Total pad renovation advice on SW conversion

[B-Double-U]

Hello everyone!
I find myself here after buying a "new to us" home with a pool. I know...a novelty here I am sure! lol
If I get any terms wrong, please feel free to correct. I have thick skin.

I would appreciate some advice and here is some info I have compiled on what I think "can" be done. Pictures included.

The pool needed a liner severely, so I have been maintaining it as frugal as possible getting used to performing bare minimum maintenance to keep algae at bay until the pool is drained and the new liner installed. We are not currently swimming in it. It looked like lake water a short time ago, so I am getting the hang of balancing things.

Pool is 16x32, 3ft to 8ft deep @21120 gallons. Pretty standard old school pool I imagine.
1 HP single speed no name pump
(2 jets) 1 jet on each corner by the stairs.
Jet 1 @50FT from pump, Jet 2 @65FT from pump.

1 high pressure outlet by the pool ladder @45FT from pump currently attached to 3/4HP booster.

1 skimmer on the ladder side corner @34FT from pump.
1 main drain @50 from pump(adding in the 8FT depth, then 8FT over).

Once liner is installed, I have great aspirations of converting to salt water myself and replacing everything on the pad and cleaning up around the pad. As a firefighter, I am super efficient at tearing things up and somewhat dangerous putting it all back together. Depending on who you ask.

I have potentially selected the following components at $3060-$3335 + tax and shipping:

Pump: Circupool Smartflo 1.5 THP variable speed pump - *It is only $100 more for a 2 THP and "may" be useful for my goal*(I know, rookie assumption, but hear me out)
Chlorinator: Circupool CORE35 or CORE55 - 35000 or 55000 gallon max
Prefilter: Circupool TJ-16
Cartridge filter: Circupool CJ2750 - 270sqft - 34000 gallons max - 54000 combined with prefilter.


Here are the issues:
1. 1.5" plumbing - New equipment is set up for 2". Bet you never expected that and I have dumbfounded you all!
2. Jet returns not ran separately and are split I presume around the closest jet and not easily accessible without tearing up concrete that is 3x the cost it used to be.
3. The current pump does not hold a prime when turned off and I am thinking its because there does not appear to be a check valve?
4. Pressure cleaning port and booster pump not needed. I will use suction from skimmer with vac and brush until I financially recover and research a sexy bot.
5. Wall timer no longer needed. New pump has timer and will run 24/7.

Here are what I think are good solutions:
s1. Install new 2" plumbing above ground(pad).
s2. Dig as far as I can to concrete to see if returns happen to split before and make a separate run to pump. (doubt it, but digging is free)
s3. Install check valve before pump.
s4. Convert cleaning port to standard return Jet.
s5. Remove pins from old timer and leave manual turn off in place just in case and wire chlorinator to where booster is currently wired.


Questions:
A. Is 2" plumbing above ground with 1.5" in ground have any negatives to consider vs using reducers at all equipment inlets and outlets?

B. Any other place I need a check valve with the new equipment other than before pump?

C. I already have a waste pipe plumbed and plan to keep it, so just need a diverter valve before filter right?

D. Is conversion of pressure port to return jet as easy as changing the wall outlet and modifying the hose by booster to PVC?

E. What is a good choice for the valve on the suction side? Would it not be better to have a 3 port valve where the T socket is now vs each supply line having an individual shut off before the T as pictured? Is there a more efficient way/valve to mitigate T flow inefficiency?

F. Same question on return side. If I find and run a separate line for each Jet and include the converted cleaning port to jet, is there a more efficient 4 port valve?

G. Would it be better if I did not worry about the current 2 jets being split, roll with it and just stick with converting cleaning port so have 2 suction lines and 2 return lines with one of them being split to prevent return pressure issues?

H. In either return line scenario, going from a 1HP single speed to 1.5THP variable pump is probably not an issue, but should I spring another $100 for a 2THP variable and tune the RPMs or is it just a waste?

Thank you so much in advance if you made it this far and any assistance or other suggestions you can provide.

