Transitioning to TFP Method Mid-Treatment?

[JDFester]

Good Morning!

I am brand new here, and actually just discovered this site last night while researching what to do about Mustard algae, just after adding the pool store's recommended copper based algae killer and granular shock (day one of their recommended 3-4 days). I want to transition to the TFP SLAM method, but wonder if I need to continue/complete the recommended treatment, or modify the SLAM due to the current state of the pool?

A little background: I'll try to be concise but the short version is I'm TICKED at the local big-name pool store as they have incorrectly guessed at my issue since last fall, and have caused me to throw over $1000 in chemicals in the pool with no real help. Last fall when I bought the house, the pool was green. I had their pool-school come out and teach me how to clean/operate it. About a month later, I started seeing "sand" accumulating on the floor of the pool in front of the pump outlets. They said the sand was worn out and needed to be replaced, so I did. Problem is, still getting the sand, just as much as before, except now it would show up a few other places (steps, molded in seats, etc). Oh well, closing for winter, deal with it in the spring. For winter, I just used a solar cover, reduced pump time, and kept chlorine tabs in floater, and all was well; doesn't get cold long enough to care with pump running, and no trees to fill the pool with debris. When I opened the pool (removed cover), no swamp, just some "sand" on the floor. However, in a couple of days, water got light blue-green and cloudy to where you could only see about 3 feet deep or so. Took in water for testing, did multiple treatments to rise PH for a particular algae killer, triple shock, etc. Clears up for a day. Then clouds back up. Repeat with an extra day of triple shocks. Same result. They say from color of water in photo, its not algae, need clarifier. Dump in lots of that over several days. No visible change. Chlorine and FC keep dropping rapidly. On and on through about $1200 of treatments. OK, DONE with that store.

Tried a small local pool store yesterday and walked the guy though the history, and as soon as I mentioned the "sand", he asked if I had a picture. Showed him cell phone shot and he said he suspected mustard algae. Sent me home with copper based liquid and lots of shock, and a new Taylor K2006 test kit. Anyway, doing more research last night I am confident that it is indeed the mustard algae, as all of the symptoms match, photos match, etc. Part of that research landed me here, and needless to say I am very ready and willing to come over to the TFP method. Reading though all of the steps, methods, reasons, etc., but wondering if the addition of the copper or the presence of the mustard algae create any special mods.

Did a pH test and CYA test yesterday before adding the stuff: pH was 7.4, and CYA was at 90. Did not do the other tests yet, and looking for advise on how valid they would be with current slosh of stuff in there anyway.

Also, vacuumed the entire pool yesterday evening (to waste), 2 min backwash and 1 min rinse, and then added back about 2500 gal of water to replace what I had dumped (after the tests above...). Added the copper and then in 3 hours 3 lb of granular Calcium HYperchlorite (73%) shock. This morning before I left for work, water is light blue/cloudy (Can see bottom at about 6' depth), and I see more "sand", especially under the tools/handles that I threw in the pool when I read somewhere that it was important to do that to kill any algae that was residual on them.

So, where do I go from here? Going to stop on the way home for liquid bleach; how much should i buy? I assume my next step is to vacuum the pool again, refill, and then test water? Should I just use the PoolMath to determine the amount of chlorine to add to get to mustard algae shock level and go for it? Any other pointers or tips for a new convert in case I haven't found them in the forums before I get home/get started?

Any/all help and advice is GREATLY appreciated. SO glad to have stumbled across this site!

Jon

 

[tim5055]

Welcome to TFP!

First, your description of "sand" does not match our thoughts of mustard algae. Mustard is often given as the cause of constant algae by pool stores when their potions no longer work because of high CYA.

Mustard algae is usually seen on the walls and some of the floor of a pool, most commonly on the shaded side of the pool.

I see you are under drought conditions, but you reLly need to replace at least 50%, but a little more would be better to get yiur CYA down to about 40. This will also remove half of the copper that the pool store had you add. Copper is good at killing algae, but easily leads to staining of the pool and turning blond hair green.

The other thing to think about when using copper to kill algae is that copper does not kill pathogens, the stuff that makes you sick. You can keep a high copper level in a pool that keeps the algae away, but with insufficient chlorine other stuff in the water can exist that makes you sick. You need a residual sanitizer in the pool all the time and chlorine is that sanitizer.

Our methods of algae removal is called a SLAM Process, which is an ongoing process of keeping the chlorine at shock level for as long as it takes to eradicate the algae. If you look at the [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA] chart, you will see the shock level for CYA 90 is a big number and hard to attain and maintain.

