Two bids for new pool construction

[JJ_Tex]

Sand and DE filters both require backwashing, cartridge you hose them off to clean.

Where do you want the pool equipment to be? Typically its cheaper closer to the gas meter, but I would start by telling them where you would like it rather than the other way around. Consider access, noise, ascetics, and cost in your decision.

 

[ajw22]

Trees over and around the pool and spa will be a big headache.

Check if the gas line at the fireplace is big enough to support the heater BTUs.

 

[CarolineOK]

How do I check that the gas line can support it?

I think I would prefer equipment on the south side. The north is against the master bedroom and the south is against the living room, so noises could be an issue at both sites but I think more bothersome against the bedroom. South side will have a sidewalk leading to the pool, easier garage access, and a nearby shed for any supplies. I also think south is better for any equipment that deals with water during the winter. Any thoughts on the 40’ limit? That long wall is 27’ so it’s not like it will be that much farther.

Yeah, I’m re-thinking keeping the tree, it would also make grading easier. I like it because it’s right outside my kitchen and we like the birds and squirrels. But it’s a giant pain in the rear already (over house, yellow dust from seedlings, sticks, etc) and will be way worse with a difficult to clean spa underneath it.

We kind of started this process backwards I think. With companies we just said “whatever you think is best” assuming (wrongly) there would be a clear right way. And now we’re trying to educate ourselves after the fact so we can figure out all these differences. I can’t tell you how much of a relief it was to find a board of valued opinions. To at the very least have made a definite decision about salt and not UV/ozone/etc, have a plan for the vacuum (the link someone attached was $579 for the robot which sounds super reasonable) and not pay extra for the in-floor cleaner, and a plan to request the Pentair IC60 are already major questions that I feel better about. 3 down only 10,000 more to go! Ha!
Caroline

 

[CarolineOK]

I just went and looked underneath the tree and I think I’m sold that it needs to go if the pool is anywhere close (which it is in quote #1). It didn’t help the tree that I went out barefoot and stepped on an acorn. This is what it looks like underneath...

The cedar on the far right will also go, but the clump on the left and the clump in the back will stay so we’ll still have some trees.

 

[kimkats]

Bye-bye tree!!! That thing NEEDS to go! The stuff falling down is bad enough then add in the roots..........it is out of here!!

Put the equipment on the living room side. With all the things you said it only makes sense. I will reach out to some one who should KNOW about the 40' limit (or not). @Pool Clown @bdavis466

Kim

 

[ajw22]

You need a heating company to look at your gas service, existing connections, and gas requirements of a pool heater and determine it will work. The pool builder should have a contractor to make that assessment. Until a qualified professional says it will work don’t trust salesman assurances.

 

[bdavis466]

You can have your heater as far from the pool as you want. The only issue is the added distance will increase the heating time/decrease the efficiency but not significantly.

The 400K heaters you have spec'd will require a much larger gas line than what was run through your home. The new gas line will need to tie in at the meter and run directly to the heater and the fire pit. It will probably need to be 1-1/2" if the run is less than 100' and 2" if the run is over that. The heater manual should show what size line is required based on distance.

 

[CarolineOK]

I asked quote #1 some clarifying questions:
1. Could we flip the deep and shallow ends? I’m worried that my kids will want to jump off the wall and it would be safer to have the deep end by the wall. Switching the deep and shallow ends is not a problem at all maam.
2. We decided the oak tree needs to go as well as the cedar. As much as I like the tree I don’t like the way my patio looks right now with sticks and acorns and leaves and can imagine what a giant mess that will be in the pool let alone a harder to clean spa. If the tree is gone we have more room to move the spa/pool south. Removing that tree can be figured and I agree, it will allow for more room to move the pool/spa further South.
3. The Pentair IntelliCenter with built in salt was recommended to me, is this an option instead of the Jandy? Yes maam. We offer both Jandy and Pentair products. I will adjust the proposal to reflect the Pentair intellicenter w/ built in salt.
4. It was also recommended to have an additional pump for spa and also additional for water features if leaving pool open year-round, is that included in quote? Or is that unnecessary? There is a pump for the pool and one for the spa included in the original quote. It is not necessary to have a separate pump for the water feature as it is controlled through an actuator valve. It can be added if you would prefer it.
5. Can you specify the width of the decking? On the 3D it shows deck chairs, is that to scale? I like more concrete between the pool and the yard. We would also want to surround the pool with decking even at the wall (so kids jumping off don’t track mud in). The decking in the rendering is showing 10’ in concrete to allow for loungers. We can add some concrete around the back of the wall on the new rendering for you to view.
6. I didn’t see a depth, can you confirm 8 or 9ft? Depth is currently figured at 8’. Can be 9’ if you would prefer.
7. How many skimmers? How many drains in spa? How many jets? (2) skimmers in the pool. There is a strip drain in the spa and in the pool. This allows for three inlets of which two are used. There are (8) jets in the spa.
8. Can you specify the rebar spacing? Is the gunite 12” over the entirety? Is there any additional reinforcement at top of pool? Rebar spacing is on 10” centers. We use shotcrete and it is 12” on all walls and floors. Additional reinforcement at the top of the pool is requested when other companies use 6” & 8” walls.
9. Is the 2” plumbing all pvc? All plumbing is PVC
10. What percentage quartz is the plaster quoted? 50%

