VS or 2 speed pump

[Buck Russell]

Chris- Thank you for running those numbers and your explanation.

Marty- Any reason to go above a 1.5 hp motor?

 

[mas985]

So back to your pump issue. I got the curves for the Super Pump. Look at the black dotted line for SP2610X15. Y axis is your discharge pressure in ft of head. 15 psi is about 34.6 ft of head. So your flow rate at this condition is about 70 gpm. If you use the 2 speed equivalent you can't get enough pressure to flow anywhere near this amount. Maximum discharge pressure would be 17 ft of head. 6 of this would be required just to overcome the elevation could be more if your fountain is over 6' high. The rest of the pressure drop would be to overcome pressure drop in pipe, valves, fittings, and filter. My rough estimate would be 10 gpm. The actual flow depends on the elevation difference and a little more detail on the piping.

Return head (via PSI) is only part of the total head loss in plumbing. It doesn't include suction head, the head loss between the pump and filter and the head loss in the multi-port valve. If you include those items (assumed 35' runs with 1.5" plumbing), it would be more like 63 GPM @ 56'. Also, height of waterfall is only 2.5'.

But given the picture, I would hazard to guess that the some of the water is being bypassed around the waterfall to the pool returns?

If that is the case, then it really complicates the estimates because there is no way to know how much flow is being bypassed and if that bypass will work at half speed.

If you want a true estimate, I would need a lot more details about the pool plumbing and equipment plus pressure measurements with just the returns and just the waterfall.

 

[mknauss]

Marty- Any reason to go above a 1.5 hp motor?

If you want what you are currently getting out the waterfall and the pool returns, and be able to run the pump at a lower speed, then yes, you need a larger VS pump.

Any chance you can turn off the waterfall for daily operation and just turn it on when you can be there to enjoy it?

 

[Buck Russell]

Return head (via PSI) is only part of the total head loss in plumbing. It doesn't include suction head, the head loss between the pump and filter and the head loss in the multi-port valve. If you include those items (assumed 35' runs with 1.5" plumbing), it would be more like 63 GPM @ 56'. Also, height of waterfall is only 2.5'.

But given the picture, I would hazard to guess that the some of the water is being bypassed around the waterfall to the pool returns?

If that is the case, then it really complicates the estimates because there is no way to know how much flow is being bypassed and if that bypass will work at half speed.

If you want a true estimate, I would need a lot more details about the pool plumbing and equipment plus pressure measurements with just the returns and just the waterfall.

I believe you are correct on the water being bypassed. I have only 2 return pipes at the pad. Those 2 pipes are servicing 2 returns plus a pressure plug-in plus the waterfall. I may play with the return valves tomorrow and see what lines are servicing what features.

If you want what you are currently getting out the waterfall and the pool returns, and be able to run the pump at a lower speed, then yes, you need a larger VS pump.

Any chance you can turn off the waterfall for daily operation and just turn it on when you can be there to enjoy it?

Yes, the waterfall has a valve at the waterfall ( as shown in pic ). Older, hard to operate valve that will be replaced when I redo pad.

Good idea to close during day to day operations and open occasionally as wanted.

 

[jimmythegreek]

If you are going to replace the swg anyway and get a new pump it's a no brainer to get a matched set and add automation. I have the Hayward swg and it was around 1k to get it bundled with a prolific controller. I added a Hayward ecostar for under 1k and have automation and control for everything with 1 button pushes. If your waterfall has it's own line you can program the speeds and the valves to open with just a push of a button whenever you want them on or off. Most swg are in the 600-700 range standalone some even higher for name brands and you work off of timers. Depending how you electric is at the equipment pad you may have easy work of the hookup or need additional work that you may not be able to DIY not sure how comfy you are with it. My thought is just that if you are doing a new pump and cleaning toward a VS and you will replace the swg anyway you are 80% to the cost of a matching system with automation and it's really nice for ease of use. Wife can just push a button when she wants waterfall going.

 

[HeyEng]

This is mentioned occasionally, but I think it bears repeating. If you decide to go with the VS pump, give serious consideration to a surge suppression solution. These pumps are very expensive and the electronics are quite susceptible to power surges that can fry them, making them useless. If you wire it yourself, this can be done for $100'ish bucks...a good electrician could get one installed for $200'ish bucks. Cheap insurance as far as I am concerned.

 

[jonpcar]

Good idea to close during day to day operations and open occasionally as wanted.

Buck, I had a manual valve for control of my waterfall for 20+ years, and only turned it on a few times (right after the pool was built) because it was such a pain (well, and my original waterfall was not that great looking, haha). You really do want automation of the flow to the falls if you want to enjoy them (even occasionally).

An unrelated suggestion: it looks like your waterfall is splashing-back/dripping-back water to its foundation and onto your deck. From my experience, getting a waterfall to look decent cascading over a natural stone ledge requires a pretty high volume. You can possibly improve all three of those issues ("look", "splashback", "high volume requirement") by adding a "lip" to your waterfall ledge.

Here is what I ended up doing:
COMPLETED: DIY Travertine Pool / Patio / Waterfall Remodel in AZ

Unless we have kids in the pool (who like high flow), this lip allows us to run our waterfalls at a very low volume for the "trickle sound" ambiance and look.