 

[Texas Splash]

Welcome to TFP and congrats on the new pool. I'll start with a few comments and let others follow:
- I'm not convinced you need a check valve. With that older equipment, I suspect there's an air leak getting IN which is dislodging and moving the water around when you turn it off. However if you do want one, having it before the pump should be fine.
- You look to have a good selection of equipment, and I think the 1.5 HP should be plenty.
- Converting from 1.5" to 2" at the pad should work well.
- It's common for return jets to be plumbed on the same line and branch-off at the pool under the decking. Not sure I see the benefit digging unless you suspect a line is bad.
- Converting the pressure line to a return jet should be a good mod for your pool.

Hope that helps get this discussion going. More opinions to follow I'm sure.

 

[Texas Splash]

Oh, and consider leaving room on your pad return line for a salt water generator at some point. You'll enjoy the convenience of SWG chlorination.

Disregard - you already mentioned that.

 

[1poolman1]

You have a Hayward Super Pump. The "high pressure" jet you speak of is the port for a pressure side cleaner like a Polaris 280. That pump should not be run without a cleaner attached.
The larger the hp of a VSP the slower you can run it to get the same water flow saving energy.

 

[B-Double-U]

Welcome to TFP and congrats on the new pool. I'll start with a few comments and let others follow:
- I'm not convinced you need a check valve. With that older equipment, I suspect there's an air leak getting IN which is dislodging and moving the water around when you turn it off. However if you do want one, having it before the pump should be fine.
- You look to have a good selection of equipment, and I think the 1.5 HP should be plenty.
- Converting from 1.5" to 2" at the pad should work well.
- It's common for return jets to be plumbed on the same line and branch-off at the pool under the decking. Not sure I see the benefit digging unless you suspect a line is bad.
- Converting the pressure line to a return jet should be a good mod for your pool.

Hope that helps get this discussion going. More opinions to follow I'm sure.

Thank you Tex! For the congrats and comments.

I do not suspect there is any leakage in the run. Water drops when sunny about 1/4 inch-ish and perhaps more on very hot days, so if splitting the returns is common, I will holster the shovel.

After backwashing the DE filter, I think the pressure gauge on top may be leaking and its always stuck at 20 PSI so obviously not working. Since I am switching over to canister, Ill deal with it a few more weeks. The basket access on the top of the pump gives me a spray on my shoes when I fire it up so you are probably spot on that is the issue with it not holding a prime when off.

I am still up in the air on the pump....Everything I have read suggests I can just throttle back the pump and still have the more inefficient and greater water flow if I wanted it there, but if I set it right it will be just as or more economical than a 1.5THP because of the bigger impeller moving more water at lower speeds? It really would not be much more than running the 1 speed 1HP pump and 1 speed 3/4HP booster in theory. My background in hydraulics is pushing out more GPMs at far less efficient pressures vs the more tame approach of pool turnover.

I am not sure if the pump or chlorinator display flow readings so I was thinking about a flow gauge in and out just to be nerdy about it.

Thanks so much again!

 

[B-Double-U]

You have a Hayward Super Pump. The "high pressure" jet you speak of is the port for a pressure side cleaner like a Polaris 280. That pump should not be run without a cleaner attached.
The larger the hp of a VSP the slower you can run it to get the same water flow saving energy.

Thanks Poolman, everything I read suggests that and for $100 more....I figured why not.

Little jealous you have a spa, so Im thinking with a big enough pump I can crank her up to a 21000 gallon spa! With no heat though...back to the drawing board. lol

Is converting the pressure cleaning jet to a regular one as simple as changing over to rigid plumbing and connecting up top and hanging the outlet at the pool?

 

[1poolman1]

Get rid of the two ball valves in the suction line and replace with a 3-way Jandy. If you want to continue to have control over each line independently, get 2 Jandy 2-way valves. The ball valves you have now will fail and can't be repaired.
Bringing everything above ground up to 2" never hurts.
You can connect the return plumbing (filter out) to the line the hose is connected to and it will become a third return. For the fitting in the pool get a fitting that threads in and has an adjustable "eyeball" that can direct water to the floor. That way you don't disrupt water going to the skimmer and get better chemical distribution to the pool. Without that you will get a current directly across the pool that will not allow debris to get to the skimmer.

Hayward SP1419D​

 

[Jimrahbe]

BUU,

You don't need...