Anything else I should ask or think about?
Thanks again!!
Caroline

 

[setsailsoon]

I asked quote #1 some clarifying questions:
1. Could we flip the deep and shallow ends? I’m worried that my kids will want to jump off the wall and it would be safer to have the deep end by the wall. Switching the deep and shallow ends is not a problem at all maam.
2. We decided the oak tree needs to go as well as the cedar. As much as I like the tree I don’t like the way my patio looks right now with sticks and acorns and leaves and can imagine what a giant mess that will be in the pool let alone a harder to clean spa. If the tree is gone we have more room to move the spa/pool south. Removing that tree can be figured and I agree, it will allow for more room to move the pool/spa further South.
3. The Pentair IntelliCenter with built in salt was recommended to me, is this an option instead of the Jandy? Yes maam. We offer both Jandy and Pentair products. I will adjust the proposal to reflect the Pentair intellicenter w/ built in salt.
4. It was also recommended to have an additional pump for spa and also additional for water features if leaving pool open year-round, is that included in quote? Or is that unnecessary? There is a pump for the pool and one for the spa included in the original quote. It is not necessary to have a separate pump for the water feature as it is controlled through an actuator valve. It can be added if you would prefer it.
5. Can you specify the width of the decking? On the 3D it shows deck chairs, is that to scale? I like more concrete between the pool and the yard. We would also want to surround the pool with decking even at the wall (so kids jumping off don’t track mud in). The decking in the rendering is showing 10’ in concrete to allow for loungers. We can add some concrete around the back of the wall on the new rendering for you to view.
6. I didn’t see a depth, can you confirm 8 or 9ft? Depth is currently figured at 8’. Can be 9’ if you would prefer.
7. How many skimmers? How many drains in spa? How many jets? (2) skimmers in the pool. There is a strip drain in the spa and in the pool. This allows for three inlets of which two are used. There are (8) jets in the spa.
8. Can you specify the rebar spacing? Is the gunite 12” over the entirety? Is there any additional reinforcement at top of pool? Rebar spacing is on 10” centers. We use shotcrete and it is 12” on all walls and floors. Additional reinforcement at the top of the pool is requested when other companies use 6” & 8” walls.
9. Is the 2” plumbing all pvc? All plumbing is PVC
10. What percentage quartz is the plaster quoted? 50%

Anything else I should ask or think about?
Thanks again!!
Caroline

Caroline,

Your builder seems very responsive! I'd ask him about the heater install as well. It's very likely he smells a good deal with a quality owner since you're asking all the right questions so he should be able to get his gas plumber sub to respond. Make sure you get all his answers and pricing incorporated in the scope of work and pricing sections of the contract. Also, if you haven't done so already, get a copy of his contract. Make sure the terms are fair and two-way. For example, if it has "time is of the essence for the builder" you can take it out, or make it two-way (for the builder and owner) but don't leave it one way. If you have any questions make sure you understand every word. You don't want the PB to be negotiating with an attorney so if you need help just get advice from one and don't let them do any direct contact with the PB. It's very reasonable for you to fully understand "indemnity" and other legal terms since they obligate you.

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[PCR]

My parents always closed theirs, but none of my friends and neighbors do. When we’ve talked to the consultants they’ve said we don’t need to close it down but would turn off/winterize water features (which is why I thought they needed a separate pump?). I am set on the attached spa, especially if we nix the water features the spa will give us some water movement.

Going back to the bubblers and water features, how much of an issue are they? We had told most consultants we weren’t interested in water features due to cost and needing to winterize but didn’t realize the bubblers could cause issues too. Since we don’t have any other “fancy” things (I really just want big and functional/user friendly) I had kind of liked the idea of them, but not if they’re going to cause me more trouble than they’re worth.

