rises. Look for it and take a pic if you find something and we'll look to see before you do anything, just to confirm.

If you are a TFP Supporter (any level) you get more storage space for pics. Highly recommend it, as you also get a discount on your much needed pool tester and a discount at Inyopools.com

We'll help in any way possible.

Maddie

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Re: New pool build Far North Dallas Suburb (Photos linked)

Do you have an electrical outlet near the pool? Like within 10 feet? You can lose the polaris cleaner (and cap off that plumbing that goes to it) and just use a robot which actually works far better.

Not a very big help, but just one thing you could cross off your to-do list if you wanted.

Maddie

 

[tenderfoot]

Re: New pool build Far North Dallas Suburb (Photos linked)

Thanks. Yes I will have 120vac outlet 10 feet away from the pool edge. However, I am honestly very nervous about having a 120 VAC powered-device inside the water.

There is no hydrostatic valve. It's been raining cats and dogs here in north Texas, so there's probably about 2 to 3 feet of rain water in the deepend right now.

 

[tenderfoot]

Re: New pool build Far North Dallas Suburb (Photos linked)

Ok, the diagrams below show how I think this is all supposed to be connected from the plumbing point of view. I am certain of the # of plumbing lines (and the size of each) between the pool and the concrete pad. The diagram with the red lines is my guess at the electrical connections...

For the plumbing diagram, I am not certain if the equipment I drew on the concrete pad is all needed nor if there should be additional equipment on there. And of course, I have no clue if the diagram shows it all correctly connected.

For the electrical diagram, I need a lot more help. I basically just drew a red line to any component that required some kind of electrical power to do its job.

Anyway, I am just wanting to make sure I understand this completely so that whomever is hired to finish the pool does the job correctly and I am not "taken on a new ride". Thanks!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Re: New pool build Far North Dallas Suburb (Photos linked)

Thanks. Yes I will have 120vac outlet 10 feet away from the pool edge. However, I am honestly very nervous about having a 120 VAC powered-device inside the water.

tf,

Although robots are plugged into 120 VAC, they are powered by low voltage DC. There is just no danger of getting shocked or electrocuted.. Just the same as a low voltage pool light.. both get their power from 120 VAC and then step it down to a low voltage AC or DC...

Your plumbing diagram looks ok to me, but you do not need any of the check valves.

Thanks,

Jim R.

- - - Updated - - -

I have also alerted our Admin about your "support payment"...

 

[kimkats]

What a wild ride you have been on! OUCH! BUT you are here now and we will do our best to help. Our IT guy should be along to get your pretty badge on your name and set you up with more pic room!

Kim

 

[Jimrahbe]

Re: New pool build Far North Dallas Suburb (Photos linked)

tf,

As far as automation goes... tell us what equipment you currently have, if any... that might dictate what automation system you will need to buy.

We would also need to know the number of gallons your pool is designed to hold..

As far as floating, I doubt that will be a problem around here. When they dug the hole did the ground remain dry, or did the hole immediately start to fill with ground water? Unless there is a lot of ground water, your pool should not float.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[PoolGate]

This is the 2nd builder I read about on this forum in the past month that abandoned a job. I just don't get how you can do that and sleep at night. Anyway the pool looks great good luck with the best I am sure it will come out awesome in the end!

For equipment, pick a brand and stick with it. Mine is Jandy. They automation system comes inside the electrical cabinet. For Jandy and the iAqualink, the bottom half is the high voltage area with the breakers and the top half is the low voltage system controller and saltwater generator "brains". I have a handheld device that is made my Jandy and also can use any smartphone or computer to control and program the system. The big white box on the left in the pic.

 

[tenderfoot]

Thanks all.

I did not know that the electrical robot was running on low voltage at the unit. That makes a HUGE difference for me, thanks for clarifying that.

Based on my math, the pool is around 17.5K gallons (I do not have a spa and also no heater planned). Basically, it is a 31'x16' rectangle. The shallow end is 3.5 feet to the waterline. The steep slope goes for about 5 or 6 feet. The deep end is 6.5 feet to the waterline. The tanning ledge is 8'x10' and only about 4" deep (I had asked for it to be 9" deep but this is another of the screw ups by the builder...).

The only pieces of equipment I have in my possession, and which are not connected, are: the salt water generator (Truclear11K) and the SAVI bubbler color light.

The plan is to go with all Jandy brand/family equipment as shown in the table below. BTW, I read somewhere in this forum discussions about placing check valves before the pumps so they are always primed. I do not know if that applies to my situation or not given that the primary pump is self priming and that the equipment pad is only 1 foot above the water line.

