Why is Yellow Out or Yellow Trine Harmful to your pool?

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TFP_Addict

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May 19, 2015
145
Burbank, California
Pool Size
23000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Liquid Chlorine
Why is Yellow Out or Yellow Trine harmful to your pool? Are they the same thing?

I was reading eariler that it "Complicates Things." Can anyone explain that a bit further?

Whatever you decide to do, please do not add that yellow out to your pool. It will add bromine to your pool that will only complicate things further (once a bromine pool, always a bromine pool).
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Why isn't there much (or any) pool school information on sodium bromine?

What am I missing here?
 
Because some of those Yellow products are ammonia. That just chews up your chlorine and complicates issues. Then you have to get rid of the ammonia.... what a waste of time and money.

Some also contain Bromine which changes a chlorine pool into a BROMINE pool for *evah!* and the only way to get rid of Bromine is to drain it out. Each time you add chlorine to it you're just re-energizing it up again! Again, another nuisance to chlorine pools and a waste of money.

Does that help explain it better??

Maddie :flower:
 
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Ammonia tests are fairly cheap, found at fish stores (the pet kind, not the eating kind. LOL) Ammonia containing products are rarely recommended, the only time I know of is when CYA is out the roof high with algae and water replacement not possible.

Bromine products- They are so long lasting that the only way to rid your pool of them in any easy way is to drain and re-fill. The chemical changes over time to a different form of bromine <name I can't recall> and then with added chlorine it is re-charged and raring to go again. Like an Energizer Bunny!

Best just to avoid these Yellow products completely.

Maddie :flower:
 
A quick forum search turned this up:

JasonLion said:
Chlorine added to a bromine pool reactivates the bromine. If you stop adding bromine, eventually a long time later you will run out of bromine to be reactivated. Generally bromine needs to be added at least once per year, often twice a year.

Bromine can be in two states, active sanitizing bromine, and inactive "banked" bromide. As long as you have enough bromine "in the bank" you can use chlorine to reactivate it. Bromide is lost very very slowly in normal usage. It can be lost more quickly if you pump or splash a lot of water out of the pool or when you backwash your filter (if your filter needs backwashing).

Bromine can't be stabilized against sunlight, so it is not a good choice for outdoor pools. It isn't impossible to use it outdoors, but you will lose a great deal of active bromine to sunlight, meaning higher chemical costs overall.
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So in essence, once you put bromine in a pool, the chlorine that you are adding to sanitize the pool instead is used to re-activate the bromine.

Here is a very good discussion on using bromine in a chlorine pool, again found by searching the forum:

http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/63397-Diammonium-Sulfate-YELLOW-OUT
 
To check for ammonia raise your FC up to 10 ppm and test in 10 minutes. If FC is below 5 repeat until FC holds above 5 ppm. This will oxidize any ammonia in the pool.
 
pooldv said:
To check for ammonia raise your FC up to 10 ppm and test in 10 minutes. If FC is below 5 repeat until FC holds above 5 ppm. This will oxidize any ammonia in the pool.
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Ok, sounds like an easy test.

domct203 said:
A quick forum search turned this up:

So in essence, once you put bromine in a pool, the chlorine that you are adding to sanitize the pool instead is used to re-activate the bromine.

Here is a very good discussion on using bromine in a chlorine pool, again found by searching the forum:

http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/63397-Diammonium-Sulfate-YELLOW-OUT
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What does that mean? Re-activate the bromine? Why is that bad? How long does bromine sit around in your pool? And if the bromine is reactivated, does that mean its now working and killing algae?

I kind of feel like you guys have repeated this over and over. And the responses are just short and simple.... as in just don't do it.

YippeeSkippy said:
Ammonia tests are fairly cheap, found at fish stores (the pet kind, not the eating kind. LOL) Ammonia containing products are rarely recommended, the only time I know of is when CYA is out the roof high with algae and water replacement not possible.

Bromine products- They are so long lasting that the only way to rid your pool of them in any easy way is to drain and re-fill. The chemical changes over time to a different form of bromine <name I can't recall> and then with added chlorine it is re-charged and raring to go again. Like an Energizer Bunny!

Best just to avoid these Yellow products completely.

Maddie :flower:
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How long is long lasting? the word 'long' could mean anything at this point. 1 month? 1 year? 5 years? Is it like CYA? Could it last forever if you continue to add more chlorine into the pool? I don't understand.

Chlorine added to a bromine pool reactivates the bromine. If you stop adding bromine, eventually a long time later you will run out of bromine to be reactivated. Generally bromine needs to be added at least once per year, often twice a year.

Bromine can be in two states, active sanitizing bromine, and inactive "banked" bromide. As long as you have enough bromine "in the bank" you can use chlorine to reactivate it. Bromide is lost very very slowly in normal usage. It can be lost more quickly if you pump or splash a lot of water out of the pool or when you backwash your filter (if your filter needs backwashing).

Bromine can't be stabilized against sunlight, so it is not a good choice for outdoor pools. It isn't impossible to use it outdoors, but you will lose a great deal of active bromine to sunlight, meaning higher chemical costs overall.
Click to expand...

