Trouble w/ pH and CYA level recommendation

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whatdidigetmyselfinto

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2019
91
Ottawa, ON
Hi there,

I got a 2006C testing kit from a friend but also getting the water testing by our local shop (for those who know Ottawa, it is Purewater).
I have a salt water pool, with a Hayward Aquarite SWCG (T15 cell). it reads the salt level at 3000.

1. Running at around 40% (SWG setting), we seem to be losing FC, it was around 6 (we were told shock w/ one scoop of HTH extra) and now it is 3.5 after about a week. Raised it to 60%.
2. Related ^, our CYA reading is very low (out of chart for 2006C, < 30ppm, Purewater reading was 19ppm few days ago) and they didn't make any recommendations there to increase it (though it is clearly out of range). What should the target be? Dont fully understand how CYA works but isn't this why our FC levels are dropping? that we don't have enough CYA?

For alkalinity, Purewater recommends 125-150ppm, ours was 115 and we added their Alka Plus product. This target range is very different from the target in Poolmath which is 60-80. Not sure what the affect of it being high/low would be.

Also interesting is that with a pH of 7.8, we put 1.5kg of their pH Down product and our pH didn't budge. still 7.8

They found Borate too low (11 vs 30-70ppm), we added like 8kg of something they call "Soft Touch".
They found phosphate too high (1500 vs 0-300ppb), and we put PhosFree (Natural Chemistry)

AND : the pool is NOT clear. Hasn't been clear for a long time. Still can't get a clear / nice water in the pool.


oh btw : There is now black debris at the bottom of the pool. Do vacuuming clean different things than a TigerShark? is leaving those black stuff behind for a while really bad?)

I know I asked to many things :(
 
How many gallons is your pool? How long do you run your PUMP and SWG daily?

Recommended CYA for a SWG pool is around 70. With a CYA of under 30 your SWG will have a hard time generating enough FC to keep up with the CL lost to UV rays during the day.

With a TA of 120+ it will be hard to lower your pH. The higher your TA is the quicker your pH will rise.

The pool store has you on a cycle of spending money dumping chemicals in. You don't need Alak Plus. you don't need Phosfree, you don't need Soft Touch, and you can adjust your pH down using muriatic acid.

You need to decide if you want to get off the pool store mill and follow TFP Care.

I suggest you read ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry and post a complete set of test results from your K-2006C.
 
A Pile..

You have two choices...

1. Continue to go to your pool store and buy and add their recommended chemicals.. Rinse and repeat over and over again...

Or,

2. Come over from the dark side and start using the TFP pool care process.. If you do you will never have to add "Pool Store Magic" to your pool again!!

I have three saltwater pools and have never added a single bag of pool store shock in the past 8 years.. No Phos-free, no magic of any kind...

You have a SWCG.. You should not need anything but salt and a little Muriatic Acid (MA) and you should be good to go...

You are 100% correct about the CYA protecting the FC from burning off. We recommend a CYA of 60 to 80 for a saltwater pool. You then need to keep your FC per this simple chart (see the saltwater section) FC/CYA Levels

We call what is happening to you.. Being Pool Stored... They do not care about you and your pool they care about selling you something. We sell nothing...

ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
Well, first stop letting the pool store test your water. Because then they are going to give you suggestions and they will likely conflict with the help you will get here ... a receipt for confusion.

With the very low CYA, it is not surprising that the SWG can't overcome the FC losses to the sun.
Your TA was too high before you raised it more. That is just going to lead to your pH going up faster. You can generally completely ignore the TA and just keep the pH in range.
Is there a reason you are adding borates? That is also going to make lowering your TA more difficult which will keep your pH going up and up.
We do not care about phosphates. They can be ignored if you just keep the proper levels of FC for your CYA (FC/CYA Levels)

I am not surprised at all that the water is not clear given all the stuff you have just added to it. The Phosfree alone will cloud it up.

You would suggest you cut ties with the pool store and give your wallet a rest.
Then post a full set of test results from your test kit.
Likely you need to follow the SLAM Process to clear up your pool ... although you might have to complete whatever requirements there are for the Phosfree before starting that.
 
Thanks everybody.

The reason I am here, asking all these questions is because I want to understand how the TFP way works and get off the pool store wagon. I was very disappointed what they said, what affect the products they gave had (or not in most cases), etc. Especially hearing that a high TA would prevent my pH coming down and it was high to begin with. I simply need to figure where I can get muriadic acid and various other recommended products when I need to use them. Other than that I am all on board w/ TFP.

ajw22 : it is 18x36 pool. About 95000 litres. about 25000 gallons.
Pump runs about 12 hours, generally around 2000 rpm.

I was just reading about overnight loss test, I plan on doing that now to see if I need to SLAM (hopefully not) because in 2 weeks we will be away on vacation and by the time we get back I feel our troubles will be back.

So the common thing was that I need to increase CYA to 70. How do I do that?
 
Welcome to the TFP pool! :swim:

To raise CYA you can just add granular CYA tothe pool using the "sock method". In the States, we can get CYA at Home Depot or Lowes. You can check those if close by or Canadian Tire, I hear you can get anything at that place.