Item	Description	Qty
Jandy 2.0 HP Variable Speed Pump (VSSHP270AUT)	Variable speed pool pump	1
Jandy 2.0 HP Single Speed Pump (SHPM2.5)	Single speed pump for water features (sheer descents and bubbler on tanning ledge)	1
Jandy DEV 60	Pool filter (should I switch to cartridge? The backwash pipe is in place already)	1
Polaris 280	Pool cleaner (I am now seriously considering switching this out for an electrical cleaner, but which one?)	1
Polaris 3/4 HP Booster Pump (PB4-60)	Booster pump for Polaris cleaner (It won't be needed if I switch to the electrical cleaner)	1
Jandy Truclear11K Salt Water Generator	Salt water generator: cell and control electronics. I have this one in my possession.	1
SAVI LED Color 20Watt Light (P-Series) for Bubbler in the Tanning Ledge	I have this one in my possession, along with its extraction tool. It has a 100 ft cord and a red label but no model # other than "SAVBUB".	1
Jandy Color Pool Light (CPLVRGBWS100)	I think the cord length can be shorter, but I am going with the same length as the SAVI I have in my possession in case it matters to the electrician	1
Pool lights 12v transformer (100 Watt)	I am assuming it is OK to drive both the above lights via one transformer of this wattage	1
Jandy Never Lube Valves - 2-Way (4724)	Valves for regulating water flow as in diagram	7
Jandy Never Lube Valves - 3-Way (4715)	Valves for directing water flow as in diagram. Just need two?	2
Jandy Valve Actuators (4424)	For automation. Just need two?	2
Jandy Check Valves (7235)	Do I not need these to make sure the pumps remain primed? Also, do I not need one of these to prevent salt water generator pushing salt backwards? If the answer to these is 'No', then shouldn't there be at least one check valve somewhere?	4
Jandy BWVL-NVL 2-in-1 NeverLube Backwash Valve	Required for the DE filter. If I switch to the cartridge filter, this will not be necessary.	1
Jandy Powercenter 6613	Powercenter with room for at least 8 relays. Or do I need a subpanel instead so that breakers can be installed by the pool? BTW, the house's main breaker panel is directly on the other side of the wall where the pool equipment will be located, so only 4 or 5 feet away.	1
Jandy RS-P8	Would this be the right control board? It only needs to be capable of controlling/automating the pumps, salt water generator, the sheer descent/bubbler features, pool light, bubbler light, and the chiller. Also would like to eventually automate a pool perimeter lighting. Or, if I am installing the chiller, would that make this configuration look like it has a SPA and I should switch it to RS-PS8?	1
Zodiac IQ20-A Web Control Interface	Device required to control the pool equipment from the iqualink website through the mobile phone/laptop/tablet. Requires constant access to the internet in order to be accessible.	1
Zodiac 7953 Wall Control Interface	Control panel for controlling and programming the pool equipment. This is needed in case the home internet connection is not working or similar. Is that correct or can I do it all from the RS-P8 buttons? Do I really need something like this if I have the IQ20-A?	1

 

[Jimrahbe]

tf,

Not sure where to start...

Filter wise, it does not really matter.. Since you already have a drain pipe (to the sewer I hope), then I would leave it DE.. You can go cartridge if you wish, but maintenance wise they are both about the same amount of work..

Robot wise, I would go with a Dolphin.. I suggest you use the search function in the upper right of the screen and look at the 1/4 million posts on robots...

Your Jandy Truclear11K Salt Water Generator is basically worthless (sorry) but it is rated for an 11K pool and that is when it is running 24 hours a day at 100%.. We always recommend using a cell that is rated for at least 2 x your water volume.. You need a 40K cell... and the electronics that goes with it.

Actuator wise... Your diagram only shows needing two.. But, one of those two is for a pressure side cleaner driven by a booster pump. I did not notice this before, but you would not normally use a valve to control the water going to a booster pump. You would normally use an actuator controlled valve (on the suction side) if you were trying to control a suction side cleaner.. You do not need this valve or actuator at all... whether you keep the pressure side cleaner or not...

Check valve wise, you just don't need any of them. Well operating system hold their prime without any check valves. I have three pools and none of them have check valves. You would need a check valve to prevent a Chlorine Tab Dispenser from feeding back into a heater, but you don't have a heater or a tab dispenser, you have a SWCG. All the water throughout your whole plumbing will be saltwater, so how would a check valve prevent the movement of salt water????

I am a Pentair kind of guy and am not fan of Jandy automation systems, but that is more because I don't understand them very well.. They have too many mix and match options that just confuse things for me.. That said.. the most important thing about automation is to make sure that the Automation system, any VS pump, and any SWCG all are the same brand. This is the easiest way to make sure everything talks to each other.

From a generic automation system point of view, I think you need a unit that comes with a load center for all your circuit breakers, and a number of AC control relays.. Most systems have 4 or 8 relays.. you will need 8 relays because of all the things you want to control.

Your VS pump will be controlled by a small serial cable not a relay..
Your Single speed water feature pump will need a relay..
Your Pool light will need a relay..
Your Bubbler light will need a relay..
Your Chiller will need a relay..
Your Salt system will need a relay.. usually called the Pump/Filter relay which will shut off the power to the SWCG when the main pump is not running..
Your booster pump will need a relay (If you go with a pressure side cleaner)..
Your Landscape light will need a relay..
You will need a spare relay, because something always needs to be added later...

Your Actuator(s) do not use relays, they have special outputs from the main controller board. Most systems come standard with two (User programmable) valve circuits..

You will need to find a Jandy expert to answer your Jandy specific questions..

For comparison, here are the Pentair units that would do all the things you want to do..

