Water softener installation!!

[CaptainCannonball]

My softener is a two stage elimination system - a granular activates carbon tank inline with a 54k grain softener tank. So the GAC tank takes care of chlorine/chloramine/VOCs and the softener removes calcium. The softener water tastes fine to me and my household and there is no health risk to drinking softened water unless you happen to have renal disease and no one here does. The only difference between softened water and unsoftened water is no calcium/magnesium and an increase in sodium. Chloride increase is minimal. RO water, if it’s functioning properly, will have no metal ions or anions (chloride, carbonate, etc) in it. Polishing tanks add back a small amount of hardness and alkalinity as RO water tends to be mildly acidic and would, in and of itself, damage plumbing over time.

RO waste water is going to have higher concentrations of all ionic species in it. I would not use it for irrigation purposes as it would, overtime, increase soil sodicity and thus lead to osmotic stress on the root system and rhizosphere. In a region where rainfall is plentiful, that’s not much of a concern but in an arid climate such as mine, using brine discharge or RO waste water would be toxic to the soil.

i didn't see a carbon filter in your setup, is it integrated with the resin bed? If you are stripping Cl out before your house plumbing, be aware you can grow some funky stuff in places like your water heater.

Concentrations in spent wastewater from RO would be minimal and unlikely to impact plants more than normal tap water.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I got my K-1722 today -





Did a little happy dance and then went to test my water. I have to say I really line the Taylor Total Hardness (TH) reagent - it’s a very deep wine-red when hardness is present and then a mid-range blue with zero hardness and the transition is sharp. So, here are the stats (MH= magnesium hardness) -

Softener -
CH = 0ppm
TH = 0ppm
MH = 0ppm

Municipal Water
CH = 180ppm
TH = 210ppm
MH = 30ppm

Pool Water
CH = 1320ppm
TH = 1560ppm
MH = 240ppm

Now for the pool I did a 1:3 dilution of pool water with distilled water to cut down on the chlorine levels and make the test use a reasonable number of tutrating drops. So the error bars are larger on those numbers. However I did use my Taylor tube with SampleSizer so I’m reasonable confident in my dilution. Either way, the pool definitely needs to be drained.

I’m having the tile cleaned tomorrow so draining and diluting with fresh water will commence after that.

 

[Arizonarob]

You planning on doing the tarp method in this heat I hope.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

You planning on doing the tarp method in this heat I hope.

No way, tarps are for losers

I’m going to be draining from the deep end while I fill through the skimmer on the other side of the pool. I have water flow meters on both hoses that I can use to balance the flow rates. The TDS difference between the input water and the pool water should ensure good separation and adding the water through the skimmer (all pumps off) will ensure a slow distribution into the water.

It will be the “invisible tarp” method

 

[Dirk]

No way, tarps are for losers

I’m going to be draining from the deep end while I fill through the skimmer on the other side of the pool. I have water flow meters on both hoses that I can use to balance the flow rates. The TDS difference between the input water and the pool water should ensure good separation and adding the water through the skimmer (all pumps off) will ensure a slow distribution into the water.

It will be the “invisible tarp” method

I am VERY interested in this method and how well it works. I really want it to, because it's exactly how I'd want to exchange water. Keep us posted!

Unfortunately for me, my skimmer is in the deep end, but I imagine it wouldn't take too much to devise a way to float a layer of water onto the pool's surface in my shallow end without it diving too far down below the surface level. Which will be the topic of a future thread someday...

 

[Arizonarob]

No way, tarps are for losers

I’m going to be draining from the deep end while I fill through the skimmer on the other side of the pool. I have water flow meters on both hoses that I can use to balance the flow rates. The TDS difference between the input water and the pool water should ensure good separation and adding the water through the skimmer (all pumps off) will ensure a slow distribution into the water.

It will be the “invisible tarp” method

Ahhhh, the force is strong with this one! I too shall be watching your endeavors. May the Schwartz be with you.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So here’s the drain portion of it (I was draining to setup for my tile cleaning guy that was coming...new post on that soon ) -

Submersible pump (1/4 HP) -



Standard 5/8” garden hose down the front yard -



And a Sotera flow meter -









The Sotera does both flow rate and volume totalizing. I have a second one for my input fill hose with added PVC parts to make an easy connection to the skimmer lid -



My sub pump does about 5 GPM and I e previously measured my spigot at 6.5GPM so I should be able to match flows nicely when I start doing drains and fills.

Here’s a teaser shot of the tile guy -



That’s an old VW engine he converted into an air compressor. Here’s the money shot though -



STOP STARING!! It’s not polite

 

[bdavis466]

A piston compressor for his line of work

I would escort him right off the property :gone:

 

[Arizonarob]

That’s freaking awesome!!!!! I want one now.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

A piston compressor for his line of work

I would escort him right off the property :gone:

You’re such a tool.....snob.

Apparently he found done DIY mechanics forum that had the plans for how to build that thing. He built it all himself on the cheap...Impressive. He’s actually a middle school math teacher at the local school district and he does pool tile cleaning on the side to make extra money (his wife operates an at home business too...probably LuLa Roe ). He normally only works with “A”-List customers so, since I’m a “D”-List’er at best, he only agreed to do my pool if I promised to polish his exhaust pipes ...

