Upgrade advice (Hayward or Pentair)

[riny]

Hey all, so I've narrowed it down to two options for upgrading most of my equipment this year. This might be the age-old Hayward vs. Pentair debate, but I've got specific equipment that I'm hoping to get feedback on.

First of all, what I already own and am planning on keeping:

• Pool is 10,800 gallons, all plumbing is 1.5"
• Jandy TruClear 11k SWG
• Pentair CC75 cartridge filter
• Pentair IntelliBrite LED
• No spa or other features

Now, OPTION A:

• Hayward Super Pump VS 700 Omni (VSP with bundled automation)
• Hayward H150FDN gas heater

OPTION B:

• Pentair SuperFlo VSP
• Pentair MasterTemp 125 gas heater
• Pentair IntelliConnect automation

Best I can tell, the Pentair equipment is looked on slightly more favorably in this forum, and this combo would be less expensive. The Hayward equipment might be slightly over-spec for my needs. So it seems like the Pentair is a no-brainer. Do you agree, or is there any reason I should be considering the Hayward?

One complication: the IntelliConnect (entry-level automation) won't do solar. I may not be using the solar panels anymore as I really don't have a good place to put them, but if I want to get solar back into the mix, this would mean going up to the IntelliCenter automation which is much more expensive. At that point the Pentair will probably cost more than the Hayward, but not by a lot.

ALSO: will there be any issue with connecting the Jandy SWG? I don't know if Jandy's RS-485 protocol is compatible with either the Hayward or Pentair automation. If not, I guess it will just get connected to a relay output so it only gets power when the pump is on. My builder supplied the SWG and it's brand new / unused so I really don't want to replace it.

Any other advice/recommendations for any of this equipment is welcome!

 

[Jimrahbe]

riny,

I doubt that the IntelliConnect can control your current SWCG, but I don't really know that for a fact.

What I do know for a fact is that the Pentair SuperFlo VS can't be directly controlled by any automation.. It does not have an RS-485 port.

Sorry,

Jim R.

 

[setsailsoon]

I would go with door #B but I'd also consider the following:

• Increase the size of the heater to as large as you can afford. Increasing size doesn't cost much and sure will decrease time to heat.
• Get a separate controller for the solar or...
• Consider Pentair Easy Touch. If you do this I think it will control solar.
• Your existing Jandy swg should be able to run with any automation if you have the wall mounted controller for it.
• What Jim said on the VS pump. There are other brands that will work.

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[riny]

Thank you both. According to the docs on the Pentair website, newly-manufactured SuperFlo pumps (it says since 10/15/2020 or 11/2/2020 in different places) have RS-485 control. This is recent enough that I doubt anyone here has one, but I'm going to assume it works the same way as their other pumps.

I'll look at upsizing the heater too. Do you know how this impacts the net gas consumption? If I go from 125k to 200k BTU for example, does the faster heating overtake the increased usage, or will it be more expensive to operate?

 

[ajw22]

I'll look at upsizing the heater too. Do you know how this impacts the net gas consumption? If I go from 125k to 200k BTU for example, does the faster heating overtake the increased usage, or will it be more expensive to operate?

There is not increased gas usage since the larger heater heats faster and turns off sooner. A larger gas heater will use the same amount of gas to generate the needed BTUs to heat the water to a set temperature.

Buy the biggest gas heater you budget and gas service allows. It is a one time cost and the benefit is quicker heating.

Gas heaters are about 82% efficient. A 125K has heater will give you about 100K BTUs of heat. That will raise your 11K pool about 1 degree an hour.

A 400K BTU heater will raise your water temperature about 3.5 degrees and hour and take 1/3 of the time to a given temperature.

 

[mknauss]

(it says since 10/15/2020 or 11/2/2020 in different places) have RS-485 control.

True - but "Note: IntelliConnect® Control and Monitoring
Systems can NOT externally control this pump via
RS-485."

Also - you will have to be very specific to get the newest pumps as I bet there a lot of older style pumps out there.

 

[riny]

True - but "Note: IntelliConnect® Control and Monitoring
Systems can NOT externally control this pump via
RS-485."

Oh! Dang. I misread this the first time. It says the pump "can be controlled from certain Pentair control systems" but doesn't say which ones. Well I guess that's it for Pentair, as I don't think you can do IntelliFlow with 1.5" pipe.

Nobody is talking about the Hayward option. Are we down on the Hayward equipment these days?

 

[ajw22]

Well I guess that's it for Pentair, as I don't think you can do IntelliFlow with 1.5" pipe.

Just use...

2" x 1 1/2" Schedule 40 PVC Coupling Socket, 429-251

2" x 1 1/2" Schedule 40 PVC Coupling Socket, 429-251

pvcpipesupplies.com

 

[mknauss]

I don't think you can do IntelliFlow with 1.5" pipe.

Certainly you can use an Intelliflo VS. They are variable HP. Just dial down the max rpm.

 

[riny]

Hmm, I remember reading online somewhere that Intelliflo pumps are happier with larger plumbing and won't operate efficiently on 1.5" lines. I've been doing a lot of research today and don't remember where I saw it though. My pump is very close to my pool and below grade (almost on the same level as the pool floor), and I already have a problem with my fixed 1HP pump being bigger than necessary.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Riny,

I don't personally care if you use the 3 HP IntelliFlo or not, but I can tell you that 1.5" plumbing is just not an issue..

I have two rent houses that have pools with 1.5" plumbing.. I have IntelliFlo pumps running in both pools. One for about 10 years and the other for over 8 years.

Obviously more expensive and maybe something you don't want, but having 1.5" plumbing just does not enter into the decision at all..

And thanks for the heads up about the new SuperFlo VS, I had not heard about the RS-485 update..

