Upgrading Waterfall - Add Pump?

[tbrennan]

Hi - We finished our pool build last year, and have a new waterfall feature being added in the next 2 weeks to replace the one we threw together at the tail end of our build. Currently, we have a 2" line, tee'd off to (3) scuppers in slate stone. The IntelliFlo VSF is set to come on max RPM when all of the returns/features are "ON". Our new waterfall will have (1) 18" sheer water feature, and (2) scuppers on either side. I am worried using the one pump is not going to be enough.

Our PB ran (2) suction lines to the equipment pad, (1) with both main drains, and (1) with both skimmers. So I assume I have the following options, and do not know which is best?

- Leave as is, and feed the jet returns, tanning ledges blubbers, and waterfall from the IntelliFlo VSF
- Add a booster pump that will turn on as needed (suggestion of the hardscape company doing the waterfall install)
- Add a fixed speed pump feed from the skimmer suction line, just for the waterfall return (set and forget a valve for any water adjustment)
- Add a variable speed pump feed from the skimmer suction line, just for the waterfall (can make flow adjustments in the programming as needed)

If using a fixed speed pump, which Pentair model is suggested? If using a varible speed pump, which Pentair model is suggested? I know the waterfall features like higher flow vs higher pressure?

I want to keep everything Pentair - I have valve and data expansion modules on our IC already, and have plenty of open ports.

Thank you!

 

[mas985]

You need to do an inventory of each water feature and the required flow rate. Then you can determine if the Intelliflo is sufficient or not.

It is hard to determine exactly how many water features you have based on your description. Can you list each and every water feature along with the manufactures recommended flow rate?

 

[tbrennan]

Thank you Mark!

Here is what we have;


RETURN LINE A (2” @ 85'):
(3) Hayward SP1419C Return Eye Fitting
*10 GPM Each*


*30 GPM Total*





RETURN LINE B (2” @ 92'):
(2) CMP 25503-470 4" LED BUBBLERS
*38 GPM Each*


*76 GPM Total*





RETURN LINE C (2” @ 100ft) PROPOSED :
(2) Atlantic WSR-O Wall Spouts
*10 GPM Each*

(1) CMP 25576-180 18” Waterfall
*18 GPM*


*38 GPM Total*

Currently, Return Line C has (3) generic wall spouts that have no minimum flow requirements, but if pump isnt running at max, they struggle when everything else (Return Lines A & B) is open.

 

[mas985]

Water features don't necessarily need to run at the same time as the main returns. Usually, the water features are only on when the pool is being used. Most of the time, you will probably only use the main returns. So you could run either the water features OR the returns. However, it is unlikely you could get enough flow rate out of the pump for everything at the same time.

The waters features alone require a total of 114 which is doable with the Intelliflo with the appropriate plumbing setup. Your signature shows a heat pump which has a LOT of head loss and will reduce flow rates considerably. It doesn't look like you have a spa so I suppose the reason you have a HP is that you plan on using that most of the time for the pool? If so, then you will probably want a separate pump for at least some of the water features.

Also, I don't see a filter. What type are you considering? Cartridge will have the lowest head loss and you can probably get the most flow rate out of it.

Note too that with a sheer descent, you want filtered water so that at least should be run off the main pump/filter.

One more thing, I think you will want separate runs for each water feature (line C) so you have some flow rate control for each type.

 

[tbrennan]

Hi,

Filter is a Pentair Clean & Clear Plus 420

Heat Pump is for pool only (no spa), and runs almost all the time to keep pool warm.

Waterfall runs 7AM to 10PM daily
Bubblers run 8AM to 8PM daily
Returns are on 10AM to 5PM daily

We want to be able to use everything at the same time.

Right now, everything runs through the heat pump and the filter - perhaps I exclude the waterfall from the heat pump, and take a bypass right after the filter (but before the heat pump) to feed that return? Maybe that will improve flow?

Or, do I plumb in another pump just for the waterfall, fed from the skimmers, with a small cartridge filter because of the sheer?

I feel like I can take the booster pump idea right off the table?

The plumbing is already installed, and concrete done - we only have a 2" line feeding the items at the return line "C" location for the waterfall, but can have them install valves for each item inside the waterfall.

 

[mas985]

Hi,

Filter is a Pentair Clean & Clear Plus 420

Heat Pump is for pool only (no spa), and runs almost all the time to keep pool warm.

Waterfall runs 7AM to 10PM daily
Bubblers run 8AM to 8PM daily
Returns are on 10AM to 5PM daily

We want to be able to use everything at the same time.

Right now, everything runs through the heat pump and the filter - perhaps I exclude the waterfall from the heat pump, and take a bypass right after the filter (but before the heat pump) to feed that return? Maybe that will improve flow?