Pentair Easy Touch Control System 520545. EasyTouch 8SC-IC40 Control System. Pentair 520545.

Pentair IntelliFlo Variable Speed Pump 011018 | Pentair 011018

Pentair ScreenLogic Interface and Wireless Connection Kit 522104 | Pentair 522104

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[PoolGate]

Here is the Jandy selection chart. For the wireless phone link you want the IQ20-RS NOT the IQ20-A. The A only allows on/off of features from the phone/web interface. You want full programming capability which is the RS.

https://www.jandy.com/~/media/zodiac/global/downloads/sa/sa6465.pdf?force=1

 

[tenderfoot]

@jmrahbe: thank you for taking the time to look at my post and explaining all that! As you can tell, I am a complete noob so I have no idea about any of this yet.

Regarding the SWCG, the literature for the truclear11K says this:

• 
  [*=1]Produces 18 grams per hour of chlorine for pools up to 35,000 gallons
  [*=1]2-port cell, stand-alone system
  [*=1]Low-flow sensing and operation - works at 20 GPM

​

Are you certain that product is only good for 11K pools? I do realize it says 11K on the model number, but is that what that # means and so the literature is just trying to make it sound like it can do more?

Jandy also has the Aquapure SWCG with the PLC1400 cell, and that one says this:

• 
  [*=1]Pool Size: Up to 40,000 Gallons
  [*=1]Chlorine: 1.25 lb./24 Hr. (567 gm/24 Hr.)
  [*=1]Recommended Flow Rate: 20-120 GPM

​

The PLC1400 looks significantly larger (physically) than the cell of the truclear11K. Chlorine-wise, the above information says that the PLC1400 generates 105 grams more of chlorine after 24 hours of operation than the truclear11K. That's almost 25% more chlorine, so it clearly would have been a better choice. But it looks like the truclear11K could be just about what is needed?


DE Filter: If the maintenance is the same, are there any advantages between cartridge and DE? Are the maintenance costs the same? The backwash line is indeed discharging into the sewer line in front of the house.

Electrical cleaner: I will have a look at the Dolphin. Thanks!

Actuators: I have no idea where they were needed, so I just placed them wherever I placed a 3-way valve. But I also have no clue where a 3-way valve is needed, so thank you for clarifying that. I am obviously not gonna do this work, I just want to get an idea as to what/how/where it all supposed to be installed so I am able to challenge things if they don't look right. Thank you!

Check valves: Great! Thanks.

Cleaner: a few questions about the pressure side vs suction side cleaners... I assume that a suction side cleaner is one which runs off the suction produced by the main pump and therefore that type of cleaner does not need a booster pump? The main pump would need to be quite strong for that? In contrast, the pressure side cleaner uses (needs?) the booster pump to boost the water pressure on its dedicated return line so it can run properly?

@poolgate: Thanks for that selection chart. I had seen a similar one for Zodiac, but not one for Jandy. Thank you!

IQ20-A vs IQ20-RS: From the description of each package in the jandy literature, it seems to me that the difference is that the IQ20-A package only consists of the antennae, and the IQ20-RS has the antennae and also the control board (RS-PS8). I was thinking the control board had to be ordered separately, but it looks like ordering the combination, as you suggested, would save money. Hmmm... Well, ordering the RS-P8 control board separately also includes a couple of relays. I'll have to see how many I end up needing, it may be all 8... Again, I am just trying to get a good guestimate on parts and costs so I am not taken for a ride.

 

[Jimrahbe]

tf,

I just saw the 11K and "assumed"....

I did try to look at the manual, but for some reason Jandy hates me and I could not get it to download...

Both suction side and pressure side cleaners require the main pump to be running... the booster pump does just what the name implies.. it just increases the water pressure needed by the pressure side cleaner.. Water powered cleaners are like the old Black Rotary Dial telephones that everyone used to have.. Robots are more like today's cell phones.. and neither the Robot or your cell phone requires you to run your pool pump to use it...

A DE filter should have a Multiport valve which will let you drain to waste and by pass the filter, and backwash, none of which a Cartridge filter can do.. At the same time Multiport valves can have problems, so since a cartridge filter has no valves it removes that possible problem. I would say it is a wash, as to which is best. One thing that is best is bigger.. the bigger the filter the less you have to clean it. I clean mine twice a year but could go a full year except my OCD gets in the way.. I believe the I have the biggest cartridge filter Pentair makes.. the CCP520.. I have it because it was impossible to plumb a drain line to my sewer.. My other two pools have DE filters... I think that DE filters "polish" the water more and add some sparkle, but saying here that will start a "Filter War" so forget I said anything...

Both two way and three way Jandy valves are operated manually... But, if you want to control them with your phone, tablet, or PC, then you will need an actuator that mounts to the top of the valve and electrically turns it. The problem is that most automation systems only have the ability to control four valves.. but two of them are only for switching between the Pool and the Spa, which only leaves you two that you can decide how to use.. On some systems, you can buy additional valve drivers.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Jimrahbe]

tf,

I still can't get the manual to come up, but just looking at it, it appears to be a standalone unit and "might" not be controllable from an automation system... something you need to find out for sure before you install it.