What does this look like to you? Yes, again!

[ps0303]

I was called by another homeowner where I had installed a pool heater back in 12/2015. Customer said heater is leaking. Removed the header/manifold and I saw this, see picture. I had already suspected what was going on.

Spoke to the homeowner and they said that they had called their home warranty company and their guy said it was a leaking heat exchanger. Homeowner called their pool service company and they said they didn't do anything to cause this and had records to prove it. Well there is only ONE thing that can cause this to happen.

I tell homeowners all the time, spot check your pool service company if you have one. Make sure they are doing what they say they are.

The homeowner is now going to have to deal with getting the pool service company to pay for this.

 

[JamesW]

Looks like super low pH. What was the chemistry when you checked it?

Is there a tab feeder?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Paul,

For those of us that do not have heaters, nor any heater experience, would you please explain what we are looking at and what is wrong..

I see a little white corrosion, but don't see anything obvious (to me) that looks bad. I'm sure it is, but don't know what I should be looking for..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[JamesW]

The bright orange of the copper is indicative of very corrosive water chemistry. Typically, very low pH is the cause.

The copper should look like typical copper pipe with kind of a dull brown patina.

 

[CJadamec]

The insides of the tubes should not be red. That color is caused by heat and pH issues aggressively corroding the insides of the heat exchanger tubes. Ideally those tubes should be a dull grey, white scale, or blackish in color. Scale isn't ideal but you can at least clean it out that red color means the metal in the tube is gone and has turned very brittle.

 

[Jimrahbe]

James / CJ,

Thanks for the feedback.. To be honest, I thought the orange was some type of coating that was supposed to be there...

Good thing I don't do heater work...

Jim R.

 

[AftonJeeper]

Any idea how long it takes for this kind of damage to happen? Are we talking a couple weeks at 6.8?

 

[JamesW]

Typically, that type of damage is due to pH below 4.5.

The damage gets exponentially worse as the pH gets lower.

 

[tstex]

Any idea how long it takes for this kind of damage to happen? Are we talking a couple weeks at 6.8?

Ditto on Afton's question, and is the time for damage shortened if the heater is used to intensify the reaction or just the same w non-heated/ambient temp water?

- - - Updated - - -

a pH of 4.5 is pretty darn low...at what pH does it start to impact the copper and how long and what type of circumstances does it take to cause damage?

 

[JamesW]

Typically, the pH needs to be pretty low to do that type of damage. High chlorine or bromine levels accelerate the damage. Excessive water velocity increases the damage. Excessive heat rise accelerates the damage. A nearby tab feeder can create a very corrosive environment.

 

[tstex]

Typically, the pH needs to be pretty low to do that type of damage. High chlorine or bromine levels accelerate the damage. Excessive water velocity increases the damage. Excessive heat rise accelerates the damage. A nearby tab feeder can create a very corrosive environment.

Thanks James - I sure hope that if anyone has a tab feeder, it's installed on the outbound side/return of the heater and never right before it...

 

[ps0303]

Here is a picture of what a heat exchanger should look like. Notice how the copper tubing extends past the metal collar. That is the way it should look like. Of course not as shinny though. This is a new heat exchanger.

If the water is very aggressive/acidic, it could take a month or so to eat thru the copper.

Also keep in mind I had posted similar of a heat exchanger that was cupro-nickle last week that showed the same type damage although I didn't have to take the header off because the leak had sprayed water all over inside and destroyed various parts.

 

[tstex]

Wow, so the corrosion was so bad it ate the protruding parts of the copper in your first pic. Where does that "eaten" copper go? into the water or is it oxidized into something else?

 

[Donldson]

Would love to see the testing records the pool company kept, as well as the method used to test.

Is this a salt pool? We all know only salt pools cause this kind of damage

 

[borjis]

wow!

For a second I thought the bright orange was some kind of liquid gasket material. (automotive background here)

 

[ps0303]

wow!

For a second I thought the bright orange was some kind of liquid gasket material. (automotive background here)

There is a coating on the metal collar area before they insert the cooper tubes and that is what you are seeing.

 

[peirek]

Would love to see the testing records the pool company kept, as well as the method used to test.

Is this a salt pool? We all know only salt pools cause this kind of damage

Clearly a salt pool. We need a forum for Salt Water Wives Tales.... ::

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Copper metal becomes unstable in water when the pH drops below 7. The Cu2+ ion is the more stable species. At a pH above 7, the Cu(OH)2 species is stable and forms a passive layer that slowly converts to CuO overtime. However, the oxides are very easily removed at low pH and so you really want a carbonate layer to help buffer against metal loss. All things being equal, calcium carbonate, once formed, dissolves much slower than CuO at a given pH.

I bet a dozen Dunkin’ Donuts that the Service company was dropping pucks in the skimmer and probably adding other chemicals that way too.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

I bet a dozen Dunkin’ Donuts that the Service company was dropping pucks in the skimmer and probably adding other chemicals that way too.

Yet as mentioned earlier, impossible to prove if the owners never bothered to check behind the pool service agents. What a shame. <sigh> So, how much to fix would you say, Paul? Total replacement or just parts and labor?

Maddie

 

[ps0303]

I do not know what the records look like for this pool. I used to do heater installs for this pool service company but after issues with them I quit doing anything with the company.

YippeeSkippy, I can replace the heat exchanger and it would be good. P&L is over $1K. I did verify that it still fires. Leak is on the back corner so pilot assembly is in good shape. Homeowners never did check behind the service company to see if they were doing their job. Kind of sad companies don't do what they are hired to do. It takes very little time to manage a pool properly.

Side note. The same pool service company the day before told another customer that she needed to replace the board on her Easytouch system because ants had gotten on it and shorted it out. Customer had complained to them that the pool wasn't coming on at its normal time. I also installed her heater so she called me to look at the controller issue. Yes there were a few ants on the board but I've never seen an ant short a board. 2 ants is all I found. However, when I went in her house to look at the controller on the wall I noticed the time was on AM when it should have been on PM. She set it wrong when we had the time change. Pool has been running on schedule ever since.

Not all pool service companies are like this. But if you do use one, sometimes you have to question them and don't always take their word for things that might be wrong. Like many pool stores, they make more money off repairs and selling you chemicals.