"Eventually a long time later you will run out of bromine to be reactivated" How can this be measure?
"Bromide is lost very very slowly in normal usage." What is very slowly? What's a ballpark figure?
"Bromine can't be stabilized against sunlight" But he just said it lasts a long time. So what does that matter?
"So it is not a good choice for outdoor pools" To me it seems like an awesome chioce for people that never use their pool? Or am i mistaken? it all depends on my questions of how long does it last etc.
"but you will lose a great deal of active bromine to sunlight" But again in the previous statement, he said "it's lost very very slowly."

My last question is, if i'm not mistaken. I've check the pool school like 4 times for information on bromine, and I've seen nothing. Wouldn't it be helpful for others to have a bromine topic on there and its clear side effects or pitfalls? I get you guys are against using it, but you guys do also mention other topics you are against using as well.

Or is it there and i'm just a blind idiot :D
 

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First and foremost, you are confusing sodium bromide and bromine. Sodium bromide is nothing but a salt, when added to your pool any oxidizer will react with it creating bromine. The bromine then acts in the same capacity as chlorine. As it is used up it reverts back to bromide until reactivated. Bromine is inferior to chlorine as a sanitizer or oxidizer. The reason it is sold as an aide for pool care is that it is not stabilized by CYA, so when a pool is overstabilized you can add this and it allows the chlorine to fight the algae because it is no longer hindered by the CYA. This is nothing but a bandage, the real and lasting solution is always to lower the CYA level. We don't recommend bandages here, we recommend fixing the problems.

Since bromine is not affected by CYA then you lose the benefits of CYA. It will be nearly as harsh as a pool without stabilizer (think public pools), but more importantly it is not protected from the sun. Bromine is destroyed by the UV of sunlight almost as quickly as unstabilized chlorine. Outdoor bromine pools quickly lose their bromine during the day and need to be watched more carefully than TFP chlorine pools.

You cannot measure sodium bromide, once you add it to the water it is there. When you add chlorine it converts whatever amount of bromide in the pool to bromine. If you use one of these products and end up with 2 ppm bromide in the pool then you will always end up with that much bromine when you add chlorine. Bromine and chlorine react the same in tests, you can't tell which is which. If there is too much bromide then you could end up with an entirely bromine pool. Then when you are adjusting for your CYA level and adding what should be enough FC you end up with a very uncomfortable pool because it becomes unstabilized bromine. Also as the bromine burns off in the sunlight any chlorine will just reactivate it so even just a little bit can cause significant chlorine demand compared to a pool with none.

Finally, I really want to drive the point home that seems to be the root of your confusion. Bromide is NOT a sanitizer or oxidizer. If you dump bromide in a pool with no chlorine it will do absolutely nothing. It must be activated by chlorine or another oxidizer before it will form bromine and do anything. Bromide lasts a long time in a pool, bromine does not. So no, it is not "an awesome choice" for anybody with an outdoor pool. It is a pretty awful choice. The only way to remove bromide from a pool is to remove the water, which if you added a bunch means pretty much a 100% water change. So there is no "trying it out" or "just using it to get ahead on the algae" or anything like that, once you add bromide to your pool it is there and you are stuck with it.

Please don't take offense, but your lack of understanding is exactly why I hate that companies sell this stuff as they do. People don't understand the ramifications of what they are adding to their pool and the companies are slapping some "algaecide" label on this stuff and getting people in trouble. Even Jack's Magic, which we normally feel is a great company for their sequestrants, plays that game and it enrages me. It won't even help any in a pool that isn't overstabilized, nor will it do anything in a pool that doesn't already have chlorine in it! There really is virtually no reason to ever use it in the fashion it is being marketed as.

Oh, and as far as products using ammonia (both use the YELLOW name, for some reason), pretty much the same idea. It reacts with chlorine creating CC which can be a positive thing in an overstabilized pool. Again, just a bandage covering the actual problem. One plus for it against bromide is that once you clear up the CCs from the ammonia product it is gone and done. I still would recommend against it, fix the problem so it doesn't happen again, but at least it is only temporarily in the water.
 
The bottom line is that TFP teaches to test your own water and only add what you need. You will always know what it needs and what you are adding. No guess work. Ever.

I was terribly disappointed to learn that Jack's sells Yellow Stuff, which is just sodium bromide, for a pool. I have since stopped recommending any Jack's products because that is such an awful product that I just cannot support it. I would love for any company to come on TFP and tell us why they sell or recommend sodium bromide for chlorine pools, what they think it does for the pool and how to properly manage a pool that has had bromide added to it. I expect that all we would get is blank stares if we asked them that question directly.

Here is a list of everything that you should ever put in your pool, and you won't need some of this either. Pool School - Recommended Pool Chemicals

All I have ever out in my pool is
Salt
Muriatic acid
Bleach from Kroger
Borax
Cyanuric acid
Probably a little beer :)

My pool has been crystal clear since it was filled in the summer of 2012.
 