We find that many times pool store employees primary goal is to sell stuff, not necessarily get your pool in perfect condition. As to whether that is because of improper training, lack of knowledge or just to sell stuff I will leave up to you. While you would think that a "professional" would be the best, unfortunately in most cases it is quite the opposite. Between employees who blindly trust the word of chemical sales representatives and high school kids working in the pool store for the summer you end up with poor results from their advice and testing.

To know what is going on with your pool we need accurate test results we can trust, and those don't come from a pool store. We base our pool care system on your personal accurate testing and only adding what the pool needs, when it needs it. To do that you need your own accurate test kit. Order a TF100 test kit.

The only other real option for a test kit is a Taylor K-2006-C. Be careful comparing prices because the K-2006 comes in sizes, designated by a letter. The basic K-2006 has .75oz bottles. You need to get the K-2006-C to get the larger bottles that you want. Even then it is a little short on the reagent & powder for the FAS/DPD test.

While entirely optional, I also have the SpeedStir and Sample Sizer. They speed testing and accuracy.

Now, the problem you have - One company has the rights to all Taylor Technologies testing chemical locked up. Unless you can get below the border to buy a kit you will be paying a pretty penny for it.

How much Pool School have you read? Start with these:

www.troublefreepool.com

ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry

There are several items things every pool owner should know about swimming pool water. We share details on the basics of Pool Water Chemistry.
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

www.troublefreepool.com

Recommended Pool Chemicals

Which should I buy? TFP's recommended pool chemicals are cheap, easy, and won't unbalance your pool water.
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com






www.troublefreepool.com

How to Chlorinate Your Pool

Before chlorinating your pool, you should know these simple tips. Learn the best way to add chlorine to your pool.
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com


So, welcome to TFP!!
 
You increase your CYA to 70 by adding stabilizer. Use PoolMath to calculate the amount.

PoolMath says to generate 3 ppm of CL your T-15 cell running 12 hours a day needs to run at 90%. So you need to run your pump longer or your cell % higher to generate the needed FC. A typical pool needs 2-4 ppm a day.

Between too low CYA and too little CL generation by your SWG it is not surprising your FC is dropping.
 
Just don't raise the CYA all the way to 70ppm until you complete the SLAM process. If your water is cloudy now, then that is failing one of the criteria of the SLAM.

Also, I think you misunderstood my pH, TA, borate comments, or more likely, I was not clear ;)
TA and borates are pH buffers, meaning they kind of slow down the ability to change the pH and will require more acid to get the pH to change.
Additionally, the higher the TA, the more it tries to pull the pH up so it will rise faster.
Usually we want you to get the TA and pH fairly balanced (TA < 70ppm) before borates are added, because once they are added it takes more acid to change the pH in order to drive the TA down.
Still not sure I am stating that clearly :D
 

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so having a low CYA will help :)
at least for the SLAM part...

I understand a bit the 'buffer' concept.

so for the short term, if 7.8 pH is acceptable, I will not worry about that and focus on SLAM, considering water is still cloudy.
Wondering those, assuming i can do that and get to the maintenance stage, will the SWG and regularly running pool keep things in check for 3+ weeks we will be away.
 
Well, first step of the SLAM is supposed to be lowering the pH to 7.2-7.4 ... did you say you can't find muriatic acid?

We do not recommend the use of solid pH down which adds sulfates (?) to the pool, this is especially not a good idea when you have a SWG.
 
Home Depot and Canadian Tire should have muriatic acid. It’s liquid and comes in a jug. They may even sell pool stabilizer and liquid chlorine at a stronger strength than bleach.

First thing is you need to test your own water with the Taylor test kit you borrowed from your friend. Report back your test results here before adding anything to your pool. Once you have posted the results we can better guide you. Once you get the hang of this method you will love how easy it is to maintain your pool.

FC
CC
PH
TA
CH
CYA
 
I found Muriatic Acid at good price at BMR and RONA. Do you have this in your area? They also sell pool stabilizer. I also found pool stabilizer at Home Depot.
For liquid chlorine, Canadian Tire sells 5L 10.3% for 5.19$. It is the best I found and they seems to have a good stock rotation so you have fresh stuff.
 
1. You can safely swim in a pool as long as the FC is above the minimum and at or below SLAM level based on your CYA. You must also be able to see the bottom of the pool in the deep end of the pool.
2. As long as someone can come by and clean out the skimmer basket and you have properly dialed in your FC generation, you should have no issues. When we leave for 2 or 3 weeks in the summer I put a couple trichlor pucks in a floater as well as my SWCG running to provide me some acid addition as our fill water is alkaline. And we have a lot of evaporation.
 
1. Pool is safe to swim if FC is below shock level and you can see bottom of deep end of pool.

2. Depends if you have SWG output and runtime for adequate CL for your CYA. See FC/CYA Levels
 
CarolineM said:
When gone for 3 weeks you should turn you SWG up to 100% and have the pump longer so you are generating enough chlorine.
Click to expand...

Turning up SWG to 100% may be way overkill for folks who have oversized SWG. Use PoolMath to calculate proper SWG runtime.
 

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