You need to stop using any solid forms of chlorine now. Most of them just add to the high CYA.

Now, to the "sand" you see on the bottom of your pool. Have you ever recovered any of it to see what it is like. Can you crush it against a sheet of paper and see a color transfer or does it remain solid?

My guess based on what little we know at this point is that you have 2 issue So:

Your sand filter is allowing sand to enter the pool

Your algae problems are nothing more than high CYA combined with low FC which allows algae to flourish.

 

[JDFester]

I should probably clarify the "sand" description. It is not actually sand, or crystaline. It was growing/collecting in pods that looked roughly like spots of sprinkled sand, which I am told is common when the water is cooler, as it was in the fall when it first showed up, and when I opened in March. Since the water warmed, it has taken on the yellow coloring and mainfested as almost a powdery-looking film on the sides with a bit less on the floor concentrated on the side which is shaded by the house until later afternoon. It leaves a yellowish brown color when crushed against paper, and has a consistency similar to wet flour; its not gritty like sand.

I do understand the need for chlorine, and definitely have been using and maintaining that, though with the solid forms cranking up the CYA which was likely already fairly high last year when we bought the house. I will be draining out more and refilling more this afternoon; should I shoot for 50% more being dumped, or does the 20% dumped yesterday help and let me get away with any less? (Hate to pay sewer rates on 10K gallons of water that won't be going in the sewer ... Will be getting a second meter installed for outdoor use when I can afford it...)

I am including a photo of the pool before any of yesterdays activity, though there was a lot more yellow than shows up in the photo; note that the ugly splotchy color on the bottom is where the former owners did some sort of pathetic paint job; having it resealed and epoxied is also on the list, but will have to wait at least another season.

Thank you again!

View attachment 63228

 

[JDFester]

Also, the "sand" immediately makes the algae "puff cloud" when disturbed; it does not push around and behave like actual sand. It was just how it appeared as when it first began showing up, which I am told is not a common form, but certain strains have shown that behavior in this area. Have also heard that there is a good chance this may have been introduced to the pool by someone who had not washed their bathing suit since swimming in one of the area lakes; is that reasonable? If so, is there a good way to prevent that in the future? In particular with visitors where I can't control their laundry?

Thanks again!

 

[Teald024]

Have also heard that there is a good chance this may have been introduced to the pool by someone who had not washed their bathing suit since swimming in one of the area lakes; is that reasonable? If so, is there a good way to prevent that in the future? In particular with visitors where I can't control their laundry?

Hello and Welcome to TFP... YOU will be glad you found your way here.

So, where do I go from here?
Option 1 is drain & refill to get CYA down to 40-50ppm, so about 50% water change. SLAM level FC is 16-20 (24-29) ppm
Option 2 is no drain and leave CYA at 90ppm. SLAM level FC is 35 (49)ppm.
These levels are for algae (mustard algae).
see this CYA / FC Chart
only use bleach to get chlorine in the pool

In the long run, you are not going to want your CYA at 90. You could let it naturally decline by water removal from backwashing and draining after rain. But that's not a quick process. There are some ways to make it quicker, but by far the easiest is to drain & refill now. See if your town has a one time pool fill credit.


For liquid bleach; how much should i buy?
How much can you fit in your car? Just to get to 18ppm is 7 gallons of 8.25% bleach, to get to 35ppm is 14 gallons, to 49ppm is 20 gallons. Then you have to keep it there, so count on 2-4 gallons a day at the start depending on how much is used. It will taper off as the algae disappears. You can always go get more as you get a feel for what it is using.


I assume my next step is to vacuum the pool again, refill, and then test water?
See CYA comment above. Anything that you can vac to waste will help so the chlorine doesn't have to deal with it. (and replace some of that water)
You can do a set of test now to get a baseline. Confirm / set your pH. then add chlorine. Follow the SLAM article. Then going forward, you only need to test with the DPD test for chlorine. You don't need to worry about other tests after you start the SLAM.

Edit: After the normal SLAM is complete then you follow, the Mustard protocol - Pool School - Mustard Algae
(thanks for the reminder Tim)


Should I just use the PoolMath to determine...
Yup... PoolMath will do the number crunching for you.

Then go for it....

Any other pointers or tips
no more powdered chlorine products. no more products with copper in them. Algaecide is useless right now. Never let FC drop below your SLAM value. Brush often. Backwash when filter pressure goes up 25% above normal clean reading. Be patient. You may see a lot of change at first, but the tail end may take some time. Take a picture a day, like the one above, to see the changes. Don't run out of the reagents (R870 / R871).