 

[Buck Russell]

If you are going to replace the swg anyway and get a new pump it's a no brainer to get a matched set and add automation. I have the Hayward swg and it was around 1k to get it bundled with a prolific controller. I added a Hayward ecostar for under 1k and have automation and control for everything with 1 button pushes. If your waterfall has it's own line you can program the speeds and the valves to open with just a push of a button whenever you want them on or off. Most swg are in the 600-700 range standalone some even higher for name brands and you work off of timers. Depending how you electric is at the equipment pad you may have easy work of the hookup or need additional work that you may not be able to DIY not sure how comfy you are with it. My thought is just that if you are doing a new pump and cleaning toward a VS and you will replace the swg anyway you are 80% to the cost of a matching system with automation and it's really nice for ease of use. Wife can just push a button when she wants waterfall going.

I understand what you are saying as far as new VS pump and SWG, I’m prepared to buy both. I just don’t know if automation is something we need or can even get use out of with our set-up. Automation sounds great and I’m all for it if it can be explained how it would make my life easier.

Let me explain what I know about the pool so far. I’ll include pic of pad and pool.

2 suction lines (1 from 2 skimmers and 1 from main drain)
2 return lines (1 operates 2 main returns in pool and waterfall marked in red)
(1 operates 2 returns at steps marked in yellow)
1 pressure line with booster ( this will be converted to another return and booster
removed along with clorinator removed during
plumbing of the pad - marked in blue)
1 pool light with the only switch I’ve found being inside garage

That’s it, a pretty simple system. With the waterfall being on the same return as the main pool returns, I cannot isolate the waterfall. There is a valve at the waterfall I can manually operate when needed, but could not automate it I don’t believe.

I haven’t even brought up the “how to re plumb and re wire the pad” discussion. I was trying to get pump and SWG figured out and go from there, but it all ties together. I don’t want to get everything here and ready to go and wish I would’ve taken advantage of some of the new technology and automation if any applies to me.

 

[Buck Russell]

This is mentioned occasionally, but I think it bears repeating. If you decide to go with the VS pump, give serious consideration to a surge suppression solution. These pumps are very expensive and the electronics are quite susceptible to power surges that can fry them, making them useless. If you wire it yourself, this can be done for $100'ish bucks...a good electrician could get one installed for $200'ish bucks. Cheap insurance as far as I am concerned.

I do want to install surge protection. Do you recommend whole house protection at the main box, or do I protect at the 240v breakers by the pool equipment?

Can anyone suggest a good surge protector?

 

[Buck Russell]

Buck, I had a manual valve for control of my waterfall for 20+ years, and only turned it on a few times (right after the pool was built) because it was such a pain (well, and my original waterfall was not that great looking, haha). You really do want automation of the flow to the falls if you want to enjoy them (even occasionally).

An unrelated suggestion: it looks like your waterfall is splashing-back/dripping-back water to its foundation and onto your deck. From my experience, getting a waterfall to look decent cascading over a natural stone ledge requires a pretty high volume. You can possibly improve all three of those issues ("look", "splashback", "high volume requirement") by adding a "lip" to your waterfall ledge.

Here is what I ended up doing:
COMPLETED: DIY Travertine Pool / Patio / Waterfall Remodel in AZ

Unless we have kids in the pool (who like high flow), this lip allows us to run our waterfalls at a very low volume for the "trickle sound" ambiance and look.

I’m considering rebuilding the waterfall all together. But if I just repaired what is there, are you talking about the rubber looking lip on your waterfall build?

Nice build write up by the way.

 

[jonpcar]

Buck, yes the rubber lip is what I am talking about...I mention in the text exactly what I used but that was about 5 years ago and don’t know if they still carry it at Home Depot. I am sure there would be something comparable. It’s held up great even with the intense sun/heat here in AZ.

 

[HeyEng]

I do want to install surge protection. Do you recommend whole house protection at the main box, or do I protect at the 240v breakers by the pool equipment?

Can anyone suggest a good surge protector?

We are in a "new" home and have yet to install a surge suppressor. In our last house, we had one at the meter (through the power company) and also one installed at the main panel. I also had surge power strips for the electronics. Was it over kill? Probably. But, where we lived...there were lots of lightning storms and while we had neighbors a couple of houses down that had stuff get fried, we always lucked out.

Anyway, we have a pretty complex electrical system now and we are having a generator installed and will have the suppressor installed concurrently. I will have one suppressor at the main box and maybe one by the pool subpanel. I do not have a VS motor at this time, but figure that if we do get one, then I will already have the suppressor installed.

The one we are installing at the main panel is the Siemens FS140 and runs about $250.00

One last note. Although a good surge suppressor is a good line of defense, there are NONE out there that can protect from a "direct" lightning hit. Some may make that claim, but if you read the warranty information on what they will cover in the event of a loss...they will expressly say something to the line of "direct lighting hits ARE NOT COVERED."

 

[jimmythegreek]

the way the plumbing is setup is not great at all, you have nothing you can isolate, im surprised they did it like this. without rewiring the light to an automation panel, and changing out the valve at the waterfall with an actuated valve and a chaser wire back to the box, you wouldnt really gain anything. you would be able to program and control your pump and the SWG much easier, but you would also need to do something with the 240v line coming in and wire that to the automation panel and use it as a sub panel. if you arent looking to do electrical work you can probably just replace what you have there and use old school timers

 

[markayash]

I just installed my pureline 1.65 VS pump and like it so far..My old pump was too big ( my fault thinking bigger is better years ago ) and now my filter pressure dropped from 12 to around 7 with new filters and the water fall spa is still flowing great. I am still playing around with different speeds but even at 2600 rpm's I get enough flow.
Hoping it will save on energy since I run my pump 24x7 from April till around October.
I have a 18000 Kidney shaped pool with a big 4 filter Hayward ( 4030 I think )