You all are amazing! All the consultants had poo-pooed salt and pushed ozone/U-verse/both, and I’m sold on both the robot cleaner (good brands??) and the Pentair IC60. I so appreciate you!!
Caroline

I'll be the contrarian on the water features to the other answers so far Bear in mind we are just completing our second full season with our pool so that may be a factor, but .... I have a waterfall and I have bubblers on my sunshelf. I use them both all the time! Love the sound of water if we are sitting up on the back deck or in the pool. Like listening to and sticking feet into the bubblers if sitting on the sunshelf, and kids like playing with them. The answer that often comes back on this forum is don't bother with water features for two reasons. One is noise, but with a variable speed pump and valves you can control how strong the water features run and thus how noisy they are. And with everything automated (I have Pentair and automation) I have the pump speed control with a few taps on the screen of my phone. I have three pre programmed settings for the waterfall and, granted, do not use the strongest setting too often, but I can change the pump speed dynamically on any of those settings on my phone and can make the waterfall whatever strength I want it to be (the waterfall is on its own pump/plumbing which does make that feature very easy for me to adjust - it has no knock on effects to any other aspect of the pool). The second reason mentioned is that water features aerate the water and push the PH up. Well ... I just put a little muriatic acid in once or twice a week if the PH has crept up to knock it back down. It's very quick and easy so I don't see that as a deterrent personally - at least not so far! Compared to the near daily dosing of acid while the plaster was curing, putting it in once a week is nothing So undoubtedly there are some folks who get water features and never use them, but not everyone! Best of luck with your design and build!

 

[CarolineOK]

More questions:

I’ve gotten different answers as far as spa equipment. I want to use the spa in the winter and possibly winterize the pool. One PB said just need a 2 hp pump, one friend said I need a separate pump for the spa, one PB said if we do a separate pump we also need a separate heater and filter. Thoughts? We don’t get heavy snows but do occasionally get 1-2 ice storms per winter.

What is the best plaster for a salt pool? One PB said the salt will accumulate on the plaster and we’ll need to drain the pool and acid wash every 2-3 years. Do we need the 100% quartz or should we stick with plain white? (My parents pool is just white, I have no experience with the prettier plasters)

Does travertine coping hold up with salt? I’ve heard it should be sealed yearly?

Thanks! Had our last quote yesterday, asking for contracts and trying to get everything figured out...
Caroline

 

[ajw22]

I’ve gotten different answers as far as spa equipment. I want to use the spa in the winter and possibly winterize the pool. One PB said just need a 2 hp pump, one friend said I need a separate pump for the spa, one PB said if we do a separate pump we also need a separate heater and filter. Thoughts? We don’t get heavy snows but do occasionally get 1-2 ice storms per winter.

If you want to winterize the pool and keep the spa open then they need to be two separate bodies of water with independent systems and equipment. I think it will be simpler and more cost effective to get a standalone spa to use in the winter.

What is the best plaster for a salt pool? One PB said the salt will accumulate on the plaster and we’ll need to drain the pool and acid wash every 2-3 years. Do we need the 100% quartz or should we stick with plain white? (My parents pool is just white, I have no experience with the prettier plasters)

Any plaster will be fine for a "salt pool". All pool water has salt in it. Just most folks without a SWG don't test for it. Liquid chlorine contains salt. In a few years, if no water is drained, a pool sanitized with liquid chlorine can have more salt then a SWG needs.

The harder plaster surfaces are supposed to last longer. Much of it is cosmetic.

Does travertine coping hold up with salt? I’ve heard it should be sealed yearly?

Depends on the quality or the travertine and where the stone comes from. There is low quality travertine that does not wear well with or without salt around it.

 

[CarolineOK]

More questions... we’ve pretty much eliminated 2 proposals and are still at the original two. I’m attaching the updated 3D designs. Here are the things we’re decided on:
SWG
IntelliCenter with built in (plan 2 wants IC40 for 25k, assuming plan 1 will be IC60 bc bigger but will clarify)
Pentair everything (PB 1 pushes Jandy but authorized Pentair service provider)
Travertine coping with concrete decking
Plumb for Polaris but buy robot
After finding a rolled edge spa on the TFP board we’re going to do that (not on plan)
Plan 1 will have an additional swim out in deep end
Cartridge filter 420 or 520
Plan 1 has 2hp vs pump + extra for spa, 2 has 3 hp vs and not an extra but booster for polaris

Things we’re undecided on are plaster, I think we’ve ruled out the darker fancier ones bc of scale build up (none of these builders like salt, all have very strongly discouraged), plan 2 recommended a white base with 30% quartz, plan 1 said plain white or 50% quartz.