Algae & how it got there... maybe, maybe not from a lake swimmer. How about a bird, or wind.... don't put too much mental effort in this.

The easiest preventive is chlorine at appropriate levels. There are much worse things that could be growing in your pool besides algae...

 

[tim5055]

Also, the "sand" immediately makes the algae "puff cloud" when disturbed; it does not push around and behave like actual sand. It was just how it appeared as when it first began showing up, which I am told is not a common form, but certain strains have shown that behavior in this area. Have also heard that there is a good chance this may have been introduced to the pool by someone who had not washed their bathing suit since swimming in one of the area lakes; is that reasonable? If so, is there a good way to prevent that in the future? In particular with visitors where I can't control their laundry?

Thanks again!

As Dave said, I wouldn't give too much thought to where it comes from, the solution for mustard is the same as any other algae, proper levels of chlorine in proper ratio to the CYA. This is the point pool stores miss. They feel keep FC 3 - 5 and everything will be OK.

After the normal SLAM Process is complete then you follow,the Mustard protocol - Pool School - Mustard Algae

 

[JDFester]

Ok, thank you for the answers! I just got home withe the first 12 gallons of Wal-Mart bleach, and took todays photos. Will vacuum to waste the visible algae, refill if needed, and then do baseline tests and post the results here.View attachment 63267View attachment 63268

 

[JDFester]

Ok, vacuumed the visible algae to waste (much less today, so it went fast)

Did full set of water tests, wondering if these can be real?

Free Chlorine: 110ppm
Combined Chorine: 12ppm
pH: 7.3-7.4
Total Alkalinity: 100ppm
Calcium Hardness: 150ppm
CYA: 63-65ppm (using the photo thread on here as a guide as to when the dot has sufficiently disappeared, which was pretty close to what I did yesterday...)

I would guess I drained and replaced about 20% of the pool water yesterday; according to pool math, the CYA shift seems like it was closer to 30%

So, can the free chlorine level really be that high? Does the copper stuff added manifest as FC in the test somehow? Used a test strip as a sanity check, and it indicated total chlorine low and free chlorine extremely high, though according to the shart with them, the total chlorine should have also shown very high, as the test indicated 12ppm, but the range for the strips is just 1-10ppm, so I know they are not an accurate read. Just wondering since everything on here indicates how hard it would be to raise the free chlorine as high as I need to, and its currently double that, with only 3lb of shock and the copper stuff last night? Just wanting to be sure.

Also, there were, and some remain, suds on the surface, and a sticky green film/residue on the pool walls at the surface and on anything that was floating in the pool, at the waterline. I assume that is from the copper junk?

Well, off to brush the pool, and looking forward to the responses!

Jon

 

[tim5055]

Did full set of water tests, wondering if these can be real?

Free Chlorine: 110ppm
Combined Chorine: 12ppm
So, can the free chlorine level really be that high? Does the copper stuff added manifest as FC in the test somehow? Used a test strip as a sanity check, and it indicated total chlorine low and free chlorine extremely high, though according to the shart with them, the total chlorine should have also shown very high, as the test indicated 12ppm, but the range for the strips is just 1-10ppm, so I know they are not an accurate read.

Jon,

No, it can't be that high. The limit of the test is 50.

So, what size water sample did you use 10mL or 25mL?

From the K-2006 Insturctions:

1. Rinse and fill large comparator tube to desired mark with water to be tested.
NOTE: For 1 drop = 0.2 ppm, use 25 mL sample. For 1 drop = 0.5 ppm, use 10 mL sample.

I'm guessing you used a 25mL sample and used 55 drops = FC 11

 

[JDFester]

I'm guessing you used a 25mL sample and used 55 drops = FC 11

Well, actually, I started with a 25mL sample and gave up after 30 drops or so; dumped it, rinsed and then went with 10mL, 22 drops. Math is the same; I totally missed the decimal when reading the instructions. This makes more sense. KNEW it was too good to be true; thank you for catching my error!

So at my current CYA level, it looks like I would need to raise to about FC=25, which PoolMath says should take just over 3 bottles of LC; did I do that math right? (I would also be adding back about 500-800 gallons to replace what I pumped out tonight, which should lower CYA a little bit more...

Thank you!