YippeeSkippy said:
I guess I'm curious now..... did you do it? Did you add bromine to your chlorine pool?

Maddie :flower:
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I figured someone was going to eventually ask, but I hope it doesn't turn into a topic about my pool and instead for just higher level understanding about the topic at hand.
Because I really want to understand how it works and I've searched online for information and it's just the same nonsense with a comparison with chlorine and how its more expensive. mknauss link was nothing but explaining HOW to use the bromine method, and not how it actually works. And anything chemgeek says looks like Chinese.

I did about a year ago. I mentioned it in a Thread on this website. The city I live in doesn't allow you to drain your pool due to a drought.
The CYA is the biggest issue. Around this time of year, yellow algae forms. And it costs me around 40-50 bucks of shock and chlorinate to get the pool to even 10-15 ppm. The rest of the year, even if we don't add any chlorine or a minimal amount, we won't see any algae forming. I did end up using some Yellow Trine to kill off the yellow algae, and it worked beautifully. But I did end up using the entire bottle. 3 LB (98% Sodium Bromide).

After reading Donldson's Post. It all makes sense to me now. Yes I was 100% confused on how it actually worked. It makes perfect sense now. Thank you. I personally think that should be added to pool school, because that would of helped me a great deal before I purchased this cr@p back then.

My biggest issues with my pool. I can't drain. No one uses the pool EVER. And yellow algae comes around once a year (this time)

Readings as of today. (After recent shock)

FC: 2 (Going to buy more chlorine today)
pH: 8+ (Need more acid)
TA: 120 (When I first took over it was at around 200).
CH: 825 (We were getting water from the Colorado river due to the drought) So scaling is a huge issue. Nothing I can do about that.
CYA: 90-100? maybe less maybe more, that black dot test is the bane of my existence.

So yea, it's all screwed up. And because we've been using pucks for such a long time before I took over. And all the pool equipment problems. I've been struggling to say the least. And now this freaking Sodium Bromide issue came creeping out of no where.

I've decided to buy a personal water pump. And pump water out of my pool into the garden, tree's and bushes (and turn off the sprinkler system) 1 hour a day, and slowly refill the pool.
Until CYA is at 50, and CH is at 400 at least. Because I really don't see any other choice. And i'm spending an arm and a leg on chlorine.

I guess my final questions are...
Since you can't measure sodium bromide, and I've dumped 3lb of it awhile back.
How much should i worry about it?
How much sodium bromide does it take before the entire pool converts to a bromine pool?

I'm thinking since I've already decided to slowly recycle my pool water, it should probably take care of it's self.
 
Did you add Yellow Out, or Yellow Trine? They are not the same thing. I think there is more than one company selling a Yellow Out product, can you find the exact bottle you used online and post a link? Before answering any of those final questions we should probaby make sure you added sodium bromide to the pool.
 
I will comment on the scaling. There are several people at TFP with much higher CH than 825. I think you can control future scaling by diligently maintaining your pH in the 7.2 to 7.5 range.

As you drain off the water, and lower that CH (going to be slow if your fill water is high), your range will become more flexible.

No comments on bromide/bromine
 
jagger2005 said:
I will comment on the scaling. There are several people at TFP with much higher CH than 825. I think you can control future scaling by diligently maintaining your pH in the 7.2 to 7.5 range.

As you drain off the water, and lower that CH (going to be slow if your fill water is high), your range will become more flexible.

No comments on bromide/bromine
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As I continue to drain slowly, what will happen to the current scaling on the bottom of the pool? Will it eventually begin to disappear? Or does it need an acid wash no matter what?

I've been using so much acid that it's really starting to get annoying and costly, especially for a home that never uses the pool. The pH levels raises so fast. And I don't know what it's from.
In the beginning, it was obvious from the TA level (200). Now that it's at 120. How much more do I need to drop it? 80? Or should I keep it at 100?

I had a pool guy tell me that my pH is being eaten by the Calcium scaling. It sounded like nonsense tbh. But I recently looked up a document on our city tap water that it's at 8.1-8.4 pH. Maybe that could be the issue?
I really don't know and SICK of dropping this much money on acid every month with my never ending battle balancing the pH.

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https://www.burbankwaterandpower.com/images/water/downloads/WaterQualityReport_2016.pdf
 
Yes, scale eating up pH is baloney. High TA constantly pushes pH up. Your TA will will likely do best at 60-80. Once your TA is lower your pH will rise slower.

Use PoolMath to calculate your CSI after you enter all your test results and manage your CSI to prevent scale. To slowly remove scale over time keep the CSI lower and brush. More here, Pool School - Calcium Scaling
 
Hopefully one of the moderators who have posted will contact the people with high CH to answer your questions.

One piece of advice they will reiterated is lower your pH to 7.2 (might be lower in your situation), let it rise to 7.8 (right now you may want to target 7.6 to prevent more scaling), drop it back down to 7.2. Eventually you will start to see TA go down, and you will not have to add so often. There is no set number for TA. I am at 80, once I get it down to around 60, I rarely need to add. Unfortunately, lack of rain is messing up my plan
 

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