Yes, you could do that but the HP does have a minimum flow rate that needs to be taken into account.

Or, do I plumb in another pump just for the waterfall, fed from the skimmers, with a small cartridge filter because of the sheer?

That is also, a possibility. They do make small cartridge filters specifically for sheers.

I feel like I can take the booster pump idea right off the table?

If you want to run everything at the same time, I think you will need another pump. The Intelliflo run out is around 145 GPM and you don't want to be even close to that number.

But I would not call the second pump a booster since it is not in series with the main pump. It is a separate pump with a seperate plumbing loop.

How many suction lines do you have and what size are they?

 

[tbrennan]

Yes, you could do that but the HP does have a minimum flow rate that needs to be taken into account.

Looks like our HP minimum flow rate is 30 GPM - if I plum the waterfall feature line before the HP, but after the filter, do you think this will improve flow to the waterfall feature? Is the worry that since it would be before the HP, it would steal most of the flow to feed the feature vs. the heat pump?

But I would not call the second pump a booster since it is not in series with the main pump. It is a separate pump with a seperate plumbing loop.

The waterfall builder suggested an actual booster pump that would sit after our pump - but I do not think that would work at all, it has smaller intake/outlet sizes. I was hoping to either get away with what we already have, or add a single speed pump in its own loop, (save on cost) or add a varible speed pump in its own loop.

If I have to add a smaller cartridge filter for the seperate pump, that kills space on my equipment pad, so I have to take a look at that.

We have (2) suction lines to the equipment pad, (1) 2" with both main drains, and (1) 2" with both skimmers. Not sure which would be best to use for the main pump (filter/heat/bubblers/jets) and for the waterfall pump (waterfall only).

 

[mas985]

Looks like our HP minimum flow rate is 30 GPM - if I plum the waterfall feature line before the HP, but after the filter, do you think this will improve flow to the waterfall feature? Is the worry that since it would be before the HP, it would steal most of the flow to feed the feature vs. the heat pump?

Yes, that is the risk of a bypass. But with an adjustable valve, it should not be an issue to balance it all out.

The waterfall builder suggested an actual booster pump that would sit after our pump - but I do not think that would work at all, it has smaller intake/outlet sizes. I was hoping to either get away with what we already have, or add a single speed pump in its own loop, (save on cost) or add a varible speed pump in its own loop.

You really don't want/need pumps in series. That is only useful for very high pressure applications such as floor cleaners. You need more flow rate, not more pressure so parallel pumps is a better solution but each needs it's own suction line. They should not be shared.

If I have to add a smaller cartridge filter for the seperate pump, that kills space on my equipment pad, so I have to take a look at that.

We have (2) suction lines to the equipment pad, (1) 2" with both main drains, and (1) 2" with both skimmers. Not sure which would be best to use for the main pump (filter/heat/bubblers/jets) and for the waterfall pump (waterfall only).

Each 2" suction line should not be run at more than 63 GPM per line so that limits total flow rate to around 125 GPM which is short your total.

However, you really don't need to run the main returns while the other water features are running. With automation, you should be able to have the returns auto shut off when all the water features are running.

 

[tbrennan]

So do you think the best bet is to plum in the bypass for the waterfall feature line (I can set the flow with one of the intellivalve's), and just turn off the main returns when the other features are running?

I like the idea of only using (1) filter too.

My only concern is the heated water will only be returning on the bubblers, if we do not have the returns on during the day.

Is the new IntelliFlo3 pump more powerful than the IntelliFlo VSF I have now? I could upgrade it, if it helps.

Thanks!

 

[mas985]

So do you think the best bet is to plum in the bypass for the waterfall feature line (I can set the flow with one of the intellivalve's), and just turn off the main returns when the other features are running?

Given your current setup, yes, that is probably the way I would go.

My only concern is the heated water will only be returning on the bubblers, if we do not have the returns on during the day.

If you have only the bubblers running, you could always run the returns as well. Plus you can always reduce flow on the returns so they are on with the other features, they just won't be at 10 GPM each but that isn't big deal.

Is the new IntelliFlo3 pump more powerful than the IntelliFlo VSF I have now? I could upgrade it, if it helps.

It is actually slightly smaller (i.e. lower head curve) than the VSF. The XF has a slightly wider head curve but you can only benefit from that with very low head loss plumbing which you really don't have so I don't think you would benefit from it.

 

[tbrennan]

If you have only the bubblers running, you could always run the returns as well. Plus you can always reduce flow on the returns so they are on with the other features, they just won't be at 10 GPM each but that isn't big deal.

How would I adjust flow in programming for the returns? Can I with the IntelliValve Valve Actuators? I thought you can only program them to open or closed?

 

[mas985]

Any valve can be setup to a partial open or closed. There are two positions available but they can be any two positions.