PB 1 we found bc my sister went to HS with the sales/marketing guy. Only been around for a few years but designer/construction guy created as his second career as a dream job. They both came out for consult, we got a great feel for their vision and they seemed super informative, balked least at SWG, recommended robot, etc. They provided a few references on our request (haven’t called yet), and some of their online photos are incredible, much nicer than ours. Sales/marketing guy is extremely responsive, but designer/builder has had some personal issues (death in family, hospitalization for illness) that have slown some responses (though still as fast or faster than some of the other PBs). Their updated rendering didn’t increase their price, and their quote includes plumbing, electrical, and tree removal. Don’t have final gallons but pool is 20x40. Decking 10’. When talking they seem like the type that will cover incidentals, in conversations lots of “no additional charge” and could have increased costs after new rendering due to longer wall and more decking. They’re also doing a year of service free.





PB 2 we found via someone who used them and were very happy. We were extremely impressed at first meeting. Been around for decades, numerous offices in our area, but some unhappy online reviews (from what we can tell we hope majority are from other area offices). Slightly smaller 19-24x36, 25k gallons. Quote 5-6k more ($95-96k), does not include water features, and decking more standard 4-6’ depending on location around pool. Also does NOT include electric, plumbing, or tree removal. Definitely will not cover incidentals or upgrades without additional fees, everything is itemized and somewhat nickel and dimed.

So we feel we’re getting a bigger, nicer pool for our $ with PB 1 but plan on calling references bc the one hang up is the lack of long term experience and knowing someone who used them. They have answered all our questions with what I think are the right answers. But of course the other part of it is the drastically different designs, pool elevated with wall at front like Plan 2 or pool lower with wall at the back in plan 1? Both are 18” walls.

Any feedback on the plans or above thoughts? Thanks again, this is such a learning curve (I’m still in the preschool stage I think) but when we’re spending this much $$$$$ you’re all invaluable.

Caroline

 

[CarolineOK]

One difference I found re-reading is PB 1 has rebar on 10” centers and PB 2 on 8”, is that a big deal? Both 3/8”.

 

[Rich D]

No question the first rendering is by far the best IMHO...
- The whole pool will have a better feel to it if you can if the main part of the pool is on the same level as your deck you walk out on to.
- You do not need to go up stairs to get to the main pool entry
- When you look out at the pool you will see the pool surface with a nice wall behind your beautiful TFP water instead of looking at a retaining wall holding up your pool.
-The children .. The children... What child would not want to jump off the wall into the pool..

The only thing I do not like about it is you can not get to your sun shelf without going through the pool and you are looking at the house when sitting on it. I would try to put the sun shelf where the spa is and make it on the same level as the main deck and put the spa where the sun shelf is now so you walk by the sun shelf and then step up to the spa and "Jumping wall".

 

[kimkats]

All that Rich said!

 

[CarolineOK]

Thanks! The thinking on the spa location is we plan to put a tv on the wall of the house so the spa is in the best location to see the tv. One of the questions we had for them last week was how to get in sun ledge due to wall, waiting to hear on that from designer who was in the hospital. On original design the wall stopped next to ledge but I asked him to continue it so kids could jump into deep end. I had asked about flipping shallow and deep and he didn’t, but my husband likes it as is so you walk off the deck into shallow. I wondered about moving the ledge to the deep end instead of the additional swim out they’re adding but that might take up more space from the deep end and then we still have the wall over the shallow end where I don’t want kids jumping. Maybe they can put some coping between ledge and wall as an additional step for the 18”? One slight positive I thought about with the wall behind the sun ledge is maybe it will defer our dog just a little? He’s quite the jumper so maybe not but... I’ll see what his answer is when he responds. We’re also waiting for a 2d with dimensions when he’s available.

Again, thanks so so much! We were about 90% sure on 1 but feel better knowing you guys think so too and will hopefully have our confirmation when I talk to the references.

Caroline

 

[CarolineOK]

I always forget additional questions and end up posting again ?‍.

So no issues with additional spacing of rebar 10” vs 8”? What is typical?

Also on plaster, because 100% quartz adds 4K to plan 1, we want whatever plaster is going to hold up the best, not what is going to look the most amazing. I’m used to my parents pool that is basic white with no quartz, pebbling, or sparkle and it’s soft and just fine. The PB here hate salt, it’s been so heavily discouraged from all but PB 1, and said avoid any plaster with any sparkle/design because of scale accumulation. PB 2 suggested white with 30% quartz light sky blue water because would add a bit of quartz for durability without a tight pattern that would show scale. PB 1 talked to my husband and said he might just do white if that’s what we’re used to but the quote is for a 50% quartz. Obviously I see tons of pool pics on this board and you guys are majority SWG fans so is there a big pull one away or another DURABILITY wise? Does a small amount of quartz make a difference? Would a 50% quartz be even better but still avoid showing scale? I don’t think the 100% quartz is worth the investment for aesthetics only for us if it’s going to show scale and especially not if it’s going to be rough on the kids’ feet. And honestly we’re maxed on budget (we’re going to use the difference between PB 1 and PB 2 to put in a well), so assuming the answer isn’t 100% quartz is the best thing ever and it’s not worth putting in a pool without it, which of the other 3 is going to be the best option for durability and less showing of scale?