A check valve in front of the pump
A flow gauge
A pre-filter

I vote to for the larger pump
I'd replace the ball valves with 2-way Jandy valves
Plumbing with 2" above ground won't hurt, but won't help either.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[B-Double-U]

Get rid of the two ball valves in the suction line and replace with a 3-way Jandy. If you want to continue to have control over each line independently, get 2 Jandy 2-way valves. The ball valves you have now will fail and can't be repaired.
Bringing everything above ground up to 2" never hurts.
You can connect the return plumbing (filter out) to the line the hose is connected to and it will become a third return. For the fitting in the pool get a fitting that threads in and has an adjustable "eyeball" that can direct water to the floor. That way you don't disrupt water going to the skimmer and get better chemical distribution to the pool. Without that you will get a current directly across the pool that will not allow debris to get to the skimmer.

Hayward SP1419D​

10-4 On Jandy. Thanks Poolman!
The valve on the supply line from the drain is in bad shape and will break if I were to try and close it, so yea something more durable will be needed.

Good info on the eye, makes sense. I have both jets pointed up so I can see that they are flowing and did not think about currents and disrupting the skimmer.

 

[B-Double-U]

BUU,

You don't need...

A check valve in front of the pump
A flow gauge
A pre-filter

I vote to for the larger pump
I'd replace the ball valves with 2-way Jandy valves
Plumbing with 2" above ground won't hurt, but won't help either.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Roger on the check valve Jim. Thank you. I will probably remove it from the equation.

The flow gauge for sure, totally agree not needed. I thought I might as well nerd it up.......however I will probably 86 as well. There is zero return on investment.

Prefilter is pretty much given with the other components via the packages they offer. Between it, the sock and the skim-a-round I may never have to clean the filter or change the chlorinator cell EVER! Patents pending. "B-Dub-o-matic"

I am really leaning heavily toward the larger pump as well.

Thats 2 votes for Jandy valves, so I will definitely look that way.

On the plumbing, I agree to some extent in that it will not hurt. I think it will help though. I think it will make the top side more efficient and will have a return on investment. I just would not know how to prove it...lol.
Reason being is that expansion and then contraction of flow from 2" unions on Pump, prefilter, filter and chlorinator will not only create friction loss and turbulence. My theory is it will make the pump work harder to push it through and increase the velocity and PSI in the filter which may squeeze that one water bug particle that starts the next virus...I do not want that on my conscience!

Thanks again Jim! I appreciate the comments.

 

[Jimrahbe]

BUU,

I know from actual experience, that adding 2" plumbing at the equipment pad will not make any difference in the way your pool works. That said, having the pad being all 2" does make it easier to plumb and does not hurt anything.

If you are using a skim-around now, then something is wrong with your pool. Not sure what, but they are another solution to a problem that should not exist in a normal pool.

Our job is to give you advice. Your job is to run your pool the way you want..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Newdude]

I am really leaning heavily toward the larger pump as well.

Lean further. Further than that. UGH. Fine. I'll do it.




Bigger pump = less energy to move the same water. It will be a big long term benefit, literally paying for itself.

I just would not know how to prove

You can't. And it won't help long term. In the short term it *will* help with not needing reducers for the equipment. If it helps you sleep better at night afterwards, then it's a heckuvalot cheaper than going to the Dr for sleeping meds. Overengineer at will.

 

[B-Double-U]

BUU,

I know from actual experience, that adding 2" plumbing at the equipment pad will not make any difference in the way your pool works. That said, having the pad being all 2" does make it easier to plumb and does not hurt anything.

If you are using a skim-around now, then something is wrong with your pool. Not sure what, but they are another solution to a problem that should not exist in a normal pool.

Our job is to give you advice. Your job is to run your pool the way you want..

Thanks,

Jim R.

I believe you Jim and any difference is probably negligible at the pressure and volumes being run in a pool system, so I guess we can just stick with is easier to do 2" lol. I know enough to know what I do not know. haha

Skim-a-round came with the pool. I added the sock. I have put in the original basket to see the difference and it will trap just fine and even create a vortex at times. The problem with using the stock skimmer basket is there no skimmer door and debris in the skimmer will come back out into the pool when the pump is off and it does not with the restrictor on top of the skim-a-round that creates the bigger vortex. Do not think it adds any extra suction or anything, just keeps the debris trapped.