Jon

 

[Teald024]

I'm showing:
25,000 gallons
8.25%, 128oz jug (You didn't say)
11 --> 25ppm
518oz (4gallons)

 

[tim5055]

8.25%, 128oz jug (You didn't say)

8.25% is almost always 121 oz bottles

 

[JDFester]

Yes, 121 oz bottles of 8.25%. Pool is 18000 gallons: going from 11 - 26 needs 400 oz, or 3.3 bottles.

Did I do that right?

 

[Teald024]

Yeah, looks good.

Sorry about the pool size, I thought you had 25k for some reason...

 

[JDFester]

Ok, things are progressing very nicely, I think! Yesterday was the first time EVER since we bought the house that there was nothing on the bottom of the pool! Further confirmation that the brownish stuff accumulating on the bottom in front of the outlet jets was not sand, but the algae!

I have been maintianing the SLAM level since Friday, and wanted to run the FC loss numbers I am seeing by the group here to make sure they seem reasonable, and then have a couple of additional questions.

During daylight hours yesterday, FC dropped from high of 31 down to 26 in about 8 hours of direct sunlight; I am sure some was sun and some was attacking the algae. Added more Chlorine and was out for the evening. Checked FC when I returned (11pm) and it was 31. Checked again this morning and it was down to 28.5, so still attacking some algae...

First question: I have a blue "bubble wrap" type solar blanket, which has been on the pool all winter, so definitely will need to be disinfected and/or replaced due to the algae. My question is should I pull it back over the pool now to both cut the chlorine loss to the sun and give it lots of time to soak in the SLAM level chlorine, or would that be detrimental to the process? Will cleaning it in this way be successful, or should I just cut my loss with it and replace when the temperatures drop in the fall? (Just bought it last fall, so it is in good shape other than the algae...)

Second question: Is there a reason to do the traditional SLAM first, and then the Mustard level SLAM once that is done, rather than doing the whole SLAM at the higher Chlorine level? (I am sure there is, I'm just curious, and want to make sure this stuff is DEAD!!!)

Third question: How important is the expiration date on the test kit reagents? I ask because a local store has some on the shelf that are expired, and I wondered if they would be worth buying at a discount, or if they really do expire and lose effectiveness?

Fourth question: Where does one buy DE? As the water is getting clearer, I want to add some to the sand filter...

Fifth question: As I am brand new at this, what can I expect the effect of rain to be? It is predicted for the next 7 days... which will help with keeping the family out while the levels of chlorine abate when the SLAM is done, I hope! Speaking of, how low do the levels need to drop before swimming? (Still a while down the road, I know...)

Thank you for all of the help!!!

 

[tim5055]

First question: I have a blue "bubble wrap" type solar blanket, which has been on the pool all winter, so definitely will need to be disinfected and/or replaced due to the algae. My question is should I pull it back over the pool now to both cut the chlorine loss to the sun and give it lots of time to soak in the SLAM level chlorine, or would that be detrimental to the process? Will cleaning it in this way be successful, or should I just cut my loss with it and replace when the temperatures drop in the fall? (Just bought it last fall, so it is in good shape other than the algae...)

Don't put it on, you wan teh CC to be able to off gas from the pool. After you pass the SLAM Process while the FC is high you can submerge it in the pool to disinfect it.

Second question: Is there a reason to do the traditional SLAM first, and then the Mustard level SLAM once that is done, rather than doing the whole SLAM at the higher Chlorine level? (I am sure there is, I'm just curious, and want to make sure this stuff is DEAD!!!)

Possible damage/bleaching to pool/equipment. Stick with the system

Third question: How important is the expiration date on the test kit reagents? I ask because a local store has some on the shelf that are expired, and I wondered if they would be worth buying at a discount, or if they really do expire and lose effectiveness?

Don't buy them. Get your reagents at TFTestkits.net TFTestkits was started by the owner of this forum to supply test kits designed for the residential pool owner. When donations come up short to keep the lights on around here TFTeskits pays the bills for us.....

Fourth question: Where does one buy DE? As the water is getting clearer, I want to add some to the sand filter...

I use the Cellulose Fiber DE replacement I got from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Pro-Guard-23793BPG-Cellulose-Replaces/dp/B00D3J3G4W

Fifth question: As I am brand new at this, what can I expect the effect of rain to be? It is predicted for the next 7 days... which will help with keeping the family out while the levels of chlorine abate when the SLAM is done, I hope! Speaking of, how low do the levels need to drop before swimming? (Still a while down the road, I know...)

Minimal at best unless its a total monsoon. Rain adds so little water to the huge body of water. You may see a shift in pH because of the aeration form the beating rain.