Edit... It appears to me that the SuperFlo VST and SuperMax VS (Mfg at the end of 2020 have an RS-485 port.. It does not appear to cover the SuperFlo VS..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[mknauss]

I imagine your single speed 1 hp is too big. I run my VS at about 1/6 - 1/3 hp or so. 1400 rpm.

 

[riny]

Thank you both, that's definitely good to know. You're right though that even if it works, the Intelliflo is much larger (and about $500 more) than I need.

@Jimrahbe I saw your edit. What's the difference between the SuperFlo VS and VST? Best I can tell the "trade grade" line is mostly marketing nonsense, but it seems there's a real difference here, unless it's an omission in the manual.

I called Pentair and spoke to a guy who told me that the new SuperFlo with RS-485 will work with Easy Touch, IntelliTouch or IntelliCenter controllers, but not IntelliConnect. He wouldn't say why. I wish someone made an easy comparison chart of all of these different automation packages because it's very confusing.

It sounds like I'll need to spend more on either the pump or the automation to make it work. The more we talk about it, the more the cost of this little project is growing.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Riny,

I have never heard of the SuperFlo VST, so assume it is the one that has the RS-485.. and they are just using the VST to denote the difference.. Just guessing, but most manufacturers don't add new features and not change the model or part number.. Otherwise you end up with new and old stock getting mixed up.

SuperFlo® VST Pool Pump

Pentair SuperFlo VST Variable Speed Pool Pump for inground pools is for pools requiring up to a 1.5 HP pump. This pump is a TradeGrade product.

www.pentair.com

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[riny]

most manufacturers don't add new features and not change the model or part number

Yup and that's exactly what Pentair did. Best I can tell, the Superflo VS is 342001 and the VST is 342002 and both of these model & part numbers have been around for a while and unchanged. In fact someone asked the same question a year ago. But if you look in the manual, it's says there's different functionality for pumps manufactured before 11/2/2020 (or maybe 10/15/2020, depending on which page you're looking at) and those made after. There are separate part explosions for older & newer and many of the part numbers are different, despite the unit model names & numbers being the same.

I can't imagine who at Pentair thought this was a good idea!

 

[SacPoolPro]

Easy choice, go with the Hayward. But first off, are your solar heating panels on a single story rooftop or two story? You'll need a large VS pump if two story. The Omni will be your solar controller also so it will read the temps and control your solar valve. The superflo vs/vst is a weak pump and you won't be happy with the performance especially on a solar panel pool.

Use the VS900 omni unless you have a 2 story then use the VS950omni.
Controlling your existing Jandy SWG via the app is not important since it doesn't read the chlorine or ph levels anyway. Just make the adjustments on your truclear.
I've installed quite a few of the omni's now and they are awesome. The pumps are better, the app is great, plus you can control your pool light from it and add a color LED in the future.
I don't know about the superflo (because it's the only VS pump I will not use), but the intelliflo is a terrible pump to use on a salt pool. The Italian motors have weird metallurgy and will start to deteriorate after 4 or 5 years to the point where they are not repairable. I'm fairly certain the shaft seal on the intelliflo is a standard seal, not a Viton seal. Every other brand uses Viton. Even the cheap Waterway.

I still use a lot of Pentair but mostly on Airbnb houses so I can setup the Quicktouch remote for the guests and the owner uses the app. If its a must using a intelliflo on a salt pool, add a zinc anode to the system from Pool Tools. This might help the pump last longer.

 

[riny]

Hi @SacPoolPro and thank you for the detailed info. I'm curious now though... you seem to be the only one on these forums with anything good to say about Hayward. The Hayward option got no love initially and I didn't get any response to a follow-up question. I've noticed that the forums seem to slant pretty heavily towards Pentair. Any idea what's driving this?

One new question: my heating plans have changed and now I'm looking into an FPH rather than a gas or electric heater. I've been following the other FPH threads on this forum and I think it will work well. But I'm not sure it will work with the Hayward Omni controller. You need a controller that can take an external input, and when it fires, open an actuator valve and increase the pump speed. I've been reading the Omni manual and I can't find any way to program it to do this. I have an open call to Hayward (waiting for a call back) but maybe you know?

Leaving the Omni out of it, you can do this directly on the VS using relay inputs and I could drive the actuator separately. But I want remote control and I'm wondering how the relay inputs play together with the Omni.

 

[Jimrahbe]

but the intelliflo is a terrible pump to use on a salt pool.

Sac,

In my opinion, that is total rubbish.. I have three saltwater pools and they all have IntelliFlo pumps.. One is over 10 years old, one is almost 8 years old, and the other is almost 7 years old.. None of this pumps have leaked a single ounce of water.. They run and look today just like they did when they were new. Well, ok, the paint has faded a little..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[SacPoolPro]

That's just one case and one pool. I do this full time 5-6 days a week. I don't clean pools or offer maintenance. All I do is pool equipment. So I see lots of different situations and I'm telling you the Pentair VS motors will not last with a salt pool. That's not just my opinion. I occasionally do work for another company that does well over a million in revenue every year in pool home warranty work and he hates those Intelliflos. I don't go so far as to say that but in today's market its definitely not my first choice.

Here is one I just did this week. Leaking and the keypad died. Had to replace. Hey look at that it's 5 years old!

 

[mguzzy]

Hey Sac's! Thanks for you input. You have probably seen a lot more dead pumps that I will ever.. but you are dealing with equipment mostly, right? I find a lot of people get a SWG and figure its a set and forget thing... They forget to monitor the rest of their chems. Rampant pH will do the same or bad bonding. The salinity is just to low to do any damage on its own.

Yo @riny .. I think the choice of pumps really depends on how much integration you want. Once you chose a platform, everything else falls in place. Its hard to say there is a bias here for one pump over another.. it really depends on the rest of the system as well.