Down side to whole process - a ginormous clouded pool to clean up. Looks like I’ll be working on the pool again this weekend....but, at least the scale is gone -

 

[Dirk]

What did he do to remove the scale? Also, did the scale develop in spite of “perfect” TFP water, or did you slip up?

 

[CaptainCannonball]

Did the scale removal increase your hardness by an appreciable amount?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

What did he do to remove the scale? Also, did the scale develop in spite of “perfect” TFP water, or did you slip up?

My water was always balanced in terms of CSI but, given Tucson's enormous evaporation rates, you can't make that assumption at the water line. There will always be scaling there and the best way to keep it to a minimum is to keep your CH within normal levels. My CH is currently huge (over 1000ppm) so there's no way to avoid evaporite and scale deposits.

See my latest post for details - MaxxStrip Tile Cleaning in Tucson

Did the scale removal increase your hardness by an appreciable amount?

I'll pull a water sample tomorrow and test TH and CH to see if there was an appreciable rise in magnesium hardness. I was removing water from the deep end well while refilling through the skimmer in the shallow end so there was a significant exchange of polluted/fresh water...see the link above for details.

 

[CaptainCannonball]

I wonder if you could save water by pumping pool water directly through a softener? Maybe even pick up an inexpensive or used softener since the higher Cl would damage the resin. It would only take a few regenerations worth to greatly reduce total hardness and you wouldn't lose salt. I am curious as to what impact the salt in the pool water would have in that scenario.

Maybe it it wouldn't work, just an idea for you

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I wonder if you could save water by pumping pool water directly through a softener? Maybe even pick up an inexpensive or used softener since the higher Cl would damage the resin. It would only take a few regenerations worth to greatly reduce total hardness and you wouldn't lose salt. I am curious as to what impact the salt in the pool water would have in that scenario.

Maybe it it wouldn't work, just an idea for you

Chlorine and any metals would quickly degrade the resin. Also, the exchange reaction is very competitive, that is there’s a low energy threshold difference between the sodium-laden resin and the calcium laden resin. So if there was any salt (sodium) present, it would cause an exchange to occur and the calcium would be released. In an SWG pool, sodium levels are far higher than calcium levels so it wouldn’t really work very well.

RO filtration works in pools but, unless a large scale unit is used with a high input pressure, the waste fraction can be substantial and cost difference no better than just draining and refilling.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, I updated the scale removal thread with hardness test data. TH and CH both decreased since there was a lot of fresh water exchange. However magnesium hardness remained constant so the blasting media added magnesium sulfate to the pool. But, to the best of my estimates, it’s less than 20ppm MgSO4 which really isn’t much at all.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So, after a few months of use, I’ve noticed just how chlorinated my city water is. My kitchen sink has an interesting plumbing configuration - hot water is softened (as is all hot water in the house) but the cold water line is not softened. My softener is a dual-media filter - GAC to remove chlorine, organics, heavy metals, etc, and then the standard hardness ion exchange resin. So my softened water is also chlorine/chloramine free. My city water is supplied with an FC at 0.8-1.0 ppm and CCs are at 0.5ppm. So, whenever I rinse stuff with cold water at the kitchen sink, I can definitely smell the chlorine/chloramine in the water.

 

[Arizonarob]

Why did you have it plumbed to only the hot water? The cold water (yeah, like we have “cold” water here! )will still cause scale build up. I mean besides the kitchen sink for drinking water purposes, (if you drink the water here you’re nuts anyway) everything else besides your front hose bib should be soft water.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Why did you have it plumbed to only the hot water? The cold water (yeah, like we have “cold” water here! )will still cause scale build up. I mean besides the kitchen sink for drinking water purposes, (if you drink the water here you’re nuts anyway) everything else besides your front hose bib should be soft water.

No, sorry, let me explain it better.

The service loop in the garage provides softened water to both water heaters (we have a two water heaters in the house), to the cold water pipe in the laundry room, hot/cold water on all the bathrooms. The only places that don’t get softened water is the cold water line in the kitchen (sink & refrigerator line), outdoor spigots and the supply pipe that runs out to the casita (as it was built after the house and would require its own softener).

So yes, most of the cold water pipes in the house are softened. It’s just the kitchen that is not. Makes sense because if you’re just rinsing stuff off with cold water, why waste softener water on it. The hot water in the kitchen is softened and that supplies the dishwasher so there’s no worries there. The refrigerator has its own filter cartridge and you really don’t want to drink softener water anyway. Many people don’t like the taste of it and folks with renal issues don’t need the excess sodium. I don’t have RO in the kitchen (although it could be installed easy enough).

 

[chiefwej]

Appears that it isn’t uncommon for it to be plumbed that way. There are three water connections under my sink, hot and cold (both softened) and a third untreated cold connection. So it’s my choice which to put at my tap. Some run the untreated water through a filter for a small drinking water tap, although I’ve added an RO system for just that purpose.

I have also connected my pool’s top-up water supply to softened water. So now my calcium level takes just a bit longer to get over the 1000 mark.

 

[Arizonarob]

Yup, that’s the way mine is set up.