Still in the honeymoon stage where I love my new pool boy job.....hope it stays that way!

 

[B-Double-U]

Lean further. Further than that. UGH. Fine. I'll do it.


View attachment 420767

Bigger pump = less energy to move the same water. It will be a big long term benefit, literally paying for itself.

You can't. And it won't help long term. In the short term it *will* help with not needing reducers for the equipment. If it helps you sleep better at night afterwards, then it's a heckuvalot cheaper than going to the Dr for sleeping meds. Overengineer at will.

Haha dude.

Challenge accepted! I very well might start a gofundme page to raise money to see if I can prove or disprove............ or ask the doc for stronger meds! lol

Seriously though, like I said above, at typical pool pressures and flow rates it may be negligible. I make so many spot decisions in tricky situations that when I get a chance to overthink, I do it right!

Thank you for comments! I am back on the dock to bigger-pumpsville.

 

[Newdude]

I am back on the dock to bigger-pumpsville.

It's crazy. For decades you didn't want too big of a SS pump because you'd be wasting gobs of energy. But now you want to oversize the VS pump to run it slower to save energy and its completely backwards.
There is a fine line of cost effective for smaller pumps of course, but for most folks, the big ones pay off nicely.

 

[B-Double-U]

It's crazy. For decades you didn't want too big of a SS pump because you'd be wasting gobs of energy. But now you want to oversize the VS pump to run it slower to save energy and its completely backwards.
There is a fine line of cost effective for smaller pumps of course, but for most folks, the big ones pay off nicely.

You know, testing could show algae is healthy to swim in, detoxifies the body, can be used as a food source for most creatures, fertilizer and should be allowed to live their lives in peace in our pools. We will be adding algaenator and chlorocide. The all SWG will be banned. Vinyl lined man-made lakes are the future!!

The fine line on the pumps for me is $100 from 1.5THP to 2.0THP........$400 from 1.5THP to 3 THP...nope. That could be another gofundme page though to test the diminishing return spot for bigger VSP.

Who ever thought just owning my first pool would lead to quitting my job and early gofundme retirement!

Really though, by the time the new liner gets in and I get converted, we should be through 3 billing cycles so I should have a pretty good idea the impact of electricity if significant, so we will see.

 

[Newdude]

The fine line on the pumps for me is $100 from 1.5THP to 2.0THP........$400 from 1.5THP to 3 THP...nope.

I think this is a great balance of ROI. The 3HP would have to last much longer recoup the investment.

 

[Jimrahbe]

there no skimmer door and debris in the skimmer will come back out i

BUU,

The door in the skimmer is called a weir door. Its main purpose to make the skimmer... wait for it... SKIM.

The weir door makes the surface water go into the skimmer, and the surface water is where all the debris are floating. Without a weir door, there is very little skimming action. Skimmers without weir doors are about 50% less efficient than they are with an operating weir door.

Also, as you have noted, any debris that do get in the skimmer can come right back out with wave action.

They sell spring-loaded universal weir doors. I have a couple at two rent house pools that have been working great for 8 to 10 years.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[B-Double-U]

BUU,

The door in the skimmer is called a weir door. Its main purpose to make the skimmer... wait for it... SKIM.

The weir door makes the surface water go into the skimmer, and the surface water is where all the debris are floating. Without a weir door, there is very little skimming action. Skimmers without weir doors are about 50% less efficient than they are with an operating weir door.

Also, as you have noted, any debris that do get in the skimmer can come right back out with wave action.

They sell spring-loaded universal weir doors. I have a couple at two rent house pools that have been working great for 8 to 10 years.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Ahh, Thanks a million Jim. I had not bothered researching the skimmer entry. Perhaps when replacing the liner I can have a entry with a weir put in or universal door at very least. I assume they have to remove it to redo the liner anyways and I am not home to look and see how complicated it looks.

I swapped back in the stock basket because the skim-a-round kept floating when the pump stopped and did not reseat correctly when the pump restarted if I did not manually adjust. The spinning vortex looks cooler though!