 

[JDFester]

Well, at this point my pool has never looked better since we bought the house last September! I think we must be getting close; 2 days ago the OCLT result was 1.0. I fell asleep after adding Chlorine last night to bring the levels back up from the day loss, before I did another test.

Since I am gone all day, I have been overshooting the chlorine in the morning to make sure the drop during the day does not take it below the Target FC of 25. (~32 in the pre-dawn morning dropping to ~26 in the late afternoon/evening). Is this a correct approach since no one is at home to add during the day?

At this point, if I pass the OCLT, I think I will be done, as the CC has been below 0.5 the evening of day 2, and the water is clearer than I've ever seen it. Then the next step will be the Mustard Algae slam for 24 hours.

Once that is done, how low do I need to let the chlorine get to be safe for swimming?

And finally, when I am out of town for several days at a time, what is the best practice for keeping the Chlorine levels up? I don't really have anyone I can ask to come test and add chlorine...

View attachment 63594

 

[tim5055]

Well, at this point my pool has never looked better since we bought the house last September!

I love hearing this!!

Since I am gone all day, I have been overshooting the chlorine in the morning to make sure the drop during the day does not take it below the Target FC of 25. (~32 in the pre-dawn morning dropping to ~26 in the late afternoon/evening). Is this a correct approach since no one is at home to add during the day?

As long as you are not overshooting too much then it works.

Once that is done, how low do I need to let the chlorine get to be safe for swimming?

It is safe to swim up to Shock/Slam level. So, if shock is 20, then 19 and below is fine.

And finally, when I am out of town for several days at a time, what is the best practice for keeping the Chlorine levels up? I don't really have anyone I can ask to come test and add chlorine..

This is where lower CYA helps. If the CYA is lower, then you have headroom to float 3" tabs for vacation planning. Next comes automated systems, salt water chlorine generators and Stenner pumps. They keep working when you are out of town. Lastly is the shock before you go method. The last thing you do before you go is bring the pool up to shock level. For a couple/few days it will be slowly working back down to normal chlorine levels so you are safe. Once your SLAM Process is done see how long it takes for yopur pool to drift back down to your target level.

 

[JDFester]

View attachment 63765 . View attachment 63766

WOW! What a difference a week can make! We should be swimming tomorrow! Thank you all for all of the help in getting to this point!

Passed the OCLT on Tuesday night, and cranked the FC to Mustard level at 5:30 Wedensday morning. Wednesday afternoon, vacuumed and brushed again (just got my new whale-tail wall brush from TFTestKits.net ... LOVE IT! Where have you been all my life?!?), and then submerged all toys and tools in the pool for about 2 hours, and then maintained M-SLAM level overnight. (I could not figure out a way to sink the cover, any ideas? If not I will replace it when the weather cools off this fall, but thought it might be nice to be able to put it on when we leave on vacation to slow the FC loss to sunlight...)

This morning, verified that the FC was still right where I left it last night (had dropped 0.5ppm, but still passing OCLT even with such highly elevated Chlorine). Had very direct sun all day, and FC has dropped back almost to standard SLAM level now.

Am I correct to assume that the FC drop to sun will slow down as the levels near the maintenance level? I may have to leave for 36-48 hours this weekend, and don't want it to drop to/past min levels in that time ... doubt it would, but wanted to ask those with experience...

Thank you again for all of the help! I never thought this pool could look this good! Makes me that much more anxious to get the surface re-done one day!

(Anyone have a fiberglass pool resealed and have any pointers/recommendations? It is showing a few surface cracks, and the original owners had a terrible paint job done that has about 50% washed away, though haven't seen it deteriorate since we're here, so it may have all washed off when they filled it, or been eaten by whatever grew in the pool in the year it sat empty in foreclosure before the former owners bought it in 2009...)

 

[tim5055]

Am I correct to assume that the FC drop to sun will slow down as the levels near the maintenance level? I may have to leave for 36-48 hours this weekend, and don't want it to drop to/past min levels in that time ... doubt it would, but wanted to ask those with experience...

Yes, it will continue dropping but will continue to zero if you don't add. If you are going away for 36-48 hours you want to bring it up to shock level again before you go.

It's looking real good!

At this point you and liquid chlorine will become good friends. After a couple of weeks testing you will get to the point that you know how much chlorine to add each day and may slack off testing to every second, maybe even third day sometimes. Just remember, pool parties, hot/sunny days can use more chlorine so remember to teat and adjust accordingly.

You are close to HOTlanta, so enjoy the pool!