We plan to start the build after the first of the year, is that a good time? Here they typically say 6-8 weeks until swimmable. Even though I’m not ready to shell out the money I’m getting excited ?

Thanks, thanks, thanks again!
Caroline

Caroline

 

[bmoreswim]

I have thoughts on several aspects. BTW - I like your approach. The only thing I might have done differently is to tell the what I wanted design wise so you would then receive quotes that were more similar. However, if you didn't know what you wanted, this is best. And you can also just tell your preferred PB to build whatever hybrid style you want. And in that vein, I'm going to throw out a few alternative design ideas.

1) On design 1, move the wall back behind the decking along the whole back of the pool. Sitting in front of a retaining wall creates a sense of intimacy, even in a big pool space. Your back deck area is a platform, which may or may not be appealing to you.
2) Also on design 1, move only half (or 2/3) of the wall to behind the deck. Specifically the section behind the spa and shelf, then a few feet past the shelf, have a three steps across the deck to get you up to the higher level. So your wall essentially continues across the decking and ends up along the pool for the back section. That resolves the access issue to the shelf, creates a nice intimate space on the shelf and decking just behind it, and also gives you a wall by the pool (though for a shorter section), which is kind of cool looking too. Then you'll have a few steps back down from the elevated area as you head farther around the pool. I also am not always a fan of having a long stretch of raised bond beam (wall right at the pool wall) because it creates a large section of the pool that is harder for swimmers to catch a break by grabbing onto the coping.

Regarding plaster. Quartz finishes are just as smooth as plain plaster even if 100% quartz. The quartz pieces are very fine. Here is a link to our build thread which discusses our plaster mix. It is 8% quartz. You can see the details in the post. It is definitely mottled in appearance, so not a super consistent color, but we love it. All of their talk about scaling is complete hogwash. You will have zero scaling if you properly maintain your pool chemistry. Alternately, I could see them referring to mottling when using such a mix. But scaling is a different issue, unrelated and it won't happen if you take ownership of your own pool.

Also, ignore 100% what any PB says about SWCG's. Many of them just don't get it. Properly maintained pools will have zero issues related to SWCG's. But will have all the benefits of automatically created/introduced chlorine. I think the phobia from SWCG's come from pool owners who think that having a SWCG means they don't have to do anything to their pool and consequently the chemistry is not maintained properly, which can lead to all sorts of bad things over time.

Also, one last design point. Having a wall on the house side of the pool will reduce your ability to see into the pool for safety purposes when viewing from that side or near the house.

Also, word to the wise, plan on 12 weeks and be thrilled if it comes in less. Two issues we see all the time are communication issues with the PB and longer than stated timeframes. Set your expectations lower in the timeframe regard and maybe get a surprise.

 

[CarolineOK]

Thanks for the thoughts! I’m not seeing the link to your build. I like your thought #2, that may be something to suggest if he doesn’t have a good way of accessing ledge. The wall behind the pool between the ledge and the deep end is where I envision lots of jumping in (maybe from a run) and less sitting. I plan to put our fire pit in that bump out. We also have a very deep yard (house is on 0.7 acres) with a very tall fence so I’m less worried about being elevated, though I totally see where you’re coming from and that isn’t something I’ve thought of.

Good to know about the plaster! I think we’ll not do the 100% and see what percentage he ends up recommending just knowing that we don’t need to spend more.

The problem is we had an idea what we wanted, but not specifics, then we had 5 guys come give us designs and quotes, and they all used different equipment, and none recommended salt (which was something we wanted), and all had different visions (or no vision, I completely reworked one guys plan at our kitchen table weeks ago and still haven’t heard how my changes affected the price), and one guy flat out didn’t make a design bc we weren’t willing to spend >150k. So it starts to make you question what you thought you wanted and what you thought you knew, and everyone speaks very convincingly and you’re spending this much money and there’s very few changes you can make down the line if you’re not happy so... you can see where we were when we found TFP. I feel so so so much better now that I think we have a PB we want to use, a list of what we want, a pretty firm cost (though over initial budget), and a general plan.

Thanks, keep the thoughts coming, it all makes me think of things I haven’t known I need to consider!
Caroline